No matter the motive, the fact still remains they killed 1.5 million Armenians. Even if they gave them peanuts unaware that the Armenians have a gene for peanut allergy, or something. Those guys are dead.
Sweden recognizes Armenian genocide...
- Thread starter victor
- Start date
I have a friend who is of an armenian family and she loves peanut. True story
cronicler
Lurksalot
Sigh. Ottoman empire as you might recall if you are intrested in history was in a very bad position. It had lost most of its army's effectiveness, it didn't have an education system and it didn't have industrial capability.
When Russian forces started their push from the Caucasus, the army groups that were to stop them were pretty much the bottom scrapings of the barrel. Russians used the ethnic agitation to arm Armenian gangs as 5th column.
To counter that Ottoman High command decided to move the Armenian population south, southwest instead of going postal on them.
There wasn't enough trasnports, the weather was horrible and the region was a warzone. A lot of civilians died.
What most tender hearted people love to gloss over is the little fact that for every 3 Armenians that died in the period, 3 Turk and about 1.5 to 2.5 Russian soldiers died too.
Did the civilians die? Yes
Was it done to eradicate, genocide them? Ironically No, the whole thing was started as an alternative to decimating the local population.
What bothers me is not the scientific research into the period/ events. That should be done.
However what we see now is just dirty political asskissing and kicking.
A lot of Followers of Crist just want my country to go away and preferably burn in fire just becouse of the prevaliling religion im my country is different. Here is a newsflash for you, before you tenderhearted liberalist idiots channelled loads of support to the assholes that are crapping my country, most of the people here were different from the masses that are clogging your countries. We can either become your partners or your enemies.
What would your reaction would be if a Politician from a prominent country came out and said that they were openly supporting people who use terrorist acts in your country?
Dragula; Just show me someone, some civilisation that wasn't hard on conquered untill they were assimilated. Hell you should know what happened between Swedes and Danes trough the years over pettiest things ffs.
(remake: A/S/L olacak ama 27/m/Ist. Sen?)
When Russian forces started their push from the Caucasus, the army groups that were to stop them were pretty much the bottom scrapings of the barrel. Russians used the ethnic agitation to arm Armenian gangs as 5th column.
To counter that Ottoman High command decided to move the Armenian population south, southwest instead of going postal on them.
There wasn't enough trasnports, the weather was horrible and the region was a warzone. A lot of civilians died.
What most tender hearted people love to gloss over is the little fact that for every 3 Armenians that died in the period, 3 Turk and about 1.5 to 2.5 Russian soldiers died too.
Did the civilians die? Yes
Was it done to eradicate, genocide them? Ironically No, the whole thing was started as an alternative to decimating the local population.
What bothers me is not the scientific research into the period/ events. That should be done.
However what we see now is just dirty political asskissing and kicking.
A lot of Followers of Crist just want my country to go away and preferably burn in fire just becouse of the prevaliling religion im my country is different. Here is a newsflash for you, before you tenderhearted liberalist idiots channelled loads of support to the assholes that are crapping my country, most of the people here were different from the masses that are clogging your countries. We can either become your partners or your enemies.
What would your reaction would be if a Politician from a prominent country came out and said that they were openly supporting people who use terrorist acts in your country?
Dragula; Just show me someone, some civilisation that wasn't hard on conquered untill they were assimilated. Hell you should know what happened between Swedes and Danes trough the years over pettiest things ffs.
(remake: A/S/L olacak ama 27/m/Ist. Sen?)
cronicler said:
It would be lovely if it could be done. Sadly, many Western states censor research on the topic, while Turkey itself refuses to give full access to its sources. While both these situations remain, it is inane to pretend there is any surety on the Armenian genocide. There's consensus, but it is political, not scientific, in nature, both the Western consensus and the Turkish one.
Dragula said:
You're such a cute little troll.
Alphadrop said:
No, of course I'm not saying that. The events of the (post) WWI era have been tragic for the Armenian people living under the Ottoman Empire.
But we have to remember that about the same number of Muslims were killed by Armenian rebels during the same period. I'm not saying this to justify the deaths of millions. I'm just trying to point out the magnitude of only one of the conflicts going on in minor-asia/Ottoman Empire in those years.
