Strange arguments you had with other Fallout fans?

Discussion in 'General Fallout Discussion' started by RevBladeZ, Aug 17, 2017.

  1. R.Graves

    R.Graves Confirmed Retard

    Apr 21, 2016
    Whether not they are acceptable is subjective. I personally thing they are okay. But the graphics are outdated. That's fact.
     
  2. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    I also disliked the aesthetic as a whole. Everything looks plastic and all the weapons, even weapons created by Bethesda and stated to be Military grade stuff built pre war are now just junk assembled together by retards. The Gauss Rifle is like a bunch of Car Betteries with exposed cables, the Powerfist is some weird construction tool with everything and a twisted rebarb among other things. Their human models also still look horrible and the animations are just as janky.
     
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  3. Ben Soto

    Ben Soto Professional Salt Shaker

    731
    Jul 7, 2014
    Again, I have to disagree. The graphics are perfectly fine. They aren't cutting edge, but they aren't outdated. The game looks like it should for the year it came out.
     
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  4. R.Graves

    R.Graves Confirmed Retard

    Apr 21, 2016
    Uncharted 4 uncharted-4-two-column-03-ps4-eu-06jan17.png Fallout 4
    Fallout 4 zombie rush.jpg
     
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  5. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Everything looks so ugly, muddy and the satuartion is all wrong.
     
  6. Valdetiosi

    Valdetiosi Valde

    324
    Jul 14, 2017
    I have to agree with the graphics right here. They look outright horrible. I have to wonder with a game that had more developement time than New Vegas had, how did they manage to only recycle assets from their previous games and not add something to stand up with newer games.

    As for another arguement to have:
    Billy: Also the start characters while defined in two "roles" don't stop you from writing your own story. What did Nate do before the army and what did he do in it? Was he a lazy shitbag or part of a scouting unit? I mean it even leaves it open that you could be a synth. Also New vegas wasn't that open, it was actually a little worse because of the inclusion of the other courier. Everytime you track down something about him, the game fleshes out who your character was more. You had a significantly more detailed background because of the lonesome road. FO4 doesn't go nearly into that much detail. Now if you want to apply that logic to the stupid dialog choices and your lack of being able to be evil I understand, but it's not as restrictive as your rose colored glasses for NV make it seem to be.

    Me: The only instances of Courier being fleshed out is that you have been having work at Hopeville, Primm and Goodsprings. The dialogue choices the game offers are not canon and it is the way to flesh out the character on your own likings, to keep the character blank. But hey, this won't stop you from writing your own story, right?

    I'm really concerned about this, since I think he assumes that optional dialogue choices in New Vegas are canon.
     
  7. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude! Com on!

    You confuse personal perference with facts right now.

    The engine they use IS outdated and so is the graphic FOR THE KIND OF HARDWARE THAT IS AVAILABLE. Like someone has alrady shown here, there are games from 2009 that look at least as good like Fallout 4. You can and should expect much more from a company like Bethesda.

    You can take a 50 year old car, pimp it a little up and use it to drive to work and feel fine with it. But that doesn't change the fact that it's outdated.
     
  8. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    Call of Pripyat recycles almost the entirety of SHOC and CS, plus the graphics really show their age. Compare the foliage, the shadowing, the general sharpness of the image versus what I feel is the more natural, soft look of Fallout 4.

    I've stared at STALKER graphics for years on end (particularly at COP while translating it) and the graphics are decent, but showing their age already.

    There, fixed it for you.[/QUOTE]
     
  9. Valdetiosi

    Valdetiosi Valde

    324
    Jul 14, 2017
    STALKER graphics are hit and miss with most of the weaponry, but it's the building textures that shines and just grows the beard along with the age. The lighting upon the games is also pretty amazing and is one way to forgive some more shoddy texture work.

    Oh you cheeky bastard, I see what you did there. :smug:
     
  10. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    It's not that I changed my mind (Fallout 3 is still a bad, bad Fallout game), but Fallout 4 showed to me that Bethesda does get Fallout (and after twenty years of playing the game, including countless playthroughs of Fo1/2, that was something my brain refused to admit at first, out of sheer reflex).

    There was no existing lore about Vertibirds in Fo2, so you can't say it doesn't fit existing lore when said lore doesn't exist.

