Five Lessons Fallout 4 Can Learn From Skyrim

Discussion in 'NMA News and Information' started by WorstUsernameEver, Nov 29, 2011.

  1. shihonage

    shihonage Made in USSR

    May 8, 2007
    About "faster disengaging from dialogue" thing.

    The moment you start doing something serious with dialogue, you run into situations where the player should not be able to just terminate the conversation without tracing through the "goodbye" branch that is currently available to him.

    This "goodbye" branch may not be the same as in the root of the conversation.

    "Walking from dialogue" only works for simplistic, unambitious dialogue engines, where NPCs are mostly used as infodumps on Prozac.
     
  2. Surf Solar

    Surf Solar So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Aug 20, 2009
    I was about to say the same. Disabling "0 or esc to close dialog" was the first thing i wanted in my game. ;D

    Just imagine you stand right before the Master, have your final speech with him, you are in the middle of an argument (and 3 potential variables changing dialog nodes). Would it really be a clever idea to enable "lol just press 0 so you can run away"? ;)

    Even without this issue, I don't see how this is an amazing feauture only Bethesda is capable of to invent....


    That's pretty much spot on for Skyrim though.
     
  3. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Seriously, what? What game did you play? Did you even started any sidequests at all? or made an alternate run? and what is an Indepentantist? the main quest is enriched by completing sidequests and stuff, helping the NCR in sidequests while completing a non-NCR run changes the outcome of the game than doing the opposite or anything in between.

    Now on the subject of side content, I actually like when games have things like documents, books, stories, holotapes, etc. But I couldn't read most of them in Skyrim, whose idea was to use that ugly font for the books? basic Desing classes, that kind of font should not be used for large texts, it looks ugly, and it tires the eye, I would say "I hope they change the font for a mod" but book pages are obviously meshes and they would need to redo them all over to change the fonts so yeah.
     
  4. Goweigus

    Goweigus Mildly Dipped

    566
    Jan 18, 2007
    So that is why I couldn't enjoy the books!
     
  5. UncannyGarlic

    UncannyGarlic Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Feb 6, 2008
    Obviously when it's a confrontational dialogue you shouldn't be able to just walk away. Since most conversations with NPCs are neither vital nor confrontational and do tend to be info pumps, most conversations should allow you to simply walk away rather than click through them to get to the close dialogue button. Also since most RPGs neither have much in the way of specific NPC reputation, it further provides incentive for this feature. As I'm playing through New Vegas currently, I haven't run into many dialogues that couldn't be walked away from just fine.

    In what way? I know from what I've read that there are randomly generated quests and given that people have complained about doing them for long lengths of time without realizing that they were randomly generated. If there is an error, feel free to correct it.

    The biggest flaw with Modern Warfare's singleplayer campaign is the number of sections that are faux interactive (any is too many and they have a number of them). It could have harder difficulty modes, the level design is quite average, the AI is average, average combat, the controls are tight, and the UI is functional. I'll take that over fucked up level scaling, bad level design when it's not randomly generated and horrible level design when it is, bad AI, bad combat, and controls that are a hassle to remap, tons of bugs and capatibility issues, and bad UI. What does Skyrim actually do well? A few well designed quests thrown in with a jumble of crap quest design? Modern Warfare looks worse by comparison with it's peers because it's in a flooded genre. Skyrim looks good by comparison to it's peers because it's peers are the previous Bethesda games.

    Thanks goes to whoever posted the Mega Man video of his. The two points I posted are especially true in Bethesda games but replace "backtracking" with free roaming.
     
  6. fatfree

    fatfree First time out of the vault

    4
    Mar 15, 2008
    God, and I thought IGN was a somewhat intelligent website.

    I disagree with pretty much everything that the author said. His argument for a more vague morality system is just dumb. I'll say this, I do enjoy Skyrim. I think it's a good game, but I just don't enjoy it as much as something like New Vegas, one of the reasons being that morality really doesn't matter. I'm the champion of several evil Daedric princes, yet I'm still somehow a saint. I'm also the leader of the Companion guild, a group of people who are responsible for, at least unofficially, being a force of good (killing bandits, taking care of wild animals, etc.) - yet I'm also the leader of the Thief Guild and a member of the Dark Brotherhood. This should not be possible. I find myself doing stupid things like killing random people just because I know that it won't matter for anything. And I mean, sure, that's fun, but it's not really something an RPG should be about. It's fine for something like GTA or Saints' Row (both of which I enjoy as well) but it ultimately isn't very satisfying. I am also a little bit bothered by the lack of quests that have opposing options. (like siding with one person over another) I notice myself doing quests for people I don't really side with because I see no alternative, and not doing them would just be boring. (partially the reason why I've done so many "evil" quests)

    The skill leveling system is also incredibly dumb. I enjoyed it at first, because it made a little bit of sense that doing a lot of something like attacking or lockpicking would raise your skill in that field, but how exactly does getting hit by something increase your skill in armor? It's also highly exploitable - I leveled up my smithing nearly to 100 in five minutes (I stopped at like 80 because I felt bad) by continually making iron daggers. Onto the next point! I thought that the author's point about linearity was moot. In both Fallout and Skyrim, the worlds may be very open-ended, but as soon as you enter a dungeon, there's really only one way to go. Saying that Fallout 3 was very linear at the beginning was sort of a useless thing to say.

