Gun Control

Hassknecht said:
Guys. Please. I'm getting a tinnitus from the collective REEEing.
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I've always found it funny how these topics go so smoothly and respectfully until a Liberal is told "No" or "Not good enough".

The Liberal is arguing for the forced disarmament of either every non-police and non-military human in his country of choice, or every human like that on the planet. It's extreme, insane, radical, and inherently unreasonable. It violates the human rights of others. It's a violation of the NAP, a violation of private property rights, and a violation of your ability to defend yourself and others with the efficiency and safety of guns.

Yet if you question their religious devotion to their anti-gun rights crusade, they act like YOU'RE the bad guy in this scenario. They use their numbers advantage to present the illusion that people willing to stand up to them no matter what are a "craaaazy" minority. And they have that numbers advantage on sites like facebook on twitter because they decide who gets censored and who doesn't on those sites.

No matter how loudly Liberals slander and insult others, no matter how Liberals lower the level of debate, no matter how they conduct themselves and treat others, and no matter what Liberals gloat about wanting to do to you and your country, Liberals think they are owed respect and yet another yearly compromise with their unreasonable position.

Mention the fate of socialist tyrannies and suddenly, the socialist policies they advocate for "aren't real liberalism/socialism/marxism" because "real liberalism has never been tried". They refuse to look at any evidence that they are wrong and they refuse to admit that they want to do to others is wrong. Words won't convince them to stop aiding and abetting rapists, mass murderers, and marxist dictators. Yet they still feel entitled to have their sensitive leftist egos treated with kid gloves! Soviet Russia, Maoist China, National Socialist Germany, Democrat Chicago, gun bans haven't worked out well for these shitholes, if you'll pardon my language. The Liberal position on gun rights has not helped these countries, it has helped the authoritarians who want to rule them unopposed.

Treat a Liberal with a single speck of what it treats the world with, and it'll cry foul and beg for people with the power of censorship to save his fragile leftist ego.

Say what you will about the people who want unhealthy things legalized, like obviously and objectively harmful drugs. You can choose to not take legalized unhealthy drugs yourself in a country where they get their way and these bad things are legalized.

Say what you will about the people who want to legalize murdering their child at any age. You can still choose not to kill your child.

But the people who want to ban alcohol for everyone? If they have their way, everyone will be forced to get their alcohol from the black market. Anyone familiar with Prohibition knows how that went last time, but those who hate gun rights deny historical events like that. They believe what their politicians tell them, and their politicians say whatever it takes to make them think gun ownership is a problem that needs the Liberal solution of "More liberalism aka marxism".

You're not likely to get into a situation where you need to save someone's life with booze but you can't because it's been made illegal.

There are more valid arguments for banning booze than guns, but neither should be banned.

The people who want to ban guns for everyone want to force their will upon everyone, and they won't listen to reason. They won't listen to debate. They'd rather censor and slander their opponents because they know their beliefs don't hold up to scrutiny. They want to use force to get their way. Typical marxist tactics, typical marxist attitudes.

Not all ideas are created equal. Marxism is wrong and Cultural Marxism is wrong. The anti-gun rights position is anti-fact, anti-human rights, anti-freedom, anti-safety, and anti-reason. This irrational belief doesn't deserve respect, it deserves even more scorn and mockery than the Liberals give out to those who see through their BS.
 
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SilverStarApple/Epsilon7 said:
I've always found it funny how these topics go so smoothly and respectfully until a Liberal is told "No" or "Not good enough".

The Liberal is arguing for the forced disarmament of either every non-police and non-military human in his country of choice, or every human like that on the planet. It's extreme, insane, radical, and inherently unreasonable. It violates the human rights of others. It's a violation of the NAP, a violation of private property rights, and a violation of your ability to defend yourself and others with the efficiency and safety of guns.

