RPGs can become much more “radical” but hardcore players are “resistant to change”, says Obsidian

Discussion in 'General Gaming and Hardware Forum' started by Black Angel, Apr 23, 2018.

  1. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    You shouldn't have replied to him, there is no sense in talking to confused individuals like him. You will always come out frustrated.
  2. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    Yeah, I should have known better since, iirc, he's the guy who stated that PS:T isn't a 'good RPG' or something along those lines, and even got into a pretty intense debate about what's RPGs are with Risewild (and Gizmojunk iirc). Shouldn't be surprised he started his participation in this thread with claiming that Fallout 2 is flawed because of stat points-allocations.
  3. woo1108

    woo1108 Vault Senior Citizen

    Sep 27, 2012
    Nope, in skyrim, upgrading skill determines too many things.
    for example, if you upgrade magic rather than other skill, then you are fxxxed.
    TES have good potential but also have a huge problem and the potential is totally destroyed due to quest marker. that means, there is no actual game play rather than drumming shield.

    And What I'm saying is, SPECIAL is failed system and character making of Fallout is actually flawed.
    Arcanum has a better chance to upgrade both stats and skills and it is a good thing.
    sadly, there aren't much chances to use skills except for combats in Arcanum though.

    RP in Fallout series have very huge limits and to change this limit, you have to start from character making.
    In fact, the low intelligence play was meant to fix the unbalanced SPECIAL system because with low intelligence, there aren't many things to do. and even without SPECIAL or RP, Fallout 1 and 2 are still great games.
    I enjoyed both, but I'm tired of making enough stat to enjoy whole contents. it isn't necessary to SPECIAL to limit the game play and there should be more chances to upgrade SPECIAL.

    and for name of RPG...
    How about an adventure or action?
    does the name of genre, explains the game's character properly?
    no. CRPG has been named, just because they used some systems from PnP RPGs.
    actually, CRPGs were considered as a part of the adventure.
    even the ancestor of adventure, Zork used table talk of PnP RPG.
    both are coming from PnP RPG, but their goal is differ from PnP.

    PnP RPGs are really about RP. each person have their characters and roles.
    but in CRPGs and adventures, while they used some systems from PnP, they are not about being a single character. they are about achieving given goals with given tools.
    you don't have to be a single character. you can be a party (?) or system (?) that uses characters to solving the whole puzzle.

    In short, in PnP, you have to be the character you made.
    but in CRPG, you are yourself. you don't have to be other people.

    Fallout failed to achieving this goal because first stat determines too much things
    and skyrim is failed because there is no goal or I can even say there is no game play as a CRPG.
    it's just poor FPS.

    In addition, the genre name of RPG isn't that old.
    RPG was called role-play adventure. and the difference between RP AD and AD is about character development.
  4. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    Yeah, not gonna reply any further to a 'What's an RPG?' discussion, but
    This is where you are wrong. It doesn't matter what skills you chose to increase, because their whole system in place is flawed; not because it determines too many things, but, again, it doesn't matter. No matter what set of skills you chose to master, you can always get back and activate the other corresponding stone (going from your example, even if you chose to upgrade magic by activating Mage Stone, you can always go back and activate Warrior or Thief Stone instead, thus you can 'fix' the problems, without having to make an entirely new character), and because of that it doesn't matter because you're not restricted by your builds and decision. This leads to a situation where no matter what kind of character you had in mind upon character creation, it will inevitably ends up as just about any other type of characters: a character that's a master at every (!) skills. This is also a problem that's become much worse in Fallout 4.

    There's nothing wrong with RPGs where character creation and development 'determines too many things'; in fact, I'm now questioning what were you actually defined with 'determines too many things'. Is it that your build determines your options like, for example, a character with low Perception can't notice things that can only be noticed by characters with high Perception? Or a character with low Speech can't pass a Speech check meant for characters that are build around utilizing Speech skill? Because if it is, then maybe just about any proper RPGs in general aren't for you and, again, what you're really looking for is games like Skyrim?
    • [Like] [Like] x 3
  5. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    I will never understand why people think that it is either role playing or even a 'choice' just because a game now gives you the option to chose either between a fire ball or some axe to kill something.