    I'm also up for a more interesting world, but I fail to see how Skyrim was any more interesting. There are three main types of dungeons, and pretty much 95% of the locations in the game fall under these: underground burial lairs (filled with draugrs, kinda like zombies), dwemer ruins, or forts filled with bandits. And... I suppose that I do kind of agree on the graphics, but mostly because the old Gamebryo engine was so terrible. FO3 and NV looked like they were from 2004, pretty much all the humanoid characters had incredibly inorganic movement. Skyrim fixed this to some extent.

    Overall the article had the feel of someone being forced to type up "improvements" for FO4 on the fly - didn't feel very thought out. It kind of reminded me of some of the papers I wrote in my college days, the day before.

    Edit: Just because I see people debating how good Skyrim was versus Fallout 3 (or at least I think that's what people were saying? I just skimmed the last page), here's my ranking:

    NV > Skyrim > FO3

    I don't think you can deny that Skyrim is a good game. It's not Fallout, and that does sadden me, but calling it an inadequate RPG is wrong. (and if this is inadequate, what are jRPGs?) And for all its faults, I do enjoy it a lot more than FO3.
     
  7. gumbarrel

    gumbarrel It Wandered In From the Wastes

    159
    Oct 18, 2010
    Comparing Skyrim with Modern Warfare, or any other FPS for that matter, is just moronic. Stop doing it!
     
  8. Vik

    Vik It Wandered In From the Wastes

    130
    Jan 6, 2011
    Those people are idiots. The game has an incredible amount of side quests with actual stories and unique loot and whatnot. There's also small quests that are marked as miscellaneous, which include small story quests (like convincing a father that his son should be an adventurer) and those random generated quests which simply say kill a bandit leader/giant/etc or clear out a cave/dungeon/castle/ect. You get those quests by entering an Inn and asking the bar man for work. I have no idea how on earth did these people you mention not realize that a quest that's marked as miscellaneous and simply asks you to kill somebody won't turn into an epic tale. More than that, unlike Oblivion, all of the dungeons are hand made and are incredibly beautiful and often have some small story to them or even a hidden shout or special piece of loot, making even a generated quest interesting and rewarding. Hell, the idea behind those quests is to send player to explore interesting locations they have yet to find, so I see nothing wrong with it.

    Again, Skyrim is actually shockingly better than Oblivion and F3, making it very enjoyable even if you didn't like those games. I was really disappointed with Oblivion because of its generic fantasy feel and a broken level system, but it's simply not the case with Skyrim. 50 hours in, I still want to play more and more.

    And maybe it is because you don't play many current gen games, but the current trend is linear, script heavy and short campaigns compensated by recycled multiplayer. A game like Skyrim with its freedom is an incredible breath of fresh air, which is why I'm willing to overlook some of its flaws. I know some of you here hate Bethesda for F3 and all, but Skyrim is actually very good and worth checking out instead of believing a bunch of bitter people with their absurd complaints.
     
  9. tekhedd

    tekhedd Hoarding ammo IS gameplay

    206
    Oct 28, 2008
    It's not important what "everyone" likes. These days, all that's important is this: if 80% of potential buyers like Skyrim better than NV, then Skyrim is better, and therefore Fallout 4 should be like Skyrim.

    Marketing doesn't care about quality, aesthetics, replayability, fun, art, especially not art... All Marketing cares about is the 80%. Now that Fallout is a big time property, it has nowhere to go but mediocre.
     
  10. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    What does that have anything to do with the context of the message?
     
  11. Surf Solar

    Surf Solar So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Aug 20, 2009
    Apparently I am an idiot too, because in all the time playing Skyrim I haven't found a quest which wasn't cringeworthy, badly written or simply one of the thousand fetch/gokill quests. Would you care to link us to some of those amazing quests?

    BTW it doesn't matter if all those dungeons are "handmade" if they all play and feel the same, are just one huge corridor with an exit sign at the end in 90% of the cases and consist of 3 themes throughout the entire game. Only a guy saying "you must be this tall to enter the dungeon" is missing at the entrances.
     
  12. DemonNick

    DemonNick It Wandered In From the Wastes

    141
    Feb 17, 2010
    The thing about Skyrim is that it has a lot of 'epic' quests with oodles of story to them, and its dungeons are generally pretty well designed and highly atmospheric, albeit repetitive. But the thing is, even though there's a lot to do, the quests are very linear and don't really give you much choice in how to do them. In addition, most of the storytelling is done through dialogue dumps or reading long books, which can get pretty tedious.

    I think that when designing Skyrim they went for quantity over quality, and I don't think that's necessarily bad. Arguably it might even be a better approach when it comes to fostering replayability since doing a new quest one way is more novel than doing an old quest in a different way for most people. Obviously a lot of people on here (me included) aren't most people.
     