Considering that the population of Anatolia was around 13 million in 1915 you naturally want to do something when one fourth of your mainland population is killing each other. The Ottomans chose to deport the rebellious minority. Deportations were a quiet common way of solving and preventing tensions in problematic areas throughout the history of the empire. But this time that's where it all went wrong.
When the current Turkish ruling party came to power they offered to start a joint academic research with Armenia. Both countries would allow access to their archives and let a team of Turkish and Armenian historians look into the matter. But Armenia refused. Which makes me wonder whether this is about historical justification or diplomatic power.
What I'm trying to say is that at the moment there isn't enough evidence to claim that an Armenian genocide took place. A lot of terrible shit was happening at the time everywhere in the Ottoman Empire. I'm of Sephardi Jewish/Bosnian decent and my family had to migrate back to Istanbul from Rumelia in the late 19th century. I can tell you that it wasn't a pretty ride back home.
If all these neo-imperialistic nations and their parliaments are so sensitive about these issues I'd also like to see them bring up: what happened to the Jews of Salonica, or the Muslims in Albania. Actually, no need to go that back in time I'd like to see them bring up: what happened in Bosnia, or what's happening to the Turkish minority in Bulgaria? Or if they really insist on talking about minorities that live(d) under Turkish rule... why not talk about the Alevis? Oh I know why. Because it's not profitable.
(cronicler, ben hollanda'dayim. burada okuyorum. hehe, fallout sitesinde turk gormek sasirtti dogrusu
)
As I said right before your post, remake, I would be careful about definitive statements on these events. There's too little reliable research.
Also, Dutch Turk eh? You must be ecstatic about our recent politics as well
Also, Dutch Turk eh? You must be ecstatic about our recent politics as well
Well its definetly strange how many refuse to have the Turks in the European Union. Not that I have a oppinion about that sine I havnt really much read about it. But still. I guess part of that had to do with how they deal with their minorities right now.
Crni Vuk said:
*shrugs* It's mostly left-over xenophobia, but I don't mind. The EU has been expanding at a historical foolish rate, and is clearly overstretching. More expansion in any direction will pretty much doom it to failure, if it hasn't been doomed to fail already. It expanded significantly faster than it stabilized, and its democratic institutions are a joke.
pfff ... letz kick out greece and we have room again 
But youre right I am not that confident in europes future either.
But youre right I am not that confident in europes future either.
whats the deal with greece? Everybody hates them now, why? Just because their economy crashed?
Radiated Heinz said:
Greece has been a trouble-child of the EU for longer than just recently, both economically and politically. It and Italy are probably polar opposites of EU darlings Ireland and Portugal.
But yeah, right now the fact that their economic instability pretty much wrecks the Euro is not liked. Which is funny, because their ramshod way of running government financials is not that much worse than Germany's or France's was. If the big boys won't play by the rules, why should Greece?
Like I said, expanded too fast, never got problem points like these out of the way.
hmm, I see.
once I saw a video about corruption in the European Parliament, with the Parlamentars didnt going to work and stuff. Its really that bad?
once I saw a video about corruption in the European Parliament, with the Parlamentars didnt going to work and stuff. Its really that bad?
Brother None said:As I said right before your post, remake, I would be careful about definitive statements on these events. There's too little reliable research.
Also, Dutch Turk eh? You must be ecstatic about our recent politics as well
Ja, vriend. Ik vind het kanker errug! I don't sound Turkish right?
I've been living here since 6 years now. I just hope that I get my Dutch passport before Wilders gains enough power to kick me out.
Which city are you from BN?
Crni Vuk said:
It's hard to define ethnic minorities though. The society is way too homogeneous to actually be separated into groups. It's not like in Europe where you can see the ethnicity of someone from their skin color, accent, manners etcetera...
The Republican period has been totalitarian, yes. But this was required to establish a nation state which was the only way of surviving the first half of the last century. The government has been very slow on giving back certain freedoms. I concur. We as the people of Turkey lost a big part part of our cultural identity (I can read an English book written four centuries ago but I can't read a Turkish book written before the alphabet reform of 1928. And even if I could I wouldn't be able to understand it). The oppressive policies of the Turkish governments were not only against 'minorities' but against every Turkish citizen for somewhat justifiable reasons if placed within the right historical context.
If we look at the rest of the ex-Ottoman nations, on could easily see, Turkey didn't do bad after all. By no means near perfect but at least aware -sometimes a bit too much- of its problems and willing to solve them.
