Fallout 2 mod Metzger and guard rebalance mod

Discussion in 'Fallout General Modding' started by laclongquan, Jul 4, 2020.

  1. laclongquan

    laclongquan Boned Hunter of Sister

    561
    Jan 11, 2008
    Suggestion:
    +++raise their level/HP/AP and skill level to middle game stage. NOT their equipment or it would be holes for metagamer to exploit.
    +++Put a .44 revolver, a SMG or a (burst-able) shotgun in the hand of Metzger

    Reason: Their levels and equipments are suitable for early game stage, but NOT for their role in overall storymap.

    Think: They serve as a middling man, selling slaves to VC for raw chemicals, and selling both chems and slaves to New Reno for... what? maybe Jet. They have unknown tie with Enclave.
    ++ A roundabout way to suspect their importance is BOS presence here (the other places merit such attention is NCR and SF). The Den seem to have hidden importance that's unexploited in game storyline. And the only thing of note in this town is Metzger Slaver Guild and his VC/NR/and possible Enclave connections.

    Combined this and we can suspect they are a branch of Salvatore but not Mordino (since the amount of Jet in The Den is too low and Mordino doesnt seem to know about Enclave)... BTW, I suspect Rebeca Dyer is possibly a Wright daughter married into Dyers, and this is their effort to expand outside.

    Also, killing them and the NCR Ranger know, meaning they are quite famous in certain circles.

    Currently, Metzger and his guards are suitable for early level stage. A party of Sulik, Vic, and PC, armed with 4 dynamites, can cut them down with shotgun, .44 revolvers etc...

    Detail:
    Change their level to 16 to compensate for their 10mm pistols. That way their HP will raise so much you would need 10+ dynamites to do the job, which mean middle stage. Or at least shopping a lot in VC/Gecko (and/or NR/BH)
    Change their SMG skill to 120 I think. Because otherwise their AP ammo cant do the job.
    Keep their equipment as it is or metagamers would think of assasination one of them for easy highlevel loot.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2020
  2. Lexx

    Lexx Testament to the ghoul lifespan
    Moderator Modder

    Apr 24, 2005
    Eh, doesn't sound like a good idea. They exist so early-level players can fuck up some shit and if you upp their hitpoints, that won't happen anymore. They can be quite tough already right now.
     
  3. laclongquan

    laclongquan Boned Hunter of Sister

    561
    Jan 11, 2008
    MMmm~

    Problem one: with Sulik and Vic, a trio wont be taking on the 13 of them. Too outnumbered, too under-armor, and under-arm. If you have 4 dynamites, then yeah, they can.

    Problem two: If we return from VC/Gecko, it's most likely we have another 2: Cassidy, and Miria (as a distraction). With party of 5, plus the numerous weapons and metal armors we got from Modoc, VC, and Gecko, we are much more powerful than the 13 slavers armed with 10mm pistols.

    So we have a situation that only metagamer (go to Modoc or Redding then return to The Den right away) can properly fight the gang as intended. Anything else would be either too easy or too hard.
    ++Theoretically you can lock the doors in the guild house so we can fight in 3 waves. Problem is: end the fight after killing ones we can reach is not easy due to windows allow they can see each other. Thus it's very rare for gamers to do that, unless they are VERY patient.

    Thus I suggest a rebalance where we push Metzger gang into mid stage boss fight. Easy midstage boss fight because they only has 10mm pistols. If you want to impress the NCR Ranger all you have to do is to take a Den detour. And while the 13 slavers will hit hard (ap ammo) there is a Mom diner where we can heal by eating.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2020
  4. laclongquan

    laclongquan Boned Hunter of Sister

    561
    Jan 11, 2008
    Basic mod: modify Metzger alone. Thus we have a very tough Metzger, worthy of a boss, the other guards can be normal. This way even if you concentrate dynamite on him alone it's not easy to kill him.
    ++As a 100HP Metzger, you are going to need 3 dynamites on him alone to kill or seriously injured him. Or serious firepower to start fighting from outside in. That kind of resource mean you are going to delay this fight until after VC or NR.

    Advance mod: modify the Metzger guards and Slaver Camp guards. Problem is: they are generic, so mess with them will lead to messing with random encounter. I will table this for now.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
  5. Oracle

    Oracle Vault Senior Citizen

    May 19, 2003
    uh you making these mods?
    Or like ya brainstorm only with the hope somebody with the skills picks it up?
     
  6. laclongquan

    laclongquan Boned Hunter of Sister

    561
    Jan 11, 2008
    Both.

    1. I am doing this. However, as a noob of noobs modder, it's slow work. I learn as I do.

    2. I am also enticing other modders paying attention to this (or that) aspect of the game that they (will) feel interesting. So either they will do it in their own time, or incorporate my (or others') work into theirs.

    Please note that there's five different works on ammo modification, two (I think) on sfall, etc... There's no monopoly on idea for mods, and no consensus either.
     
  7. Vali

    Vali Redeemer

    216
    Apr 29, 2020
    Stupid Idea...

    Metzger is strong enough also his guards or all other Slavers. The only thing that make sense, to change the weapons of his guards so some with knifes or spear and not all with 10 mm pistols. And give Metzgers shotgun to his hands, so the player dont have the chance to steal it from him.


    They are only Slavers not Rangers or the Enclave.
     
  8. laclongquan

    laclongquan Boned Hunter of Sister

    561
    Jan 11, 2008
    >_> You have overestimated Metzger too far. Not surprising because every post so far show you are not a very good tactical player.

    Current version Metzger and his guard is enough for a pre-VC or pre-NR party.

    Get to Modoc or Redding. Collect or buy 2-3 dynamites.

