Honest Hearts Endings/Graham & Caesar *Spoilers*

Discussion in 'Fallout: New Vegas Discussion' started by willooi, May 20, 2011.

  1. willooi

    willooi It Wandered In From the Wastes

    128
    Aug 23, 2010
    Seeing as how Honest Hearts' endings consist of either helping the Sorrows to flee Zion or to hold their ground and stay, two variations of 'good' differing in interpretation according to Daniel/Joshua, I wonder whether there could have been a third, just plain 'bad' solution?

    For those on Legion playthroughs, surely wiping out the Sorrows on behalf of the White Legs would have been a fine way to gain some Legion fame? Kill Salt-Upon-Wounds yourself, and rally the White Legs to follow your brutal leadership? Command your own tribe! :twisted:

    Onto Graham. In one of my saves I hadn't yet met Caesar and so it was the perfect opportunity to complete HH and then pay him a visit. Upon doing so and getting him to open up after doing the first couple of quests...no new dialogue options on the Burned Man.

    So then I replayed that save the other way around, meeting Caesar first and then doing HH, and it was quite clever for the developers to account for that...

    You get a dialogue option to tell Graham that you've already met Caesar, and what would happen if you told him JG was still alive, to which he responds something along the lines of "That would put you, and Caesar, in a difficult position. Even if you did try to convince him, Caesar wouldn't publicly acknowledge it, for doing so would be admitting that he was wrong. That Caesar made a mistake".

    Makes sense, really.

    (Apart from the fact that in the previous variation I was wearing Graham's armour - that same armour he had worn at the first battle of Hoover Dam - and had his unique, signature Burned Man .45 with me at the Fort. With all that street cred, STILL no one seemed to bat an eyelid).

    So don't be disappointed if there aren't any additional dialogue options with Caesar, just think of it as your own special little secret with the Burned Man.
     
  2. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    you should have been able to walk with the burned man in the camp of Caesar and all would emidiately start to become hostile! :mrgreen:
     
  3. Courier

    Courier Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Orderite

    Apr 10, 2011
    I really wish Graham had been able to come back to the Mojave with you, at the price of making all Legionaries hostile.
     
  4. willooi

    willooi It Wandered In From the Wastes

    128
    Aug 23, 2010
    Maybe after Lonesome Road and meeting Ulysses, the game will bring up some more options?

    I really can't wait to find out what he's going to tell you.
     
  5. When I meet Ulysses, I'm honestly not sure wheter I'll shoot him in the face or connect with him. I'll just have to wait until july to figure it out.
     
  6. willooi

    willooi It Wandered In From the Wastes

    128
    Aug 23, 2010
    He must have some groundbreaking, earth-shattering news to tell you if they cut him from the vanilla release and saved him until the very end.

    With 'Ulysses' being the Latin equivalent of the Greek 'Odysseus', my guess is that there'll be a lot of 'The Odyssey' in there, with him travelling the wastes on this epic journey to find a nation he 'believes in' before planting his Old World flag down. Perhaps the Courier is to Ulysses what Penelope was to Odysseus?

    As in Penelope, while Odysseus was away, had a lot of suitors and the Courier has similarly been 'courted' if you will by House, NCR, and Legion. And just like Odysseus, Ulysses turns up later on to further stir the pot.

    Well whatever it turns out to be, Chris Avellone will make it awesome.
     
  7. Yamu

    Yamu Le Fromage Vieux oTO Moderator Orderite

    Jul 26, 2003
    I can't remember where I read it (someone help me out?), but I seem to recall someone pretty high up in the Dev chain of authority being quoted as saying that from a design perspective, they wanted to do more with Ulysses but it would've seemed like too much of an extraneous element to a lot of players, would've overloaded them and left too many people scratching their heads at the decision to implement the two storylines side-by-side in the same release. I was left with the impression that the Ulysses plot thread and the Battle for the Strip plot thread, though they may touch in places, aren't really part of the same braid.

    With that in mind, though, it's still got to be something big.
     
  8. Courier

    Courier Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Orderite

    Apr 10, 2011
    Ulysses was confirmed by Joshua to be an assassin for Caesar, but he doesn't seem like your average legionary. I've been thinking that maybe the Dog/God character from DM is parallels the Courier's relationship to Ulysses, especially in Dog/God's 'best' ending where it says something about "One consumed by hunger, the other consumed by the desire to control" And then goes on to talk about the Battle of the Divide.
     
  9. Quagmire69

    Quagmire69 Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    387
    Mar 17, 2011
    No especially given his pro american perspective. Wonder what his angle is.
     
  10. Courier

    Courier Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Orderite

    Apr 10, 2011
    No, Joshua Graham specifically says that another courier (Ulysses) was sent by Caesar to assassinate him.

    Edit: Have you even played HH? I thought you couldn't access your Steam account. :|
     
  11. Lexx

    Lexx Testament to the ghoul lifespan
    Moderator Modder

    Apr 24, 2005
    Yep, he says that the other courier is an agent of the legion. Now I am pretty tensed to see what they want to do with him in Lonesome Road.
     
  12. willooi

    willooi It Wandered In From the Wastes

    128
    Aug 23, 2010
    Interesting, thanks for that. I suppose in that regard leaving this second plot thread a mystery and building up its mystique in the way they've done through these little hints is quite clever. MCA expressed how he missed Ulysses in the game, and fashioning him into this big reveal at the end is excellent.

    Perhaps Ulysses' original companion quest would have progressed similarly to, say, Arcade's, with him withholding a secret until a twist at the end, and maybe this twist has now been turned into the Battle of the Divide.
     
  13. Hoxie

    Hoxie King Queer oTO Orderite

    May 19, 2008
    I was actually a bit surprised there wasn't that option. Since you can go for the Legion in the main game, I thought there would maybe be an option to assist the White-Legs and gain some more rep with Caesar, but turned out to be no dice.
     
  14. The Dutch Ghost

    The Dutch Ghost Grouchy old man of NMA Moderator

    Jan 11, 2004
    I also lament the fact that Graham/The Burned Man was such a temporary companion, and would not travel with you through the main FNV campaign.

    I would loved to have him play a greater role and of course the encounter with Caesar once you visit the fort.
    However do remember that your other companions would not enter Caesar's tent with you either, so that would have to be changed too.

    It would have been interesting if you could have further redeemed Graham or made push him deeper into his own darkness (with all consequences).
     
  15. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    Err, that's exactly what you can do.
     
  16. willooi

    willooi It Wandered In From the Wastes

    128
    Aug 23, 2010
    Clarify?
     
  17. The Dutch Ghost

    The Dutch Ghost Grouchy old man of NMA Moderator

    Jan 11, 2004
    Check my post again Mike :)

    'further' redeem, the change in Honest Hearts only being the start.
     
  18. Quagmire69

    Quagmire69 Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    387
    Mar 17, 2011
    Yes I got an error message a day later and a new password. I was talking about Ulysses, not Joshua.
     
  19. Quagmire69

    Quagmire69 Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    387
    Mar 17, 2011
    Yes I got an error message a day later and a new password. I was talking about Ulysses, not Joshua.
     
  20. Courier

    Courier Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Orderite

    Apr 10, 2011
    Yeah and Ulysses is a Legion assassin.