Politotime!

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by 4too, Dec 17, 2008.

  1. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    No. Plain and simple. No. Or do you want to call Hitler and his scouts "liberals" ?
     
  2. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    Shocktroops trained to kill, kill and kill will enjoy any occassion to do so.
     
  3. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    You ever seen the HBO series Generation Kill ?
    .[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS9_wtekt8c[/youtube]

    Generation Kill - Letters from home

    Well this is really meant without any offense. But you should not be surprised then about the attitude many in europe and elsewhere show toward the "US".

    This is again the kind of attitude many disslike about the situation and american politics. I think Clarence Smoyer (Pershing vs Panther Cologne 1945) had the best words describing it after defeating a enemy tank. "I didnt go back to look for them (...) afterward cause I knew some of them died in there (..) I wondered a long time if any of them survived, you know. It still hurts you know even know they were the enemy I survived you know they're still humans"

    The Iraq just as Afganistan are situations with issues for itself. I was surprised tough when I heard from quite a few military experts here in Germany in some broadcast that the US and its colation forces made quite a few same mistakes like the Soviet troops back in the 80s when they had their war in Afganistan. Frankly it can not be compared of course. Not with the political motives. But still its quite schockingly how from the military size it is comparable.

    In both situations expersts projected that the infrastructure (or the lack thereof) will be a serious issue, the many ethnic groups inside Afganistan and the size of the military forces to control the region. There are only a fractional amout of troops you would need to have full control over the nation deployed in Afganistan.

    And the situation with Iraq is quite similar around ethnic groups. With the end of the actual "war" (within 70 hours more then 2000 tanks/armored vehicles were destroyed by the army!) they steped right inside a religious war between the Sunnis and Shiites, and you have as well the kurdish minorty inside the Iraq soil that were oprressed for quite a few decades. About both experts for the region warned the US leadership that they would be steping inside a extrem complicated political situation. But most ignored them. There was not even a long term plan for the Iraq after the defeat. No kind of riot control or even any attempt to restore order, and make sure the infrastcuture for water and suppliese "work", people started to demolish offices, museums and schools since any regular force was disbanded. No one even tried to stop them. And now everyone has to see how to rebuild that.

    Already back in the 80s after the soviets retreat it was considered to eventualy support the infrastructure of Afganistan. US autorities of that time supportet them with weapons, informations, military training of all kind against the Soviets. But from the 200 000 Million dollar (or even more) used for it it was not even considered to use anything of it for eventualy supporting schools or the infrastructure in that area after the war and no one had any special imagiation for the future and thus leaving the door completly open to the fundamentalists we face now. Still today it is that 90% of the nation are illiterate.


    Many of the issues we face today are children born from the cold war and now have grown up. It are backfires from both political and military decisions by the Soviets and US during the 70s, 80s and 90s people back then warned that those are not long term solutions for the case the political balance is not in order anymore but fear of the class enemy makes everything possible. Situations like the Iran-Contra affair during the 80s by the Reaggen administration and the Soviet support of Agypt against Isreal, delivery of nuclear technology to many states in the midle east even the Iraq. This are only a few examples. One could spend his whole life just investigating all the heavy political errors by any of them. And is even still without europe ...

    And now. Still a lot of people today think its "not their" buisness. This is not just about the US. From where did Sadam got his combat helicopters? France. Tanks? Russia. Training? by US military experts. The technology for the Saringas production? Sold and instaled by German companies camouflaged as pesticides. Has anyone ever asked him self were nations like India or Pakistan got their know-how for the nuclear technology and the nuclear bomb as result? Their ingenieurs got all their accounts in western universities, and the technology either from former warsaw states or europe (mostly france).

    We are so easily inclined in runing inside everywhere today to solve everything. But when it comes about to really think about the root of the problem you never ever see anything happen cause its just not our buisness. Well when it was possible to make money with it or either beat the class enemy. Then it was "our" buisness. Now when it comes to the clean up efforts "its their buisness". I love it how quite some europeans complain about the african issues and pauperism when infact is to a big part a fault of European colonialism of the last century. How can we even think that its not "our" buisness when something is wrong in the world today if infact we have contributed our part to it? Only cause its maybe 20, 50 or 80 years in the past? If we dont try to work together today solving this things it will not get any better and it will only lead to the kind of hate this nations have toward either Russia, Europe or the US and I can not even blame them for it cause basicaly when they say that we as well partially caused the issues. Europe was really much cashed in on the african nations in the last 150 years. And now when its about to share some of the economic wealth it becomes impossible.