Yet if you question their religious devotion to their anti-gun rights crusade, they act like YOU'RE the bad guy in this scenario. They use their numbers advantage to present the illusion that people willing to stand up to them no matter what are a "craaaazy" minority. And they have that numbers advantage on sites like facebook on twitter because they decide who gets censored and who doesn't on those sites.

No matter how loudly Liberals slander and insult others, no matter how Liberals lower the level of debate, no matter how they conduct themselves and treat others, and no matter what Liberals gloat about wanting to do to you and your country, Liberals think they are owed respect and yet another yearly compromise with their unreasonable position.

Mention the fate of socialist tyrannies and suddenly, the socialist policies they advocate for "aren't real liberalism/socialism/marxism" because "real liberalism has never been tried". They refuse to look at any evidence that they are wrong and they refuse to admit that they want to do to others is wrong. Words won't convince them to stop aiding and abetting rapists, mass murderers, and marxist dictators. Yet they still feel entitled to have their sensitive leftist egos treated with kid gloves! Soviet Russia, Maoist China, National Socialist Germany, Democrat Chicago, gun bans haven't worked out well for these shitholes, if you'll pardon my language. The Liberal position on gun rights has not helped these countries, it has helped the authoritarians who want to rule them unopposed.

Treat a Liberal with a single speck of what it treats the world with, and it'll cry foul and beg for people with the power of censorship to save his fragile leftist ego.

Say what you will about the people who want unhealthy things legalized, like obviously and objectively harmful drugs. You can choose to not take legalized unhealthy drugs yourself in a country where they get their way and these bad things are legalized.

Say what you will about the people who want to legalize murdering their child at any age. You can still choose not to kill your child.

But the people who want to ban alcohol for everyone? If they have their way, everyone will be forced to get their alcohol from the black market. Anyone familiar with Prohibition knows how that went last time, but those who hate gun rights deny historical events like that. They believe what their politicians tell them, and their politicians say whatever it takes to make them think gun ownership is a problem that needs the Liberal solution of "More liberalism aka marxism".

You're not likely to get into a situation where you need to save someone's life with booze but you can't because it's been made illegal.

There are more valid arguments for banning booze than guns, but neither should be banned.

The people who want to ban guns for everyone want to force their will upon everyone, and they won't listen to reason. They won't listen to debate. They'd rather censor and slander their opponents because they know their beliefs don't hold up to scrutiny. They want to use force to get their way. Typical marxist tactics, typical marxist attitudes.

Not all ideas are created equal. Marxism is wrong and Cultural Marxism is wrong. The anti-gun rights position is anti-fact, anti-human rights, anti-freedom, anti-safety, and anti-reason. This irrational belief doesn't deserve respect, it deserves even more scorn and mockery than the Liberals give out to those who see through their BS.
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I asked for people to stop spouting weapons-grade autism and you answer me with another page-long sermon about cultural Marxism or whatever that has nothing to do with anything. Now ask yourself the question, did I only mean the anti-gun boobs when I mentioned REEEing, or could I possibly have thought about another person as well?
And since it will inevitably come up in your next reply: I'm currently on a phone, so any outrageous mistakes and typos can be kept as finders-keepers.

Let me ask this question to everyone:
Is there a problem of excessive violence directly related to firearms in the USA, and if so, what do you think could be a solution?
Please answer this question only, and do so without delving into political tirades.
If there is a problem of excessive gun-related violence, what could be done about it?

I've said some ideas in an earlier post. The root cause for crime is poverty and ignorance. Issues that can be tackled with improved education first and foremost.
I've mentioned licenses and exams to teach safety and responsibility to reduce accidents. Any thoughts on that? What about a very basic militia training course as requirement for the license for a semi-auto rifle? Handguns and shotguns are simple licenses with an exam similar to a drivers license, rifles require a training course. Similar to how a license for a 50ccm scooter just requires a written exam here, while a license for a car requires training and more exams.


