Is smoking tobacco a human right, or should it be banned?

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by BigBawss, Sep 18, 2015.

  1. AskWazzup

    AskWazzup Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2008
    Few? Even tobacco has withdrawals.
     
  2. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Yeah, but those are really not the main problem when dealing with smoking tobacco, as far as I know. The physical effect will wear down very quickly. It has a lot to do with habits. Heroin though will also have a very serious effect on your body most of the time after its first use. Doesn't mean beeing addicted to tobacco is a nice or easy thing to deal with. However when talking about the potential, Heroin has a much higher risk of getting you addicted. Not to mention that you can probably die easier on an overdoze of heroin compared to tobacco.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2015
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  3. Ascension

    Ascension First time out of the vault

    6
    Sep 25, 2015
    I won't agree with that "very quickly", from my own experience, but you are generally right. Every drug has withdrawals, some only mental, some both mental and physical. Pot for instance, has no confirmed physical withdrawals and is mildly mentally addictive (closer to not really). Heroin on the other hand, has massive effects on your body as well as mind. Along with all opioids.

    I am very liberal, so I personally think, that everyone has the right to do whatever they desire with their own bodies/health/life. As long as it does not influence anybody else. I'm for legalisation of every psychoactive substance, if every person will take responsibility for their own actions. No rehabs for junkies from the budget. They'll have to pay for it themselves.

    That's not the government task to ban anything. You have your own intelligence and can figure out things for yourself. Authorities are treating us like babies, and telling us what is good and what is not (legal/not legal). So I tell them to fuck off.
     
  4. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    Not quite... Addiction is defined by BEING a physical condition, not a mental one. You can develop a habit of taking a non-addictive drug, and you can suffer so-called "mental withdrawal", but that doesn't make it addictive, or make those ACTUAL withdrawals. FOOD is more addictive than certain drugs, because our body chemistry (metabolism) develops a dependency on a certain caloric intake if we keep it consistent enough, so any efforts on our parts to try and lower our caloric intake (dieting) will result in our brains convincing us to eat more to compensate, thus the "rubber banding" effect that most dieters experience. But we don't label FOOD as "addictive", even though our brains are wired to depend on it. Then again, we DO label capsaicin addictive...

    By contrast, marijuana produces many desirable effects, and those cause its users to want to keep taking it. Recreational users wanna keep getting high. Medical users wanna keep being able to eat food after chemo or stave the nausea off or relieve unbearable pain, etc. This is habituation, because you develop a habit. But your brain doesn't tell you "I need more of this stuff" if you stop taking it, unlike tobacco, nor do you experience SEVERE pain if you go "cold turkey", unlike heroin. Some addictive substances are SO mild in their addicting properties (alcohol for instance) that kicking the habit is mostly just that: dealing with a habit. Some heavy drinkers will go through withdrawal, but the vast majority of drinkers just need to make an effort to change up their habits.
     
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  5. BigBawss

    BigBawss Wizard of the Hood

    110
    Aug 22, 2015
    Exactly. You hit the nail on the head every time.

    A tobacco "addiction" is not a real fucking addiction. An opiate or alcohol addiction however, is.
     
  6. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    You guys mean nicotin and habits are not real?

    Are you serious? Really you should eventually think again about it. Just saying.
     
  7. Moosick

    Moosick cats

    458
    Jul 8, 2015
    There is a VAST chasm between a habit and a psychological dependency.

    Looking at various (admittedly online) dictionaries, websites dedicated to drug treatment, etc, the word addiction appears to be quite nebulous in detail. Some exclude activity and mental problems, some differentiate between simple physical dependency and the word itself.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2015
  8. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    No, the habits are real, their (or at least BigBoss') point is that it's not actually a physical addiction that gives you physical withdrawal symptoms.
    Which I'd disagree with, nicotine addiction is definitely a "real" addiction.
     
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  9. BigBawss

    BigBawss Wizard of the Hood

    110
    Aug 22, 2015
    No it doesn't. I'm a so-called "chainsmoker" of Newports (two packs a day). All of the withdrawals regarding tobacco are ALL mental. Anyone who tells you otherwise is most likely over exaggerating, or not a smoker. The so-called withdrawal effects are mental only. I've heard some people get the shakes, but that might be a rumor because even I don't get those and I smoke two packs a day. But that's the worst case scenario, and it's most likely a rumor. When you don't have cigarettes, it's a lot like people who are addicted to coffee. They get ancy and turn into a bit of a dick (or cunt for the female version).

    There ARE withdrawals, don't let anyone say otherwise. But they are all mental. Tobacco has no withdrawal side-effects that effect your physical body whatsoever.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2015
  10. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Just because you didn't feel physical symptoms doesn't mean nobody feels them. That's just anecdotal. And it's especially true for neurological issues like addiction, and neurotoxins like nicotine.
     