    Before my parents moved from Serbia to Germany and I had a chance to get education here I could have seen with my own eyes what "western" support means. So I have my own experience with it. I am not that disenchanted from it to "hate" the western world or anything, infact if it would have been the other way around I am sure any other part of the world would have (and has eevn) done the same. But that doesnt mean we have not to be responsible for our actions one day
     
  4. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    You...you seriously think fascists are 'liberals'? How did you even come to that conclusion? It's so far removed from the truth it's hilarious.

    Hell, you think you can actually fit any political group into the ill-defined term 'liberalism' and then judge that entire group with one broad sweep?

    Moreover, how do you come off trying to oppose capitalism and liberalism? The two systems aren't even in the same spectrum (one being primarily an economic system, the other a political ideology), and liberalism as it's known (being primarily supporting individual rights and freedoms) strongly supports capitalism.
     
  5. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    I think he was probably talkling about the liberal forces in charge before the fascists took over the power in Germany before the events of 1933, as the so called "Machtuebernahme". The democratic instituation from the 20s and mid 30s in Germany was known as the Weimar Republic which was lead in its form by the SPD [Social Democratic Party of Germany] ... Although technically the 1919 Weimar constitution was not invalidated until after World War II, the legal measures taken by the Nazi government in February and March 1933, commonly known as Gleichschaltung, ...[ur=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Republicl](ref)[/url] it was the incompetence of many of those "liberals" that allowed the chaos which was still in its root caused by the WW1 and the Treaty of Versailles which helped the nazi-party to get their fame and popularity from (alot of their propaganda was directly against the Versailles trity and the people who ratified it)

    But to say that it are those liberals which have caused the WW2 is incorrect and totally past over the historical facts.
     
  6. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    The Weimar Republic has absolutely nothing to do with what ceacar99 was discussing.
    The SPD wasn't a party people suddenly flocked to, they didn't start the second World War, they didn't destroy those not like them

    Also, I'd argue that blaming the incompetence of Weimar-republic leaders for Nazi-Germany is ridiculous. You could blame them, perhaps, for being shitty leaders; although that, too, is debatable as it's hard to do well in a country in the state of interbellum Germany, the Nazis only exceeded throuh a mix of ignoring debts, international decrees, forced labor and heavy government interference.
    You could even blame the Weimar Republic for creating a situation where the Nazis rose to power.
    But it was still the German people that elected and supported the Nazis, and it was still the Nazis (and the German people) that performed every atrocity throughout its regime.

    Also, the Weimar Republic wasn't exactly led by the SPD, as it was a parliamentary democracy. The SPD was the biggest party, but was constantly in a coalition and never actually attained a full majority.
    Wait, so you're equating 'best' with 'most competitive'?
    Treating the entire world as a market is a ridiculous oversimplification.
     
  7. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    To say that. Just to not missunderstand each other. I think you cant really "blame" no one in particular.

    I think even that the second war at least in europe was not more then the continuation of the first one. Many evolutions since the 1900 have lead to all the events that made it possible. It was not Hitler who caused antisemitism. He was shaped by it already during the 1900s in his earlier life he spend in Vienna as very poor men. The frustration not only he, but many others feelt in the war when it was loost which lead to the Stab-in-the-back-legend that not the German soldier loost the war, but the politicans who signed the Treaty of Versailles. Lidle have people known that the military leadership in the field were responsible for it as well. But it was easier to blame the politicans which agreed to the treaty. All this events have more or less lead to the situation that made a next World War possible. Situations like the Treaty of Versailles, or the Novemember Revolution in 1918/19 in Germany were exploited heavily by the Nazi-propaganda. Hitler and many took the revolution of the German navy in 1918 that did not wanted to fight a "last battle" against the Briths navy which would have mean the sure death. Many people, particularly the leftists took that as reason to run against anything, particularly old systems and structures. Hitler wanted to prevent this at all costs, and he did. Never before he died occured a situation like the Novemember in 1918 and his soldiers keept fighting till the end.