Furthermore, I ask EVERYONE to be civil and on topic. No more political manifestos, no more drive by shitposting, no more dancing on the graves of innocent people shot. You all know who you are, and repeated offenses will lead to thread bans from now on.
 
Hassknecht said:
Let me ask this question to everyone:
Is there a problem of excessive violence directly related to firearms in the USA,
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Yes. I think South and North America have much higher violent crime figures than Europe or even Asia or Africa, based on the statistics I've seen. Especially in South America and the Central American region violent crime is high. IMHO firearms are like a, if not a catalyst then at least a propellant of violence, bit like throwing gasoline into the fire. So it makes sense to talk about a "gun violence epidemic".

US is, when compared to other industrialised western nations, very high on the list when it comes to gun violence, if not no. 1. And US is supposed to be the wealthiest nation in the world, how much wealth do they need to deal with a very big problem in their society?

and if so, what do you think could be a solution?
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They've never really tried European-style legislation in all of or most of US. So that plus more regulations for the gun industry, and more money into basic education. If the basic education, elementary school etc., is failing in US, there will be more crimes and guns are going to be misused. Education is also a key in reducing other crimes that propel gun violence, like drug crime, etc.

And even basic stuff like UHC, if people are so lacking in basic security that they don't even have basic health care, then they will more easily commit crimes etc. And see guns as a tool for that, and also need guns for security because of crime etc. etc. It's a self perpetuating vicious circle.
 
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@SilverStarApple/Epsilon7 bro, like... chill. Calm yourself. You’re being a massive cunt, and instead of forming arguments you’re shitting all over yourself and going “HURRDURR SEE THE LIBS RUN”.

Just... I support gun ownership. I am on your side.

And I find you fucking insufferable.
 
Excessive Violence?

Yes. But it isn't JUST guns. Our mentality is different. As Crni has pointed out, what we consider left in the states is actually right in Europe. Everything is just 'MORE', here. We value our individuality and assholishness. We are not known for our conformity or homogeny. We love our cowboy like attitudes. Mix in a much bigger population and YES guns, then the result will obviously be much different.

When I envisage Europe, it is like one big fucking KUMBAYAH. Yea you have your crimes and assholes too, but it is all much LESS. Some of it is things like better mental health and drug treatment. A lot of it has to do with a significantly smaller population. I guess after instigating so many wars and murdering themselves for 1k plus years, you turned hippy, or something is in the water, I dunno.

How to fix?

More investment into mental health and drug treatment. More education, not just regular education but things like money management, personal responsibility, not having fucking kids when YOU are a kid, etc. Stop pushing ideas like crime is a result of poverty ONLY which is the most absolutely fucking asinine thing I have ever heard.
 
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Of course, poverty isn't the only cause, l just feel like it's one of the more fundamental and accessible causes.
The bulk of mass shootings seems to be related to gang violence. That's another issue that's hard to tackle, I think. One side says the root is systemic racism and can be fixed by affirmative action and reparations and so on, the other side says it's a cultural problem that the culture itself needs to fix. I think the truth is somewhere in between, a chick and egg problem. Both systemic racism and stupid culture are real issues to some degree, and feedback into each other, causing each other. There is no point in assigning blame just to one thing and getting angry about it, problems are not solved by rage and screaming.
 
DarkCorp said:
Excessive Violence?

Yes. But it isn't JUST guns. Our mentality is different. As Crni has pointed out, what we consider left in the states is actually right in Europe. Everything is just 'MORE', here. We value our individuality and assholishness. We are not known for our conformity or homogeny. We love our cowboy like attitudes. Mix in a much bigger population and YES guns, then the result will obviously be much different.

When I envisage Europe, it is like one big fucking KUMBAYAH. Yea you have your crimes and assholes too, but it is all much LESS. Some of it is things like better mental health and drug treatment. A lot of it has to do with a significantly smaller population. I guess after instigating so many wars and murdering themselves for 1k plus years, you turned hippy, or something is in the water, I dunno.