    Do what quest you can in Redding (few, but with extra weapons collected) or Modoc (all).

    Return to The Den. You now have a better armed party (Redding) or higher level party (Modoc).

    Drop three live dynamites on the Metzger room. This initiate combat.

    Run to outer room. Fight until they explode and kill most of inside party (4-5). this even the odds.

    Metzger and his guards need 100+ Hp to fight against this tactic.

    THAT HP level is late game.

    100+HP doesnt negate this tactic. It just provide a buffer for that, and possible RNG will make sure maybe they wont get killed by the tnts.

    ----

    Why only 3 TNT? Because early levels can only collect that much. And it's acceptable cost to kill Metzger. If you invest for 5 TNT (after NR and VC) it's a losing business decision: you pay too much to loot so little.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2020
  9. Vali

    Vali Redeemer

    216
    Apr 29, 2020
    What have this with tactics when you buy tnt and take Metzger out this is bugusing or cheating.

    When you skill your character by right way, and solve the quests in arroyo and Klamath (there can you buy a leather armor), then you dont have a problem to take out Metzgers whole Mens.

    When you like to cheat only buy jet and psycho from tubby, so you have + 4 ap points with two jets and 50 damage resistance from psycho, so you can take out easy the whole Den.
     
  10. .Pixote.

    .Pixote. Carbon Dated and Proud
    Modder

    Sep 14, 2009
    Killing Metzger at level 1 or 2 - (solo) is possible with a little trickery and kiting...you don't even need to lock them in their rooms. Steal all the ammo off Metzger and his guards (grab the psycho, you'll need it), target one of his henchmen from outside and shoot at him and then make a run for the church. Now stand behind Tyler and allow Metzger's men to shoot at you, heal up if you get hit, and just wait for a stray bullet to hit Tyler.

    When Tyler is struck make a run for it and allow his gang to kill Metzger's men. This will cancel Lara's quest - Help Lara attack Tyler's gang...but if you complete all of Lara's quests before you only miss out on one quest. Don't bring NPC's into the battle, they'll just run forward and get killed. It feels good to watch the two gang fight it out. If you're wanting to be more helpful place an extra stimpak and ammo on Tyler to assist him...

     
  11. laclongquan

    laclongquan Boned Hunter of Sister

    561
    Jan 11, 2008
    THAT abuse two feature of the game: savescumming to steal items from Metzger gang. In that case, I dont consider it a tactic. A viable way of playing yeah, but not a tactic.

    The Tyler gang is not a bad tactic, but a pricey one. You are going to have to give up on doing Lara's Night Assault. You have to stick your companions in a room and lock it, or they would run around getting hit and killed. Good for a solo character, yeah.

    The give up on a quest thing is no good though. ESPECIALLY intentionally giving up.

    ====

    And Vali, overstatement like "just getting leather armors would be enough to take on Metzger gang" say it all about the easy level of the game you play~ Also it illustrate nicely about the need to rebalance the whole Metzger gang.

    And please consider the topic of this thread: Metzger gang rebalance.

    The basis of that rebalance is they are too bloody weak for their level of importance in story.

    Your argument of they being too weak just illustrate the need to rebalance them.
     
  12. Vali

    Vali Redeemer

    216
    Apr 29, 2020
    Can you read?? You have begin with tactics that is only bugusin.

    Leather Armor yeah what you want power armor.

    You skill your character not good or are only a bad player maybe played to many times fallout 3...

    And we have speak topic is still a stupid idea why should they have more ap ac and hp they are early game npcs.

    You should learning what rebalancing means.
     
  13. laclongquan

    laclongquan Boned Hunter of Sister

    561
    Jan 11, 2008
    Like. I. Said. You are not a good tactical player~ Thank god Fallout 2 is not a very tactical game or you wouldnt be able to leave Temple of Trial.
     
  14. Vali

    Vali Redeemer

    216
    Apr 29, 2020
    Yes take the mapper and gives you power armor and Pulse Rifle in the beginning then you can beat the game.

    I play fallout with modded files in my mod you will not survive even 5 minutes.

    Youre on of this kiddis, the only reason why companys like Bethesda exist,and can make bad games.

    Topic... The problem not are the critters, only the items..most items must be remove in early game like dynamit, jet, psycho.or only make them weaker.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2020
  15. Lexx

    Lexx Testament to the ghoul lifespan
    Moderator Modder

    Apr 24, 2005
    Ok, as something of a moderator on this board I will have to step in now .... Jesus, just chill, tone down the insults and weird assumptions. This is not productive and just a waste of everyone's time.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  16. Hubal

    Hubal Still Mildly Glowing

    204
    Sep 11, 2014
    Don't bother. Ecco mod already did this.
     
  17. Vali

    Vali Redeemer

    216
    Apr 29, 2020
    Lexx youre right

    I have tell him which things will work, and no make the game unbalanced with makes critters in early game harder.

    But i will ignore him like before is better it is waste of time to talk with guys like him.
     
  18. Lexx

    Lexx Testament to the ghoul lifespan
    Moderator Modder

    Apr 24, 2005
    The problem in this case is you, because you behave like it is not allowed to exist while nobody is forcing you to ever play a mod like that.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  19. 5545Trey

    5545Trey Underground Deviant

    633
    Jun 25, 2014
    Hostilities aside...
    That's very commendable. It's good to see the Fallout community still active after all these years. I hope it all works out for you.
     
  20. Vali

    Vali Redeemer

    216
    Apr 29, 2020
    I know lexx but i say is stupid idea and why and this guy
    This guy reminds me that guy mr wolna from fallout now 100 threads and nothing. But for this Reason is the ignore button and will be better