Kotaku articles on Fallout 1 and 3

Discussion in 'NMA News and Information' started by WorstUsernameEver, Nov 11, 2014.

  1. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    You can be a king or a knight or a nobleman or some other person of interest (or person of no interest) and have black skin. We have plenty of examples (as collected by the blog I now linked twice) of black people in lots of different roles. Hence, video games could easily include black people in whatever role they want and still be historically accurate (even though they could also choose to ignore historical accuracy). And that means that the choice not to do so is a choice to exclude black people. Which is a problem if it happens constantly. And it does.
     
  2. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    So, then choosing a black protagonist would be a choice to exclude non black people?

    Man there aren't any black haired chubby Colombian protagonists in videogames at all, that's so problematic, why don't they just cram us on everything? I demand that the character be bespectacled too. And if he has a deep sexy voice much better. Wait wait, no, I don't give a shit.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2014
  3. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    It would be if there were almost no white protagonists or even white characters in video games. We don't live in that world, though.
     
  4. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    There are no Colombian protagonists, I demand that representation over other races, if we lived in a world with no black nor white protagonists that wouldn't be a problem. But we don't, were is the Colombian immigrant they can cram into the Wild West story, or the French revolution? I am entitled to them changing their game towards my whims, I am not caucasian.
     
  5. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    Given that AAA videogames, like AAA Hollywood films, are aimed at worldwide audiences, international diversification is also a bit of an issue, sure. We'd be well-served by more diversification in video games, and stronger local video game markets (though perhaps the Colombian market is pretty strong, I don't know that).

    That's not quite the same thing as societies making video games in which they consistently erase already-oppressed sub-groups in their own societies, though.
     
  6. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Hey, you are not answering my question. Why have black and white heroes when you don't have any Colombian immigrants? Why can't they cram out group into every piece of fiction? with enough rewriting you can make it work. I am offended you are saying black people have priority on the representation over colombian immigrants. No Colombiaxploitation? why can't the new Farcry game have a Colombian protagonist in Asia? are they implying Colombian people can't travel to Asia? I demand an Assassins Creed game that takes place in the era of the Bogotazo.
     
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  7. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    These things don't have to be exclusive, and I'm not sure why you're treating them as such. Yes, a game with a Colombian-American perspective would be good. Why shouldn't we have that? And yes, there's also an issue of under-representation and stereotying of Latino characters, though I would argue it's less common than the erasure of black perspectives and characters in a society that already erases black perspectives from much of its culture. Basically, yay more diversity.

    Also, no one's asking for all of these things to be present in every game. Just for more perspectives to be represented across video games as a whole.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  8. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Because my point is that we shouldn't force people to bend their product to our whims. Actually a game made by europeans about a point in Colombia's history would be complete shit, why? because they are trying to write around something they probably don't understand and have no real understanding of it's actual effects. If they want to do it go ahead, if the yare not up to the task and have no interest in doing so, why the hell would I want to force them to do it? Would you like to see a game about a black man during the french revolution made by a bunch of white dudes in Praggah that "some of their best friends are black"? What if they are not interested i nthat kind of story? should they be forced to change their product just so they are inclusive? Should they just add a token character to satisfy the "inclussion quota"? Isn't that worse? they are reducing people of other ethnic backgrounds into tokens towards the "not racist I swear!" goal, thus dehumanizing characters just so they look more liberal.
    The solution is not forcing people to be "inclusive" is to actively working towards having more diverse characters in your personal work, but doing it in a sincere way. No forced rewrites of other people stuff. Most writers write who and what they know, female writers tend to gravitate towards writing women and so do male writers, same happens with race, numerous writers break off of it, but the only good results are when they do it out of their own will, not to ask the masses to stop calling him secretly racist/sexist.
     
  9. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    Cool. No one's forcing anyone to do anything. I'm just saying that the limited number of perspectives in video games and the consistent erasure of a part of history is a bad thing.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  10. Gnarles Bronson

    Gnarles Bronson regular mutant

    373
    Oct 30, 2011
    Because capitalism. Video game makers want to appeal to the largest market possible, and in the United States that's white men.

    Is there a market for minority-centric videogames? Probably, but the solution is a FUBU one, not trying to force white video game developers to try and create world perspective which they are not familiar with. That's virtual cultural appropriation.

    As for kings... Lanette was a black woman...