    Some allied powers (like the US and even more so the soviets) wanted to prevent such a happening after the war, which lead to the war. The soviets had the idea to completely destroy Germany and thus preventing it from every geting any kind of power again. THe US even had the such similar ideas ...The Morgenthau Plan was a plan for the occupation of Germany after World War II that advocated measures intended to remove Germany's ability to wage war. The Britsh though which have knew about Versailles and the danger that can happen from such things also seen a new threat in the Soviets. Churchill at least. And they did not supported that much the idea of it.

    The cold war soon gave room for different approaches and the idea to never ever give Germany the same kind of "political" fire similar to Versailles and what came after it. They really tried a political education, which the Germans though did not accepted it, but later came up with a more own democratic system which fitts more the Germans.
     
  8. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    Yes, and I'm getting the book ASAP.

    And if anyone enjoys being deployed to Iraq it's shocktroops trained to kill. It's a gross oversimplification and a generalizing sweep, as there are good people in the army, but I was referring to caecar's "friends", not the US military as a whole.
     
  9. Bal-Sagoth

    Bal-Sagoth Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    996
    Nov 1, 2008
    Yeah you should go ahead and throw almost the entire Marine Corps in that "shocktroop trained to kill" list.

    "Every Marine is a rifleman", it is not just a motto.

    I do not really see it as a bad thing to be honest. I would rather have an 0311 who enjoyed killing instead of one who deplored violence or hated it.

    Nothing wrong with taking pleasure in your work.
     
  10. Patton89

    Patton89 Vault Dweller

    727
    Nov 21, 2008
    Well, if one takes PLEASURE from KILLING other humans, there has to something deeply "wrong" with the persons psyche, or way of thinking. Killing other humans lacks even the most basic logic. Enjoying it is borderline insane. Most serial killers enjoy killing and do it for pleasure.

    And isnt such a person who likes killing, a risk factor in a unit ? What would stop them from taking too much pleasure, and starting to kill innocents and prisoners as well. Or their own comrades ?
     
  11. Bal-Sagoth

    Bal-Sagoth Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    996
    Nov 1, 2008
    You would hate to carry on a convo with many of our Marines and Soldiers if that is how you feel.

    "The only thing I feel when I shoot an Iraqi is recoil". You will hear a lot of comments like that I promise. :wink:


    If this was the case a very large % of our military fighting force is in trouble. Demonizing and enjoying killing the "enemy" is very different than taking pleasure in killing civilians or god forbid your fellow Marines/Soldiers.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjoyn5wwBU

    No need to sugarcoat it.


    edit: Also before we get into it over that video let it be known we are not positive its a civilian. There are legions of goons on youtube who love to take war vids out of context and slap "Marines slaughtering civilians!!111!" on it.

    For all we know that guy could have been trying to set off an IED or was returning fire before they dropped him.
     
  12. Critter

    Critter It Wandered In From the Wastes

    100
    Nov 24, 2008
    All talk.

    Every single person I have ever been in contact with that has come back from anything Iraq and combat related hasn't been right. I've watched close friends relationships and even a marriage crumble from the results of it.

    Again, all talk. Good friend of mine is damn good with a gun and was aiming to go special forces and be a sniper. He passed every test and requirement with flying colors, but when he gave that answer right there, that exact.same.phrase... they failed him. That's not the kind of person the US military puts behind a weapon and lets loose.

    Even so, it doesn't matter. I have several friends and family that are military. Another good friend of mine got in serious, serious shit over potential civilian casualites after kicking a door in and throwing in a grenade before being 110% sure that the only people in that room were their targets.

    Military takes this shit seriously. A couple random fuckups doesn't go to prove our military is a bad, evil thing.
     
  13. Bal-Sagoth

    Bal-Sagoth Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    996
    Nov 1, 2008
    And I could counter with something along the lines of "every single person I have talked to...blah blah blah"

    We are not going to get anywhere with this but if you do not think there are people in the Army/Marines who do not take pleasure in killing I do not know what to tell you.

    The video I posted pretty much sums it up.

    "Hell yea that was awesome, lets do it again".

