I wish we could criticize Bethesda so future fall out games could be better

Discussion in 'Fallout 3 Gameplay & Tech' started by Fitch3k, Nov 9, 2015.

  1. Fitch3k

    Fitch3k First time out of the vault

    5
    Feb 14, 2012
    I love Fallout 3, have played multiple play throughs for hundred of hours, vanilla and mods, and always maintain it's a top 5 game for me. I have a huge criticism, that really disappoints me, but that doesn't make it a bad game. I don't think it's bad game, I think it's a wonderful, all time great game that could have been better still. And if we could criticize Bethesda's handling of it without everyone jumping to their defense, we could ensure better future installments.



    The karma system is insulting, and the morality of choices are so obvious that they are meaningless. This is immersion breaking when we are dealing with caricatures of evil like Tenpenny wanting to remove an eyesore, or just plain boring when the choices are obvious, hey kid want to blow up people for 500 caps (which is not a richly sum) or diffuse the bomb for a slightly smaller sum of caps.


    And let me stop all the retorts that I want to play an evil character without repercussion. I have an impetus to do good, but I don't want it to be so obvious, and without in game repercussions when you don't. The karma system giving you a different ending is not repercussions. Part of the game could be the challenge of figuring out whats good, what's true, who's using you. It could be more fun to not easily get the outcomes you want and not simply bc a Super Mutant is in your way, but because you face dilemma.


    We tend to think of being bad in games as release, lets just be bad and get some deviance out in a simulation, so games have started making being bad or good simple choices. You don't blow up megaton or enslave people for any reason other than you want to play as a bad character. There's nothing wrong with that, and you should be able to play that way if you want, but can we get a system in place for players that want a little more challenge in their morality? Being good should never be easy, it's very hard to be good, must people end up being bad by trying to be good.


    I'm not proposing the game get more complicated, so that players who loved fo3's karma system can't just jump in and play bad or good bc that's what they want. Myself and other critics are asking for a little more nuance so players who want to, can experience challenge in the story, not just the combat and get more out of the experience. If you love FO3 exactly as it is, you could still kill or save everyone you want, even if the quests weren't so on the nose.


    Here's how I roleplay blowing up Megaton:


    When I emerged from the vault I was traumatized. I saw the wasteland, crumbled infrastructure, blown apart homes, I walked over bones and skulls, I imagined the dust was ash remains. It was horrifying. I tried not breathe any of it in, then I couldn't breathe from panic attacks, and was forced to gasp and let the ash into my body. I put my back up against a wall in Springvale and didn't move for 2 days, I was starved, exhausted, and going mad. Then I heard president Eden from the eye bot, America was out there somewhere. Safety, culture, my culture I learned about it the vault, civility, exactly the place Dad would go to. I forced myself to move and came upon Megaton.


    Once inside the sheriff threatened me, Moira tried sending me into death traps, and Moriarty refused to tell me were Dad went. Everything was dirty, everyone was dirty, dressed in garb no decent person would wear, living in shacks no civilized men would live. There's drug addicts and a pedophile living openly among everyone else, accepted as one of the cult. Yes there was even a cult. The sheriff even appointed himself, these people believe might makes right. I couldn't believe they lived so close to home, and suddenly I was terrified for my childhood.


    Now imagine instead of, "hey kid, you want to blow some people up for caps so we clear up this eye sore", I see a civilized gentleman in a suit. The dress of an honorable man. He buys me food, warns me about Megaton, and tells me he was here with my dad, who was able to flee. He tells me he is trapped here, and they will only let me come and go if I make runs for Moira. He asks me to accept a run so he can sneak out when the door opens, tells me to meet him at Tenpenny tower. I accept and see the Tower for myself, nice and regal, protected, with actual soldiers in uniform, civilization, free thinking honest people, that must care about the general welfare. After courting me and making me feel safe, they present the bomb plot to me, who am I to think nuking people is wrong? I grew up in a world that uses nukes to solve problems and even after it's destruction is unapologetic about it. ( I'll return to this later about the karma system being too presumptuous).


    It's only later on after I learn about this world, interact with wastelanders, decompress my trauma that I realize I have been had, I was used to a very evil end and that's why I go on a crusade for good. Or maybe I reject I was used and see the whole world as mad and deserving of the same fate. To protect my ego I frame the world against myself and my allies.


    There's more complexity there for me to explore as a player. More outcomes. More of a challenge to do what you want. And more immersive as evil people never say, I'm evil, want to go be evil together? They are going to lie and manipulate outcomes. How is any of that bad for the game or player experience? Why can't we have npc and quest chains like that?


    Is it bc we have to have the karma system? How is that good for player experience to have bethesda tell others what they think right and wrong is? I for one am not interested in their morality, I'm interested in my characters. The world is home to different people, from different cultures, with different values. Who is bethesda to tell us what's right? Especially when they are imposing contemporary values on a post apocalypse world?



    Is it wrong to torture? How about when it saved lives and you weren't skilled to get that information any other way? is it right to let a criminal live bc they didn't really pose a threat to you? How about when they kill the next innocent sap they are a threat to. What's selfish? Is it keeping all of my food and not sharing with you? Or is it you wanting food from me that you did nothing for? I don't know, but I know I don't want bethesda making those decision. The best judge of morality is judging moral consistency; how alike your moral choices are.


    Wouldn't that be a deeper better experience for players? Where you do what's right by the people you care about so their loyalty towards you grows, but ostracizes you from others. Could you see where it would be a rewarding experience to get the atmosphere, exploration, and setting of FO3 with nuanced quests and challenging story arcs?
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 6
  2. Sn1p3r187

    Sn1p3r187 Carolinian Shaolin Monk

    Apr 7, 2014
    I like your idea there on Megaton. Now if Interplay did Fallout 3's story it'd play a little something like that or close to it.
     