    Fo1/2 ghosts and aliens are better, because Iply/BlackIsle, then?

    Obsessing over trivial details is not sane. Also, Coffin Willie. Immortal ghouls that don't need air, food, or water to survive.

    Never established which FEV, not to mention, as pointed in the other thread out, nothing in the wording of the transfer order in Fo1 ever implies that the entirety of FEV research nationwide was moved to Mariposa. A lowly Major does not have that kind of pull.

    FEV has been turned into a genericized method for achieving instant mutation which makes sense, given that it's not the FEV that achieves mutation, but the introns loaded into it (as stated by ZAX), which correct the DNA and then recursive patterns force the body's regrowth. There's plenty of potential there.

    I didn't hear you scream your head off about advanced power armor or the T-45 in Van Buren.

    The T-60 makes plenty of sense, being an updated version of the T-45. The T-45 remaining in service for nearly ten years until the T-51 was completed was always a stretch. Just look at the evolution of tanks in WW2.

    It's never made clear whether they are actually sentient or just sophisticated robots that pull off a convincing impression of sentience. For starters, note how they are still constrained by their original programming. A sentient creature would not do that.

    Assaultrons don't feel emotions.

    It makes more sense than "lol jenkem".
     
  11. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    In which way do they get it? And I don't say this to be offensive, I am genuely interested.

    Because for me personaly, making it into a shooter, is well moving as far away from Fallout as you possibly can.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2017
  12. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    So Tagaziel answer is "they retconned so it's fine, also don't think about THAT detail".

    Also Assaultrons do feel emotions. The Assaultron in Automaton literally expresses sadness and anger.
     
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  13. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    And the sales Assaultron in Goodneighbor has a whole new personality and a plan to kill everyone around her. Something that shows initiative and very human behaviour (because why would a robot need to write those plans down on an external computer?). Sure, it's all simulated, but as I said before, there has been a jump from Programmed-Forbidden-Planet-Style robot to Passes-Turing-Test-Easier-Than-ZAX. Curie, Kl-E-0, Codsworth, Ada, they're all well beyond what has been previously shown for normal sized robots.

    As for the T-60, it's kinda odd that the T-60 seems to be a development of the T-45 rather than the T-51. It would have made sense if it was a BoS-developed improvement, but they had to ruin that by putting the T-60 in the pre-war sequence so they could show it in their trailers and pre-release footage.
     
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  14. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    I mean, basically every flaw that applies to Fallout 3(Apart from maybe the "What do they eat" flaw and other minor things) can be seen in 4 but worse.

    Also, given that Fallout is more about the RP mechanics then it is sheerly about having lots of writing(Most of which doesn't work well with the previous games no matter what you say), then how can you say they get Fallout when they blatantly put no effort in to making a good RPG with lots of possible interactions with a reactive world?

    I genuinely cannot see how anyone who realises Fallout 3 is a bad Fallout game can be completely ok with Fallout 4. What does 4 have that 3 doesn't?
    "The Enclave has developed vertibird technology, flying machines that allow them to move deeply into surrounding territories."
    -Matthew, Fallout 2(Source: http://fallout.gamepedia.com/FCFMATT.MSG)

    You hear that, they developed Vertibird technology. They developed the technology Tagaziel

    So much for knows the lore like the back of your hand eh?

    How about you actually play these games instead of making stupid claims about them? If you actually listened to the lore of the games instead of making stupid claims which are demonstrably false, you might actually have valid arguments.

    Oh and, before you try and defend your fragile pride, you literally said "There was no existing lore about Vertibirds in Fo2", I found proof of existing lore about Vertibirds, in a really, really obvious place to look.

    Mr. "I'm so smart, I know the lore off by heart, people who miss things I find obvious are morons" missed something really obvious, right out in the open, and proved he doesn't know the lore nearly as well as he claims to.
    Fallout 1 literally includes Aliens as a 5 second Easter Egg. Much like the Tardis and the Star Trek encounters. Can you genuinely not see the difference between a 5 minute easter egg and one of the only few quests in the game with effort put in to it?

    Fallout 2 - Yeah the ghost bit was dumb, but nobody denies that it was dumb, and it was written to be a whacky little encounter, and doesn't have very big ramifications for the Fallout universe.