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  11. BigBawss

    BigBawss Wizard of the Hood

    110
    Aug 22, 2015
    Yeah, but I go through all the commonly noted ones. Just because a minority control population get physical withdrawal symptoms from tobacco/nicotine doesn't mean the majority will.

    The same analogy can be applied to medications. For example, say you have a medication noted to help combat pancreatic cancer in it's beginning stages. But you have one or two people that it didn't work on. Just because that medication failed to work on that small population percentage, doesn't mean it didn't or won't work on the majority.

    Or here's another analogy: just because tobacco smoke can cause lung cancer, doesn't mean everyone will get it. There's been people who've smoked nearly their entire life, and died relatively healthy due to issues not related to smoking. Like my great-grandmother for example. She smoked since she was 12 (smoking was common among even kids, back in the early 1900's), and when she died her autopsy on her birth certificate attributed it to old age and natural causes. Her lungs and otherwise body entirely was relatively healthy for a life-long smoker. She died at 88 years of age on 2010.

    According to the online research I've done, I get all the same withdrawal symptoms as most everyone else trying to quit cigarettes. Only I get them with I don't have them, not because I'm trying to quit. I really have no intention of quitting. Not anytime soon, anyways.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2015
  12. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Depends I would say. I think a vast majority of smokers actually ARE addicted to cigarettes. Just usually not to the extreme, like heroin. But considering the countless of products with the intention to quit smoking, most with rather questionable sucess though, shows that there definitely seems to be a very large group of people which seem to be addicted to tobacco.

    No shit sherlock. When I am sated I am not feeling the effect of beeing hungry either.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2015
  13. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Gender Fluid Skeleton Man Staff Member Moderator

    Apr 1, 2005
    :roll:

    Just no.
     
  14. BigBawss

    BigBawss Wizard of the Hood

    110
    Aug 22, 2015
    "No" what?

    Would you rather I hypocritically criticize smokers? Maybe I should write up a post about how terrible smoking is, as I smoke a cig?

    You obviously didn't get the point of that. There are different effects when undergoing a long term hiatus from tobacco (or anything addictive), such as when you are trying to quit, rather than the more immediate short-term effects when you simply don't have them.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2015
  15. LordAshur

    LordAshur Banned

    293
    Jul 18, 2015
    The chemical addiction isn't nearly as powerful as the habit. It's the small situations. Waiting for a bus and smoking a cigarette and just waiting for a bus is a pretty big difference. Or going for a cup of coffee or coffee and a cigarette. But physical addiction? Hell no. Just heroin, morphine, alcohol and some prescription drugs can cause that. I think that even cocaine isn't in that category.

    From my perspective, it's not nearly as serious as people make it out to be. Maybe it's just a trick by tobacco companies to make people believe it's more addictive than it really is, making a sort of placebo addiction. It might have decreased the number of people who buy their product, but it made those who do all the more loyal.
     
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  16. BigBawss

    BigBawss Wizard of the Hood

    110
    Aug 22, 2015
    Nope, cocaine isn't classified in that category. The Addictions and Substance Abuse Program here in Albuquerque turns coke/crack addicts away and instead re-directs them toward counseling treatment, where you only receive therapy but don't get any kind of medication for it. Alcohol addicts are given anabuse, and Heroin/Painkiller addicts (as I was after I got hit by a truck and the docs had me on oxycodone for the longest time, and then yanked me off out of nowhere) get methadone and/or suboxone. If you're not addicted to any of those things though, the ASAP clinic (addictions and substance abuse) will turn you away and instead redirect to you drug therapy, which is just that - therapy. It's not inpatient treatment nor do they give you any kind of medication (maybe a anxiety relaxer, but I doubt they'd even give them that since those are still federally watched prescription drugs). The clinic was made solely for addictions whose withdrawal symptoms can actually be dangerous (those who withdrawal from any kind of opiate or alcohol can have seizures).

    Benzodiazapines also cause physical withdrawals, and they have a medication for recovering benzo addicts, although I'm not sure what it's called.
     
  17. valcik

    valcik So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Dec 20, 2008
    That's not true. Nicotine molecules attached to receptors in your brain are altering the way your neuron synapsies are transmitting informations, it's very physical thing.
    https://sites.oxy.edu/clint/physio/article/CellularandSynapticMechanismsofNicotineAddiction.pdf
    edit: Also, there's genetically affected tolerance mentioned in this article, which means nicotine is racist as feck! One person suffers with serious withdrawal symptoms while the other might be completely immune.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2015
  18. LordAshur

    LordAshur Banned

    293
    Jul 18, 2015
    So I'm a member of the nicotine-withdrawal-immune master race! Fuck yeah!

    But what caused my ancestors to adapt to it?
     