  13. Lexx

    Lexx Testament to the ghoul lifespan
    Moderator Modder

    Apr 24, 2005
    This reminds me of this one door + claw puzzle. First I thought it's a pretty fancy idea. Then I visited a dungeon with the same puzzle again and I thought, oh well, I know how this works! And then I found it again in another two dungeons... by now it's not even a puzzle anymore, just a timewaste. This is how you can turn something nice into something annoying.
     
  14. Surf Solar

    Surf Solar So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Aug 20, 2009
    Yeah. The biggest joke is that the solution to the puzzles can be found in the very same rooms, just by looking left and right. :roll:

    The only puzzle I had to think a bit was the one in one of those dwemer ruins, you first had to shoot ice and fire on one of those crystals, then allign them to the lightsources to unlock a door.

    That was really cool and enjoyable. I stumbled upon another dwemer ruin, and guess what happened... It was exactly the same puzzle, same example as you described.

    Someone said here they have gone quantity over quality, and it really shows in the game.

    If they'd had cut 3/4 of the content and make the game tighter, it would've been so much better.
     
  15. UncannyGarlic

    UncannyGarlic Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Feb 6, 2008
    The level system is still broken from all I've read and I'm sure it's better than Oblivion, that isn't a hard task. That said, Oblivion was, at it's core, a combat-centered dungeon crawl with a heavy focus on loot that handled neither particularly well. It sounds like Skyrim does a better job on the loot but the combat still sounds like it's bad. When the a core element of your game is bad, there's a major problem.

    I don't give a flaming fuck who made the game and I really don't care that it's a different type of game if it isn't executed well. Sure, most FPSes follow the same less than stellar formula for their campaigns and they are woefully short but they are still well done. CoD's biggest problem (it's a problem in general with games) is that it treats the player like an idiot numerous times. That said, the level design is solid, if generally uninspired (there were some high points in Black Ops), the AI is reasonable (uses some cover and strategy, though it's predictable), the controls are tight, and the combat experience is good. All in all the singleplayer is average quallity and while that is tiring in such a saturated market, it's still better than a poor singleplayer experience. The multiplayer is also quite well done, probably better than the singleplayer, which is a plus, even if it is slightly improved versions of the same game every time.

    The main problem with the Modern Warfare games isn't their quality, which is average, it's the value. They really should all be stand-alone expansions and be released at $30 instead of $50. They're also stagnant, they really aren't making many improvements (the multiplayer maps in the original were the best) and they are pumping them out so fast that they are over-saturating the market even more. If you have a MW game then there is no reason to buy a new one. That said, it doesn't lessen the quality of the game.

    To be fair, that's a separate point. It's a very important point but a separate point nonetheless.

    Actually diversified products is a big thing in marketing so that's not entirely true. The real question is sales, is the product significantly less marketable the way it is or should it be changed to be more like Skyrim? If it's changed to be more like TES, what effect will that have on TES sales?

    Handmade dungeons are half the battle, the other half is hand placed enemies. Level design is about more than the architecture, it's the whole package. In the case of dungeons I'd argue than predetermined (power-wise) loot (chests) is a big part too.

    Lock picking minigame. I give Fallout 3 some credit for the hacking minigame though, it's actually a new puzzle every time. I don't think it's a good minigame but it's a solid one.
     
  16. Token-not-found

    Token-not-found It Wandered In From the Wastes

    199
    Nov 11, 2011
    You summed up pretty nicely what i thought about beth's non-linear games for quite some time but couldn't express very well into words.
     
  17. Sub-Human

    Sub-Human -

    May 31, 2011
    I'm supposing it was a developer thing they forgot to remove from the final product.
     
  18. WorstUsernameEver

    WorstUsernameEver But best title ever!

    May 28, 2010
    But that's not what their target audience wants, and that target audience is fairly big. Not saying marketing has nothing to do with it, but Bethesda's growing sales are also because they tap into some needs in the gaming public that few, if any, other developers cater to.

    Btw, I think Skyrim is a huge improvement in handcrafted content compared to.. pretty much everything they've done so far, and an improvement in general (despite taking steps backwards here and there.

    I obviously don't want Fallout 4 to be Skyrim with guns and post-apocalyptic scenery though, because the two franchises strive to do different things and even Bethesda got it with Fallout 3, with all the things they did wrong, they clearly tried to do something different and more in line with the franchise's heritage with the way they structured quests and handled the character development. Sure, they failed miserably at some thing and had lukewarm results overall, but that's another matter entirely.
     
  19. Dragula

    Dragula Stormtrooper oTO Orderite

    Nov 6, 2008
    I'm all for gaining by using the skills. Makes more sense.
     
  20. Sub-Human

    Sub-Human -

    May 31, 2011
    It might make more sense and be more 'realistic', but I think it unbalances the game. Besides, it takes away from certain aspects of a skill-based RPG (rather than class-based), i.e. the freedom to shape your character the way you want, not the way your class is supposed to be shaped.