    A) Cool, I'll agree limited perspectives are a bad thing. What's the solution? B) "The consisten erasure of a part of history" is something we'll have to agree to disagree about. It seems like your main evidence for this is two period games which "barely" mention it, meaning it does get mentioned, just not enough for you. If it exists, they're videogames man, they follow rule #1 which is it must be above all fun. I'm not convinced that's something that is actually happening though.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2014
  11. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Yeah, sorry, I know better than to complain that there's not enough video games featuring white, hetero, cis men, even though none of them come from german suburbia and are thus not part of my specific experience.
    But in general, yeah, it's also frowned upon if I or people like me complain about anything. A priviledge resulting from my numerous other priviledges.
    Whatever. I'm all for more diverse video games. It's just that there instances when cramming another explicit reference to american slavery or whatever will sound out of place. I think Fallout is one of those instances.
    Fuck, Fallout 3 literally has an Underground Railroad freeing slaves! How much more explicit do you need it in a setting where historical knowledge is limited by which books are not burned?
    /edit:
    Mind you that I agree on for example Dishonored or Bioshock: Infinite. Especially the latter didn't do good in how it handled racism. Started promising, but lackluster execution. Dishonored, I don't know. It's a fantasy setting, who knows if there even are black people? But it would be weird if there weren't any, unless their world is flat with no axial tilt or equator. Considering the general shittyness of the world and its people it would make sense if they were so uberracist that they actually did eradicate all black people.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2014
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  12. Gsonderling

    Gsonderling First time out of the vault

    16
    Nov 13, 2014
    I would also like to know how much more references to racism can you cram into Bioshock:Infinite a game where you stop stoning of mixed race couple and fight super powered KKK.
     
  13. Gnarles Bronson

    Gnarles Bronson regular mutant

    373
    Oct 30, 2011
    Why do I not remember this... Just the beginning outside the vault? Shoot, is it time for another F1 playthrough?
     
  14. Gnarles Bronson

    Gnarles Bronson regular mutant

    373
    Oct 30, 2011
    Am I racist or are there fewer black nerds in general? I've known one, which is a huge percentage of all black friends I've had, but...
     
  15. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    The answer to that is always yes, trivially so.
     
  16. Akratus

    Akratus Bleep bloop.

    May 14, 2011
    I hear there's a certain amount of african-americans who are fans of anime and fighting games.


    STEP UP SENPAI
     
  17. Gsonderling

    Gsonderling First time out of the vault

    16
    Nov 13, 2014
    Wow. Talk about breaking stereotypes.
     
  18. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    That's an answer to "why don't we have that?". It's not an answer to "why shouldn't we have that?" There are plenty of profit-based (or profit-rationalized) reasons for why video games are the way they are.

    More diversity among writers/designers. White writers/designers willing to do the research and push themselves to write about things they don't know (or think they don't know) -- there are tons of resources about Writing The Other. Publishers willing to push more diverse video games/take a risk.

    My evidence is all video games I've ever played, basically. I only named two examples, but it's present (or rather absent) in nearly every video game. There's a reason for that -- the same reason that many Westerns took up the "Former confederate soldier who totally didn't support slavery but gets attacked by evil union soldiers" trope. For many white people it's uncomfortable to talk about race, to insert that history into your cultural narrative. So they kind of write around it -- it's not in their worldview, so it gets ignored. That's how you get Colonization with no slavery, a faux-19th c. London with no black people (Dishonored), an exploration game set during the American Revolution taking you all over the east coast, but with almost no slaves (Assassin's Creed 3), a post-apocalyptic setting with slavery and exploitation and oppression where every single character seems to have completely forgotten about centuries of race-based slavery and discrimination (Fallout games), a Western set in late 19th century Texas with no racist forced labor or segregation (Red Dead Redemption). It's why even when a game does include racial discrimination, it does so through the lens of white people (Bioshock: Infinite), but as flawed as that entire story was, at least they tried.

    Yes, Fallout 3 had all of these things they took from the history of slavery -- but the game never connected those things to the actual history, nor to the racial backgound. "Yeah well the history books got burned" is a rationalization of the situation, not a reason to design it that way. It would have been perfectly plausible to have that slave leader talk about being inspired by his ancestors (hi oral history) instead of being inspired by a mangled version of Abraham Lincoln which conveniently forgot about the centuries-long oppression of black people.
     
  19. Gsonderling

    Gsonderling First time out of the vault

    16
    Nov 13, 2014
    Again and I hope for the last time. DISHONORED was set in FANTASY universe there quite possibly were no black people and certainly the society evolved in different ways. That is unless you have whale oil powered lights in you home.
    There was no reason to have black, asia or white people on the streets it was just an artistic choice.
     
  20. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    Yes, it was a choice. They chose to exclude black people from their universe. That you can rationalize that choice in-universe (which the game doesn't, by the way) does not change that that's exactly what they did.