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  19. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    Sorry that I wasn't more clear in my last post. Tobacco is ALSO one of the chemicals which is considered "addictive", BUT like alcohol, its addictive properties are very mild. You won't go through an agonizing withdrawal like you would with kicking a heroin addiction, but you won't simply be trying to get over losing enjoyable benefits of your chosen drug as would be the case with the active chemicals found within marijuana. Tobacco consumption causes a secretion of chemicals that you brain naturally does on its own, and as a result (much like my above mentioned "rubber banding" weight gain following an attempt at dieting) your brain will compensate for the change in your body chemistry by secreting less of these psychoactive chemicals on its own. When you try to stop, your brain has been telling your body to NOT produce these chemicals and it continues to do so, so at first you will encounter a withdrawal symptoms from stopping your nicotine intake. That's a physical symptom, making it a physical addiction. But it's relatively easy to get over. Most who complain about not being able to quit smoking simply lack the fortitude to see their decision through.

    To use a more extreme example, gaming is often referred to as an "addiction", but is it? We experience states of high from our enjoyment of the activity, so that's chemical, right? Well, it's still just a habit. Like masturbation, a habit can CREATE a chemical secretion to relieve pain, cause bliss, drown out noise, all sorts of various effects, but we're not being physically reliant on it. That's the distinguishing factor. We CHOOSE to conduct our personal habits, and if we CHOOSE to stop, then whatever reasons led us to want to do it in the first place will now become reinforcing causes to want to resume the habit again. But these aren't "withdrawal", these are simply reinforce habits. You had fun pwning those n00bs in CODBLOPSII, you have fond memories of passing the time on that game, so all that positive reinforcement is telling you to pick the habit back up and you'll have more of that same fun.

    Drugs like heroin ALSO has a similar positive reinforcement habit feedback relationship. When you take it for the first time, the high is exhilarating and unmatched, so you want to take it again and feel that wondrous splendor. But your body slowly develops an acclimation to the drug, so you don't get the same impact from subsequent doses, even at higher concentrations. (This is also why it's so easy for heroin addicts to OD, because they're trying to achieve that earlier high, so they take more heroin. This is also called "chasing the dragon".) But upon taking the drug and experiencing that great high, and taking it repeatedly afterward and experiencing similar (if less effective) highs, you grow accustomed to it, and you expect to continue that same level of enjoyment. Even as the habit starts ravaging your body, the positive reinforcement keeps you telling yourself that it'll all be alright, just as long as you get your next fix. But UNLIKE the above explained gaming habit, kicking your heroin "habit" WILL lead to physical withdrawal symptoms. These aren't just you being used to it and suddenly haven't to go without it. These are your brain and your bodily functions DEPENDING on a regular intake of the drug to continue to function, because it's grown dependent on it. While stopping your n00b pwnage means you don't get those same endorphin rushes, it doesn't lead you to spiral into a clinical depression because of any kind of chemical dependency. The same is not the case with a physical addiction. You WILL spiral into withdrawal symptoms, because addiction is physical. It's not "all in your head". It's very real.

    But again, while it is addictive, tobacco is NOT some kind of dangerous narcotic to be scared of as the end of your life. Its and alcohol's addictive qualities are just not potent enough to be worth comparing to much "harder" drugs like heroin or meth.
     
  20. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Maybe I am missunderstanding you, but if you have no intention to stop smoking and you STILL do it, how can you know that you have any effects? Or no clue ... maybe my Brain is just slow right now.

    Hmhmmm. I don't think anyone here seriously suggested that it is. We are just saying mental and physical withdrawl effects exist. And at least with Tobacco the mental ones might be stronger - depending on the person and their habbits of course.

    Also, doesn't alcohol have very similar effects to your brain chemistry like heroin? I am not sure though, just what I remember. Could be wrong.

    Well it is a well known fact that habits can become addictions. Like gambling and yeah gaming as well, which falls most of the time under internet/PC addiction. Masturbation and Sex can become addictions as well. There are many well recorded cases. What is important most of the time are two things.

    1. Does it effect heavily your everyday life? Like do you have the feeling that you can not even perform the most menial tasks without it?

    2. Do you perceive the action as burden and/or something negative?

    I know those are extremly generic points, but in general it is very helpfull to determine if something could be seen as addiction or not. There really is probably not a "clear" way to do it. But I would really be the last one to tell someone, no you're not addicted despite the fact that you feel that way. There are many cases where people addicted to masturbation, gaming or gambling for example see it more as a burden and stress and where they have the feeling that they can't stop with doing it. And those people eventually need help. What ever the reasons for said actions are, is of course a whole different question. And I won't even get in to that.

    However it seems that the general concensus is that habbits can indeed become addictions - see gambling.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2015