    Fallout 4 - An entire questline, not even trying to be silly or whacky(And don't try and argue it wasn't trying to be a serious quest, you are obviously supposed to build some sort of attachment to the Cabot's, and have to make a big, dramatised choice at the end), that if true has huge ramifications for the Fallout Universe, given that the entire ending choice for Fallout New Vegas becomes pointless when you realise that whoever digs up the Mojave for long enough gets tons of alien equipment.
    Obsessing over trivial details?, Mate, the "Ghouls don't need to eat/drink" was the entire premise of that questline.

    If thinking the entire premise of one of the few genuine quests that goes beyond "Go here, kill this" is stupid and contradictory to lore is obsessing over trivial details, then I don't know what are big enough details to mention.

    Coffin Willie - Yeah that was dumb. Fallout 2 has lots of dumb shit, in fact almost everyone accepts that there is dumb shit in Fallout 2(Something that you don't seem to have accepted about Fallout 4), but at least it was a silly, one off encounter instead of one of the few actual quests with choices.
    "All FEV Research nationwide", you see, the flaw in that is that you are assuming that there is FEV Research outside of West-Tek. Given that West-Tek literally developed the FEV Virus(Oh and, you can't say someone else may have done the same research, since FEV came about by accident when experimenting on a Pan-Immunity Protection Virus. The odds of two companies accidentally discovering FEV at the same time because they just so happened to be using the exact same methods to develop a cure for the New Plague is beyond massively coincidental)

    West-Tek developed FEV, and I think there would be, IDK, at least some mention of it somewhere in West-Tek if anyone outside took there research on. West-Tek literally never mentions other firms showing an interest in there research.

    Also:

    http://fallout.gamepedia.com/FEV_experiment_disk

    "Major Barnett has ordered transfer of all FEV research to the Mariposa Military Base."

    Does it say "Major Barnett has ordered transfer of all our FEV research to the military base"?, No, it says all FEV research. That implies that the research they are doing, is all the FEV research that's being done.
    There's plenty of potential there, yet Bethesda never uses that potential.

    Bethesda only uses FEV to create more knock-off Supermutants in every single game, but instead of including the ideology of the Supermutants, how they are intergrating with the wasteland, and there reasons for fighting and everything that makes them interesting, they make them dumb orcs who love killing.

    I'd forgive Bethesda for this if they actually had interesting reasons to bring back the FEV, instead of making every single wasteland have Supermutants simply to appeal to worn out Fallout Tropes, and not having any real reasons to be included.
    "I didn't hear you complain about the power armor in a game that was never actually released."

    Take a step back, and realise how insanely dumb you sound right now, thinking a criticism is invalid because a game that WAS NEVER RELEASED would have had the same issues.

    ALSO, Why would we complain about T-45 Power Armour?. The Fallout Timeline literally mentions a clunkier, less efficient Power Armour that was disregarded due to the development of T-51 Power Armour("The first suit of Power Armor is deployed in Alaska. While lacking the full mobility of future versions, this Power Armor is incredibly effective against Chinese tanks and infantry." http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Fallout_Bible_0)(Notice how I'm citing all my claims, something you are failing to do now. How 'bout you put more effort in to your posts, you've gotten lazy Tag :-D)

    As for Advanced Power Armour, I mean the game literally establishes it as a new brand of Power Armour. It literally does not contradict previous lore(
    "Enclave scientists develop a reliable version of the Mark II Power Armor. The prototype results (and accidents... and explosions... and deaths) are classified by order of the President Richardson for the sake of morale." - Fallout Bible 0(Link above))


    T-60 Power Armour literally does, given that apparently even West-Tek doesn't know about this new Power Armour they developed
    "Hey guys, the development of these high-tech polymer battlesuits doesn't correspond to the development of WW2 Tanks. These two things are exactly the same."

    The truth of the matter is that Bethesda just wanted to put a new cool suit of Power Armour in, and didn't even think about the ramifications of it
    (For example, they didn't think for a second that if T-60 is the newest pre-war Power Armour, then how come West-Tek, the company that literally made Power Armour, was unaware of T-60s existence. Look at the dialogue for the ZAX: https://fallout.gamepedia.com/GPWRTERM.MSG, Under "Power Armour Status: Complete" it literally goes in to detail as to the T-51 Project. You'd think if there was T-60 Power Armour, the ZAX would have been updated, right?)