    Maybe he should not have told them that? Kinda a stupid move if you ask me. If we are going into personal friends I have a friend who got to shoot at and kill Iraqis from a Cobra helicopter.

    He was thrilled and called me asap to tell me about it.

    It should be noted my friend does not hold a combat MOS. He actually works on Prowlers. He just had the chance to go up and mess around gunning in the Cobra. Instead of just getting to shoot at cars however they got lucky and they found some Iraqis trying to steal the car parts. :lol:


    I was never trying to say our military is a bad evil thing. The military comes down hard on people who purposely kill civilians.

    If they are caught in the crossfire or what not it does not bother me but I do not condone random civilian executions.

    Everyone handles the situation differently honestly. To say "everyone enjoys the killing" and "nobody enjoys the killing" are both equally stupid.

    Regardless a Marine who has been trained properly should have no issues with killing. If said Marine "enjoys" or takes pleasure in who he is killing that is a different matter entirely.

    I do not see it to be an issue at a certain extent. Obviously if said Marine wants to kill civilians and cut off ears as trophies there are issues.

    However a desire to kill terrorist,insurgents,rebels,freedom fighters,etc who are trying to kill you is healthy in my mind.
     
  14. Critter

    Critter It Wandered In From the Wastes

    100
    Nov 24, 2008
    I could care less about about the rest of your argument, in all honesty, because yeah, we could go back and forth for days but basing an argument and having "proof" of some idiot on a youtube video is seriously weak.
     
  15. Bal-Sagoth

    Bal-Sagoth Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    996
    Nov 1, 2008
    You said it is just all talk. That video proves that for some it is not "all talk".

    Or would you care to base your argument on something else other than "people you know" or "people you have talked to".

    It is the same thing. As I said before different people, different opinions. You cannot possibly tell me there are not those in the armed forces who enjoy the killing.

    That was my point.
     
  16. Critter

    Critter It Wandered In From the Wastes

    100
    Nov 24, 2008
    Wow, I can thank Youtube for crowning the king achievement for pioneering scientific research. :D

    Yeah, ok, sure, some people get a kick out of it, fine, I admit that. Whoo...

    Nothing to base a large scale opinion off of. Some accountants are into to BDSM, shall we make a case and lump in all accountants of account of a Youtube video of an accountant participating in a BDSM activity?
     
  17. Bal-Sagoth

    Bal-Sagoth Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    996
    Nov 1, 2008
    You are putting far to much weight into the youtube video. I simply used it to prove that not everyone is "all talk".

    All I wanted was for you to admit there are some who do enjoy it.

    And you did, so thank you. :)
     
  18. Critter

    Critter It Wandered In From the Wastes

    100
    Nov 24, 2008
    So everyone that works at a chocolate factory is liable to be someone who's a homosexual that eats people?

    Again, one isolated example of someone who's very well a general fuck up, doesn't prove much.

    Now, had you posted a video going of some raw data applying to what it is you were saying, then I might not be playing a devils advocate here and might be willing to actually consider this a valid debate.
     
  19. Bal-Sagoth

    Bal-Sagoth Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    996
    Nov 1, 2008
    And you are going with your idea on the fact of "Every single person I have ever been in contact with..."

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2001984566_combat21.html

    "I enjoy killing Iraqis," says Staff Sgt. William Deaton, 30, who had killed a hostile fighter the night before. Deaton has lost a good friend in Iraq. "I just feel rage, hate when I'm out there. I feel like I carry it all the time. We talk about it. We all feel the same way."


    Why does it bother you so much that there are those who enjoy what they are doing?

    Honestly I am just pulling up random things via google and youtube. If we are going into friends/acquaintances I have talked to many Marines/Soldiers who express just as much desire to get over there and kick some ass.

    Where is ceacar99 when you need him!:P He has more experience with Marines enjoying the job they do than I.
     
  20. Critter

    Critter It Wandered In From the Wastes

    100
    Nov 24, 2008
    It doesn't bother me in the slightest. I just hate to make any base assumptions off of limited data.

    Is every soldier a die hard killing machine? No.
    Is every soldier that sees combat fucked in the head thereafter? No.

    Does a Youtube video prove anything either way? No.