    I guess Doom is an RPG too, a pretty good even, because you get literaly as many choices to kill something as you have weapons available. Hell, if you want you might go trough the whole game only using meele attacks.

    All those choices make my head spin ...
  6. Kohno

    Kohno Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    Jul 30, 2009
    It's the mistaken general notion that choice and stat improvement alone make an RPG. That's the problem with moder RPG's. Getting to do more damage with your shooting or having the teasiest bit of choice in something narrative related is considered an RPG, when it's really much more complex than that and needs a much heavier explanation. That's why Stalker and Bioshock are also considered RPG's by a lot of people... and apparently why Sawyer wants to mitigate the meaning of stats "evolve" RPG's into CYOA games.

    There's a lot more interplay between gameplay, narrative and stat improvement that could be done, but it's almost universally neglected in mainstream games. And a likely reason is because it would be hard to explain to the average consumer.
    • [Like] [Like] x 8
  7. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Nov 26, 2007
    RPGs cannot be done without skills and stats. Skills and stats define the character to the game engine. The game engine must be able to evaluate when to enforce a failure, and when to withhold content. This is the basis of knowing what the PC is capable of achieving... and of what they are totally incapable. Absent skills & stats is absent a character's limitations, and the avatar becomes just a digital form of cosplay.

    RPGs can be done without displaying skill and stat check rolls... But it's not efficient, and becomes a borderline simulation. An RPG can be made to determine a result via skill roll, and then depict the result in animation. The PC can swing the sword and very obviously miss, or the enemy can deliberately noticeably move out of the way. The PC may drop, or damage an item or interactive object, like a locked door or chest.

    Critical failures and successes... can result in visually depicted clumsiness, or with exceptional/unusual animations (indicative of the severity of the roll).

    The developer still needs to signal to the player —why— these events occur... otherwise they just happen with no understanding of the various influences; nor of what changes improve them. Numbers do this automatically.

    It can be done... but IMO this would become a chore to watch—after the first few times. The numbers instantly tell the result, and the player can visualize it if they choose. Done visually... it would be akin to the voiced character always (unskippably) speaking the dialog that you have just read in the captions.
    Last edited: May 4, 2018
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  8. President_Peaches

    President_Peaches First time out of the vault

    Mar 4, 2018
    A RPG isn't a RPG unless you can build your own character/s- the player has the freedom to choose who they are (more "superficial" aspects of a character such as sex and background) as well as what they do (how the character chooses to interact with the world using their skills and abilities). I just have no idea how you would implement that effectively without stats.

    A CYOA book or game with a branching storyline is not the same thing, even with RPG elements.
  9. woo1108

    woo1108 Vault Senior Citizen

    Sep 27, 2012
    Let me explain little bit.
    Did I said stat is useless? no.
    I just said stat building of Fallout 1 and 2 is flawed. I Already said there is better option: give more options to build character after charater making.

    In Wasteland 1, there are a lot of chance to increase skill and stat "after" character creation. same for Arcanum and NV.

    and for skyrim, I just indicate that level scailing destroyed skill system
  10. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Nov 26, 2007
    I disagree. RPGs merely need a defined character, and the reactive opportunities where one may roleplay the character's extrapolated actions. The more defined they are, the easier it is to extrapolate how they would react.

    *Seriously, All they have to do is dictate that the PC is a pampered prince, and the player should know immediately how they would react when trapped in a sewer or a prison, or when offered a filthy blanket. Dictate instead that the PC is a huntsman (or huntswoman), and in the same situations they'd not likely act like a pampered prince(ess).

    I don't see how defining one's own PC is integral. Indeed... developer assigned characters can have the entire game carefully tailored to them, because they know exactly who the character is when they write the content.

    You don't create Geralt of Rivia... And Witcher (1) is one of the better RPGs that I have played.
    (Yeah... they do the amnesia thing... it allows selective relearning; same as in Planescape:Torment, with the Nameless One. But in the strictest sense, they could have defined all the stats and skills from the outset, and it would still be an RPG.)

    **That said... Having player created characters is usually a good idea; especially when their possible traits and aspects are carefully anticipated in the dialog, and situations that they might encounter.
    Last edited: May 5, 2018
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  11. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
  12. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Gerald of Rivia as pampered prince ... Yeah, you can not get that image out of your head now.