How to fix?

More investment into mental health and drug treatment. More education, not just regular education but things like money management, personal responsibility, not having fucking kids when YOU are a kid, etc. Stop pushing ideas like crime is a result of poverty ONLY which is the most absolutely fucking asinine thing I have ever heard.
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Mental health is the big pro-gun/NRA talking point, I don't think they are willing to invest in UHC or better health care systems. They are just trying to deflect any big changes into gun legislation.

And yes Hass, in US they also need more courses and licencing for gun buyers/gun owners. The "gun show loop hole" is a pretty huge issue when you think about it, it's so well known it has it's own Wiki-page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_show_loophole

But yea. One might think that as Europeans it's not our problem if US is flooded with gun violence. However, I don't think those things are ultimately contained in any one country and gun violence etc. has been spreading from US to Europe as well.
 
How would it spread to Europe though? I think that's a weak argument. I think the level of gun violence in Europe is currently on a reasonable level, although we had a surprising amount of mass shootings in Germany in recent times. One of them used homemade guns, so no amount of increased regulation could do anything there.
What spreads to Europe is the political radicalisation and division and general ideas.
 
Hassknecht said:
How would it spread to Europe though? I think that's a weak argument. I think the level of gun violence in Europe is currently on a reasonable level, although we had a surprising amount of mass shootings in Germany in recent times. One of them used homemade guns, so no amount of increased regulation could do anything there.
What spreads to Europe is the political radicalisation and division and general ideas.
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We had two big school shootings over here and in both cases the shooters idolised the US school shooters and had contacts to US individuals who encouraged them. It could easily be compared to terrorism. NRA has a 'branch office' in Finland, in Germany and other European/EU nations too. NRA and US gun corporations aren't just lobbying (very successfully) US law makers and politicians but also European law makers and politicians. How confident are you that they won't eventually change policies in Europe? And the looser gun laws go hand in hand with an overall 'libertarian'-style governance and society where corporations are free to do as they wish and don't have to care about public safety issues etc.
 
TheGM said:
Already have the license requirement to own a firearm in my state and if you want to carry it you need another license and have to go through training.
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Ah, ok. Does that seem like a reasonable thing to you? I know licenses can be a hassle, but does it maybe help with accidents and so on?
 
Hassknecht said:
I know licenses can be a hassle, but does it maybe help with accidents and so on?
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Well Like any tool if you forget to take what you are dealing with seriously somebody can get it hurt, but instead if lopping your fingers off with a power saw they blow their face off. Firearms training was once a big deal in decades past, high school programs and the such but those stopped being a thing forever ago and even suggesting making something like that available again can get you vilified pretty quick depending on where you live.
 
Yeah, firearm safety seems like a good thing to teach at school actually. Teach them to respect weapons because they are not toys whatsoever. Might help with accidents among kids that play with guns.
 
Everything has its advantages and disadvantages when we are talking about double-edged swords that are based around the concept "quality of life."
 
Double edged swords should be part of business casual dress code.

/edit: Before you ask: Katanas are overrated and thus discouraged.
 
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Hassknecht said:
Yeah, firearm safety seems like a good thing to teach at school actually. Teach them to respect weapons because they are not toys whatsoever. Might help with accidents among kids that play with guns.
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I’m all for that. My father taught me from a young age how firearms work, mainly because I grew up in an area where I’d theoretically be exposed to them; it was a prudence thing.

The problem (in America) is that you have 2 “sides” that won’t budge; we’re either all for guns and won’t move on the topic of changing how we treat them even a bit, or we’re completely against guns for whatever reason and won’t budge on leaving them.

I believe that reforming how we see weapons, as a culture, will go a long way in reducing gun violence.
 
Switzerland seems to have a healthy culture in that regard. Much less fetishization of guns and more viewing them as tools, necessary, but dangerous and demanding of respect and caution.
 
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