Fallout's Forgotten Revolution

Discussion in 'NMA News and Information' started by Per, Jul 8, 2010.

  1. Per

    Per Vault Consort Staff Member Admin

    Apr 1, 2004
    Sol Invictus has written an article for Hellmode blog on the topic of pushing the big brown CRPG envelope.<blockquote>I am not saying Deus Ex and Morrowind are not good games. I am saying that it is simply difficult to call them revolutionary. They are RPGs hampered by the lack of any meaningful choices. Featuring a system of choices and repercussions, Dragon Age is a forward leap in terms of player agency, but it still lacks narrative freedom.

    Fallout is only linear in the sense that the sun will always rise in the east, and set in the west. In the same sense, the player will always have to retrieve the Water Chip to save Vault 13, and The Master’s supermutant army will always threaten to overrun the wastes.

    But what happens during the day, between the time when the Vault Dweller walks out into the wastes and returns home thereafter is completely up to the player. The player’s footprint has a visible impact in the wasteland sand. In the protagonist’s shoes, your choices are only ever limited by objective reasons within the narrative, which are never arbitrary.</blockquote>The cause is just, but the article mostly reminisces about specific options offered in Fallout, memories which are not all accurate - and why no mention of Arcanum?
  2. PaladinHeart

    PaladinHeart Mildly Dipped

    Jan 20, 2004
    Maybe because then the article would have to be named "Fallout & Arcanum's Forgotten Revolution"?

    Maybe because the article is named "Fallout's Forgotten Revolution"?

    Maybe the author didn't think Arcanum was all that revolutionary?

    Or maybe he hasn't played or maybe didn't even like Arcanum?
  3. Per

    Per Vault Consort Staff Member Admin

    Apr 1, 2004
    Probably not, unless the current article would really have to be named "Fallout's and also Fallout 2's but not Morrowind's or Deus Ex's Forgotten Revolution".

    "Fallout was one of two games offering this much freedom. The other was Fallout 2."

    I doubt that; couldn't know for sure, of course. In any case that wasn't what the article was about.
  4. PaladinHeart

    PaladinHeart Mildly Dipped

    Jan 20, 2004
    Hmm... well someone could always email them and ask about Arcanum. xP

    Also, it's unfortunate that most games with the amount of freedom you find in Fallout seem to have hidden time limits. Kinda limits your freedom but adds some replay value, considering most people won't keep a backup save from 100+ days earlier. It can be extremely discouraging to the player though.

    [spoiler:68247e6c68]Blade of Destiny.. too bad I just can't get as interested in it as I was all those years ago. There's just something utterly annoying about missing & failing (repeatedly & much more often than in a D&D based game, at that!) with near perfect pre-generated characters.[/spoiler:68247e6c68]
  5. terebikun

    terebikun Still Mildly Glowing

    May 16, 2008
    How's that? Isn't their whole point is that before and since RPGs haven't had as much choice and consequence as Fallout? That it's "forgotten"? Moreover, if you're going to say that Morrowind and Deus Ex aren't revolutionary, you need to clarify "in the sense of narrative freedom."
  6. TheBearPaw

    TheBearPaw First time out of the vault

    Feb 16, 2010
    Deus Ex is not really a true RPG, but a damn true revolutionary game it fuckin' is! Lack of meaningful choices? :evil: Did that fucka even play DX?
  7. Barrett

    Barrett Still Mildly Glowing

    Jun 8, 2007
    Exactly my thoughts.
  8. Public

    Public Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    May 18, 2006
    Deus Ex's story was based on choices the player makes. You could always choose between different ways of the story, but if you have done something already you cannot change (letting your brother die for example), you cannot go back and you have to carry on the way things are unfolding now.
  9. PaladinHeart

    PaladinHeart Mildly Dipped

    Jan 20, 2004
    I understood the "lack of meaningful choices" was referring to the fact that regardless of what you do in Deus Ex, it has no real effect later on in the game since you basically have 4 possible endings, based on what you do at the end of the game.