    The only reason you are defending this decision is because it benefits how you personally think the lore should be, not because Bethesda genuinely thought through that "Tank development" thing. You are coming up with educated justifications for a company that most likely didn't even bother to think of the ramifications of what they are writing.
    As mentioned above, a creature constrained to it's programming would not have notes on it's computer about how to kill everyone in town(KLE-0)

    A creature constrained to it's programming would not show genuine moral concern for the things you do(Codsworth)

    A creature constrained to it's proggraming would not wish to be put in a humanoid body(Curie)

    A creature constrained to it's programming certainly wouldn't feel love and/or affection(Curie)

    These are robots who could pass the Turing Test without a second glance. Compare to Fallout 1 and 2 where robots are mostly unsophisticated things bound to routine orders. You could never have a proper conversation with a Mr Handy, because they were simple things bound to programming.

    Now every single Robot in the game has some debate over whether or not they are sapient beings.
    I mean, people get have been known to get high off of all sorts of shit from cough medicine, to glue, to cat piss, but apparently getting high off of Brahmin Shit is too silly.

    It may have started off as a joke, but it's well explained enough to constitute being taken seriously as lore(Oh and don't try that "The explanation doesn't make scientific sense" bullshit, because you know as well as I do that Fallout doesn't work on real world science)

    Also, no it doesn't make more sense. The whole point of Jet was to be a drug that nobody ever kicks the habit of, that there is no way round, and everyone will be indebted to you forever when high on it. It's made so that the Mordino's could build an Empire.

    If it's a pre-war drug, that means that there would be entire cities under the control of drug dealers, and that those who made and sold Jet would be the most powerful people in the world. It would have huge ramifications for the world of Fallout which Bethesda wasn't even considering.

    Also, just because you personally agree with a retconn doesn't make it more acceptable. In a game that differentiates between whose writing it regularly, the writers should have basic respect for one another. If Bethesda didn't like Black Isle's idea of jet they shouldn't have included it. If we let every writer retconn what they don't like, it would result in endless battles of writers overriding each other all the time. It would be like Avellone's introduction of Tunnelers, but actively contradictory to any consistency and established lore.[/QUOTE]
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
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  15. CerberusGate

    CerberusGate I should save my game in a whole new slot

    Jun 6, 2016
    I do have a gripe with the T-60 being the pinnacle of pre-War power armors whereas in terms of aesthetic and design, it seems like a step backwards in power armor design. It's more T-45's aesthetic rather than the more refined T-51 and even less Enclave PA which thankfully is still the pinnacle of power armors.

    The lore points out the kind of things that T-51b had to make it an ideal power armor.
    The fact that 3 acknowledged how the T-45d PA was inferior design-wise and how much they improved with T-51's designs was a nice touch from 3.

    I agree with Hass that the T-60 should have been a CW Brotherhood project to improve their T-45d stockpiles (either by incorporating Enclave tech or using their expanded resources) rather than retcon the established fact that T-51b was the pinnacle of pre-War power armors so that they could feature it in the trailers.
     
  16. Risewild

    Risewild Carbon Dated and Proud
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Just to warn that you seemed to not have finished some sentences, or cut them half way.
     
  17. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    Fallout 3 actually has a lot of good pre-war touches, and does, in lots of places show they've done there research. It's a shame that the post-war storylines had to be so garbage.
    Yeah I do that a lot. Sometimes I get distracted by what's going to be in the next sentence and forget I'm halfway through one.

    I'll sort it out.
     
  18. R.Graves

    R.Graves Confirmed Retard

    Apr 21, 2016
    I wouldn't near call that a minor flaw. That's a very large improvement Imo. Though its sad that that's something that needed improving on.
     
  19. Risewild

    Risewild Carbon Dated and Proud
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    No problem, I do that a lot too.
    I just thought you might like to know, since I would too :postviper:
     
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  20. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    I mean, yeah as far as world-building goes it should be concern #1.

    But honestly, there are so many different ways they could have made the world more believable, improving by doing the bare minimum that any believable world would do is kinda lazy.

    Plus, let's face it, it didn't take much effort to consider what they eat, given that the vast majority of effort they put in to the game was in to Settlement Building, a system which literally requires you to spend time placing food for settlers.