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Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by TheHouseAlwaysWins, May 13, 2020.
*Loads Grapeshot with patriotic intent*
Tally ho lads!
The obvious answer with regards to self‐defence would be looking at historic examples like the Paris Commune or Free Territory, or something more contemporary like Freetown Christiania or Cheran. You shouldn’t ask breast rippers anything about socialism, since oftentimes you can just predict the responses yourself.
Paris Commune and Catalonia got fucked
AnComs and AnCaps both live in complete fantasy worlds but you can at least give the AnComs credit for fantasizing about something that's actually humane and egalitarian as opposed to Anarcho-Capitalism which is basically "what if Disney Land had an army and owned slaves"
Well what if? It’d be interesting.
That they immediately shunt out the air lock the second they get a whiff of power and go mad from it. It is almost as if basing your ideology on two bad ones is going to give you a Reese's peanut butter cup of pure shit.
An-Caps. I don't know what their deal is. Some you can tell are taking the piss, but they you got those who actually believe in it. It is like the people who cried at the end of Infinity War or think Pro-Wrestling is an actual sport, it is still real to them dammit.
Would you be able to point out where this has actually happened? My understanding of the history of Libertarian-Socialism essentially says that most 'anarchist' societies collapse because of invasion by an outside force (often the USSR or a proxy) rather than turning into an authoritarian dictatorship.
What am I, fucking google? Why not go with histories most recent example in the CHAZ/CHOP/Razistan or whatever the hell they are calling it this week. When not even in a 24 hour period the 1st citizen was outed as some kind of sexual abuser and the self appointed local people's watch began beating people in the streets.
Inb4 that wasn't real anarcho-commienism or any other coping mechanism you employ.
I mean generally if you are going to make a claim it helps to back it up with evidence
And I would agree that the CHOP is kinda dumb (I'm not an Anarchist) but presenting some secondhand Twitter drama and a video of someone getting beat up doesn't really do anything to support your original point that attempts to implement a political ideology that is over 150 years old always end with them being ruled by authoritarians who are "mad with power"
But if that's all it takes to convince you of something I can understand how you've gotten so confused.
Some examples are:
The Paris Commune- Where the French Government completely slaughtered the Commune during bloody week with some casualties, but way more than on the Commune side. It only lasted 2 months.
Catalonia- They were destroyed by the fascist government of Fransico Franco after the defeat of the Republican Government at the Battle of Ebro, I don't have Catalonia's death toll, but the Republican Government that Catalonia was allied with is estimated to be 175,000 killed. Fun fact, many international volunteers (including the US's Lincoln Battalion, composed of American Socialists) Fought alongside the Republican Government against Fascism. It only lasted from 1936-1939
Makhnovia- Was completely obliterated by the Soviet Union and turned into a Soviet Satellite State. It only lasted from 1918-1921
Currently, the most successful communes still around are the Zapatistas, who maintain and live in the Chiapas state of Mexico in southern Mexico, bordering Guatemala. And Rojava is also a fairly successful commune, however it has relied on US military support due to the very volatile place they find themselves in, if they didn't have that alliance, it would likely be destroyed by Turkey.
There are a lot of super small communes, but those aren't really worth mentioning.
And yes I must agree with the sentimnet that out of all the ideological fantasy utopias, the Anarchists at least dream of one that is actually ethical and highly moral.
It was a LARP. It wasn't an insurrection. Those west-coasters are gentle people. They don't understand the rest of the world.
BOOM! Called it. MAXIMUM COPE DETECTED.
The 1st among equals. this is Anarchist Communism after all, which itself is a hypocritical and contradictory terminology.
IIRC Catalonia was controlled by Soviet-aligned militias by the time the Nationalists took it, COMINTERN and their Spanish satellites had basically staged an internal coup within the Republican side that violently seized the city from the Anarcho-syndicalists.
If you want to point out what the CHOP proves about Makhnovia, The Paris Commune, Chiapas or Catalonia feel free to elaborate but otherwise it just looks you are gleefully setting up a strawman so you can knock it down and feel good about yourself.
HA! Jokes on you I don't need that to feel good about myself. And Strawmen? No no no, I get to knock over your sandcastle and get to watch jamokes like yourself wriggle and seethe when they use GMoogle and cognitively disassociate the results when they don't like what they see.
Catalonia was a libertarian socialist autonomous zone, and it was collectivised and controlled by actual libertarian socialist organizations such as the Confederación Nacional del Trabajo (CNT, a confederation of anarcho-syndicalist labor unions) and the Federación Anarquista Ibérica (FAI, which was a collection of Spanish Militants.)
The CNT was largely responsible for the economic collectivization of Catalonia, and the FAI was largely responsible for maintaining anarchist "purity" (which usually meant putting non socialists/anarchists and/or other considered counter-revolutionary forces in labor camps lmao).
There were non-anarchist socialists that helped with creating Catalonia such as Unión General de Trabajadores (UGT) but were a lot less influential in creating the society compared to the anarchists.
The Soviet Support was largely military support in order to protect a friendly state from falling into the enemy hands. however I think the long term goal was spreading Soviet Influence to that region of the world and further make Spain a satellite state. However, at the time, the USSR was nowhere near strong enough to make that happen.
It's also weird too, because the USSR eventually started persecuting other Republican factions, most famously the Partido Obrero de Unificación Marxista (POUM), the smallish, Catalonia-based party.
This is major "pot calling the kettle black" energy considering it's coming from a guy whose handwaving away historical facts that contradict his argument and replying with no evidence of his own other than "Google it"
The POUM were Trotskyist I think, which explains Soviet hostility to them
Most of your fantasy governments tend to be either be taken over by strongmen internally as the original system was too weak to defend against it, or was attacked by outside forces sensing a weakness.
AnComs I do not get as the two ideas are mutually incompatible. Anarchy is more about personal freedom and communism is sacrificing personal freedom for the good of the whole.
The reason why most fail is because a lot of these hippy systems start off as some utopian dream until one of the stronger hippies claims leadership. The reasons could be that the commune is too weak and disorganised, and not efficient with collectivisation or they need a leader to rally people against foreign attackers.
Either way, power corrupts and human nature takes over. The dictator, who only was meant to hold power momentarily, will either retain power due to real or imagined emergencies, causing the dream to fail.
Are you talking to me? lol
I didn't handwave shit, I merely ignore whatever the hell you said and type in reply of what I think you will say by basing off the idea that I am responding to a moron.