    Also.. it's possible to save your brother? I was thinking that he ends up getting killed regardless of what you do.

    This especially reminds me of the first choice you have in the game:
    1. Kill the target but be forced to be a renegade later on anyway.
    2. Refuse to kill the target, but an enemy boss kills them instead.
    3. Refuse to kill the target and kill the enemy boss.

    Regardless of which option you choose, you have to fight that boss at some point later in the game if you don't kill them now. Also, the assassination target seems pretty irrelevant aside from pretend character development (which is hollow since, as I said, there are only 4 possible endings anyway.. all of which were pretty sucky IMO).

    You can also go through the game killing everyone and anyone that it is possible to kill and there will still be little to no effect on the story... I think :P My last playthrough was going something like that but I think I got bored due to lack of story differences.
  10. WorstUsernameEver

    WorstUsernameEver But best title ever!

    May 28, 2010
    The real strength of Deus Ex is the gameplay variety and the level design, not the story.
    I don't even think that the devs marketed it as an RPG (correct me if I'm wrong) so I don't see why I should expect meaningful choices a-là Fallout.
  11. alec

    alec White heterosexual male Orderite

    May 21, 2003

    For an article with that sort of a title, this article just doesn't deliver.
  12. TheBearPaw

    TheBearPaw First time out of the vault

    Feb 16, 2010
    Are ya nuts? Deus Ex's story was absolutely amazing!! Intelligent! Brilliant! Breathtaking!
  13. Nark

    Nark Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Dec 6, 2008
    Deus Ex revolved heavily around your choices to make changes to things all over.

    If you go into the woman's bathroom in UNATCO HQ you get told off by Manderley later on. :D I always loved this little bit.
  14. coliphorbs

    coliphorbs Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Jun 2, 2008
    I think you guys are confusing "meaningful choices" - which both games have at about a similar dose - with "linear": Deus Ex is a linear game in the sense that you will always go through the same order of events (more or less, depending on your choices) and have the plot revealed through a set narrative, whereas in Fallout you will discover the world and plot through your own means and pacing.
  15. Cimmerian Nights

    Cimmerian Nights So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Aug 20, 2004
    Deus Ex does have a great story, from an RPG perspective though, it's lacking in C&C. From a story standpoint Rex is right, the game is ride-the-rails linear until the last 5 minutes. There are no appreciable effects to the gameworld based on your decisions.

    Even from a gameplay standpoint, the choices tend be be somewhat false. Things feel forced when each area conveniently has a airduct grate right next to a locked door or guarded corridor. Don't judge it as a RPG, but a hybrid with RPG elements.
  16. Public

    Public Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    May 18, 2006
    I also think they weren't aiming for the RPG spirit, a pure Hybrid- more likely, where the player can basically have more fun.
    Hate when people call DX an RPG, when even the devs weren't sayingit.

    But DX is more an RPG than FO3 IMO :P
  17. Cimmerian Nights

    Cimmerian Nights So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Aug 20, 2004
    They're nice touches (saving Paul etc.) but the effect on the world is very superficial and cosmetic, there's no appreciable consequences. Beyond the verbal acknowledgment, the subsequent gameplay is exactly the same regardless of your choice.
  18. Lynette

    Lynette It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jan 9, 2010
    Funny thing is that in my first playthrough I always had the feel things could have gone different. Great game indeed.
  19. mor

    mor Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    Jun 18, 2010
    fallout is none linear because fallout doesnt have a main story its all side quest and you can finish FO in less than 30 mins.

    this simply cannot work in modern games, as there is just to much content for the players to lose sight of the plot(which is usually more complex than find the geek and then additional dialogue option to ask do you know where the geek and pointed to vault city or regarded as stupid tribal) this is especially true in open world games.
  20. tekhedd

    tekhedd Hoarding ammo IS gameplay

    Oct 28, 2008
    In other words, judge Deus Ex using the standards by which we are expected to judge Fallout 3. Actually that's kind of interesting.

    (Of course, by those standards Deus Ex succeeds nicely.)