  3. zegh8578

    zegh8578 Keeper of the trout Orderite

    Mar 11, 2012
    I loved the torture scene in GTA, simply because I kept feeling sympathy for this poor bastard.
    I did not want to torture him, but the game required me to.
    This is a good example of really daring, reaching out to the player, and manipulating his/her emotions, beyond Beth's "FEEL SOMETHING NOW! FEEL IT! FEEEEL!"

    I felt plenty, and wasn't even told to, with that GTA mission, shit I even felt genuinely sorry for him when driving him to the airport - and that is when Trevor casually tries to help the guy start a new life. Rockstar anticipated that by now, the player will feel a lot of sympathy, and Trevor reflects this FOR you, in a subtle and credible way.

    Good job, Rockstar!
    Bethesda - learn from this. No, no, don't steal and rip off, I said LEARN from it!

    I actually did feel half an emotion when
    having to execute Paladin Danse, especially when he was so forthcoming about it. You almost had it, there Bethesda, you aaalmost had it!!!
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  4. Buxbaum666

    Buxbaum666 Heterostructured Nanorod oTO Orderite

    Dec 5, 2003
    I wish message boards wouldn't give people the ability to change fonts so future posts could be more readable for everyone.
     
  5. ZigzagPX4

    ZigzagPX4 The Swiftness of the Ranger

    Nov 22, 2015
    Ironically, serif fonts are supposed to be easier to read, but I'm guessing that normal rules don't apply to you.

    On second thought, I think that's actually a myth, so nevermind what I said.

    But honestly, you could simply just copy and paste it into the reply box and change the font and read it without posting it.

    It's a hassle, but that's better than not being able to read!

    (Unless of course, you are on mobile
    :wink:)
     
  6. Nazeem

    Nazeem Sans

    20
    Jan 1, 2016
    1. OK Bethesda, the only places I found funny in Fallout 3 is Dave's Republic. Everything else is just one the same model, different textures.
    2. Why do I need to gather a fucking amount of money or go on a fucking quest to find out where the hell is my father that I didn't develop any emotional bond with, when I can simply look in a stupid wardrobe, find a stupid password, and look in a stupid computer, (all in the same room), where that fucking Moriarty wrote 3 paragraphs about me and my father(Why make Moriarty a stupid bar patron when you could really make that guy a writer or history recorder, rather than putting that crazy woman sent me in every part of the Wasteland and putting me to drink from their bomb water?!) !?
    3. Slavering doesn't work on everyone and you can't buy every slave or really be their master! Really, who wouldn't enjoy having Tenpeny as his loyal slave, wearing pre-war dresses and caring a mini-gun?
    4. You should make posible wearing clothes that aren't for your gender without adjusting them!
    5. Black Widow perk: I played 2 fucking days running around from place to place and talking to all legitimate, then average and then drunk people, only finding one single person who I could use that perk on and I never saw that guy again! Really this perk was supposed to be for the bad girl who can wait to get to "it"!
    6. By all names, you called that dog Dogmeat?! "meat" is a term used in Fallout for person and slave(weird if you ask me) (also never used for actual food)!
    7.Butch: My mom is trapped in there with the roaches!
    You: Where?
    Butch: No, first you save her, then I'll tell you!
    WTF?!
    9.Talked to a girl in Metaton using the child talking perk. She told me about a safe in the floor and the combination, too. Spent 2 hour tearing their home apart without finding anything!:shock:

    Enough for now but expect more from me Bethesda!:twisted:
     
  7. zegh8578

    zegh8578 Keeper of the trout Orderite

    Mar 11, 2012
    Spoiler: the safe has absolutely nothing special. That's another little gripe I have with Beth's games, they shower you with so many guns, right from the start, that nothing feels like a reward anymore. All you have left to look forward to are "unique" (re-named... ) guns, of which you have allready found countless normal versions of.

    Basically, it's a waste of perk and effort, you spend a point on that perk, you get what
    1. Useless content of that safe (which is on the floor, next to a shelf), I think all the content is worth like 50 caps or something, you can pretty much shit more money.
    2. You can use it to enter the Little Lamplight caves directly, without having to do a required quest - in other words, you just lost 300 XP (unless you insist on doing that quest anyway, but that's basically what the perk is for: to avoid XP... )
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  8. Izak

    Izak I Shot The ALBATROSS

    Jan 29, 2016
    The same thing happened to me, I found it pretty funny that I had to use a wiki to find a safe when I had been given explicit instructions on how to reach it.
    They should have left child killing in and made child at heart give a combat bonus, that way I wouldn't have to talk to the annoying kiddies whenever I got to little Lamplight. What a waste of a perk.:shrug:
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2016
  9. FreedomStalker

    FreedomStalker Still Mildly Glowing

    247
    Apr 22, 2016
    I love Fallout 3 too. But I find it inferior in every way compared to Fallout and Fallout 2.

    Yeah and all the guns they shower you with in Fallout 3, suck hairy baboon balls(even when fully repaired). So it's like you are surrounded by an ocean of trash. So then when you find another gun, it's like, "GREAT, another weapon that requires me to unload an entire clip or two to kill someone!" The unique weapons in Fallout 3 kind of suck too and are way too rare. In Fallout and Fallout 2, the guns towards the end of these games, were so powerful, you really felt like they were treasures to love and cherish for all time. In Fallout and Fallout 2, you start out with shitty weapons but then, the weapons just keep getting better and better. And finding them always brings me so much happiness and joy.

    One thing that really bothers me about Fallout 3 though is not being able to have Amata as a follower.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2016
    • [Like] [Like] x 1