PS: not that I wanna join the EU but if countries like Bulgaria and Greece can become members I really don't see how Turkey is still not let in...
cronicler
Lurksalot
Radiated Heinz said:
It doesn't have enough raw production or virtual income (taxes from corporations and import/exports) to support it's budget.
I am not sure about the % but actually the expanses are not too much over the base income but the extra Military budget (which is actually against Turkiye, in case we get aggressive and invade) has been distorting the whole picture.
It has been about 15 years of steady payments to German and French (and Belgian) defence corporations that created this mess.
As a military force, they have top of the line gear for their Armor and Airforce, a decent brown navy and good basic infantry gear.
What they lack is the arnament industry to support most of their gear locally so its military is a big drain even after the initial purchases.
(And before you jump in, yes it's no different on this side of the pond either. The tensions have been used as internal political tools for so long that there isn't any real thought on the moves and countermoves anymore.)
TheGM
The voice of reason
Was this done for brownie points? I mean all the Amriniens that died are dead(duh) and the country that did no longer exists. So what Is the point? are You going to sanction the oldest man in Turkey?
Brother None said:
Heh funny how you mention that when I just had to hear in TV not long ago that our minister of finance had to take depths ... again. How much this time ? Not sure 80 Billions ? It was definetly a new record ...
Sometimes when I think about how many nations have depths. Be it the US, France, Germany, ANY nation really. Its kinda interesting when you look in to the future 20 ? 50 years ? If all this budget plans are exploding ... who will own the US, Europe the world in the end? I mean when I have depths on my house or car ... and cant pay ... well I pretty well know what happens. How is it going with a nation ? >_>
Will banks own everything ?
cronicler
Lurksalot
Crni; Let me try to put things into basic perspective.
Debt, when talking on international scale, means that the nation in question does not have the liquid cash (banknotes, gold bars and other portable trading items).
But unlike a person, a nation can issue "bond"s to trade future production for immediate liquid assets. (The closest thing a person can do to this is indenturing himself/herself for a fixed time limit like paying off college loans after finishing college.)
The bonds issued by different countries has created a speculative market, a web of interconnectedness that grows more and more every day.
Country A might be in debt but it's banks might be holding bonds that are issued from Country B that holds Country A's debt.
Explained this way, it probably sounds very silly but nations need a lot of financial "room" to do things. Up to a point an economy needs to issue bonds to keep things circulating.
This whole thing creates flexibility which is a great strenght for economies and at the same time a very weak point.
On one hand If common people become afraid, drop out of the circulation, start hoarding, the system gets locked up (ala last time), On the other hand if things go "ballooning" (Too much debt, too inflated prices, too much), the system unbalances again and stumbles.
The crisis points might seem sudden but actually it takes time for the landmines to be armed. If it can be defused while things are still working, then most common people won't even notice it but if it is allowed to fester than... Well we saw how unchecked and virtually inflated land prices turned out.
GM: As far as I can see, it was political dickbeating and the usual Turks are evil rant.
More weirdly, everytime someone (Turk or local Armenian) tries to get the border between Armenia and Turkiye open to large scale trading (instead of regional dribbles) this issue is heated up. I know Turks are believed to be paranoids but once is a chance two is suspicious, what is 20?
Debt, when talking on international scale, means that the nation in question does not have the liquid cash (banknotes, gold bars and other portable trading items).
But unlike a person, a nation can issue "bond"s to trade future production for immediate liquid assets. (The closest thing a person can do to this is indenturing himself/herself for a fixed time limit like paying off college loans after finishing college.)
The bonds issued by different countries has created a speculative market, a web of interconnectedness that grows more and more every day.
Country A might be in debt but it's banks might be holding bonds that are issued from Country B that holds Country A's debt.
Explained this way, it probably sounds very silly but nations need a lot of financial "room" to do things. Up to a point an economy needs to issue bonds to keep things circulating.
This whole thing creates flexibility which is a great strenght for economies and at the same time a very weak point.
On one hand If common people become afraid, drop out of the circulation, start hoarding, the system gets locked up (ala last time), On the other hand if things go "ballooning" (Too much debt, too inflated prices, too much), the system unbalances again and stumbles.
The crisis points might seem sudden but actually it takes time for the landmines to be armed. If it can be defused while things are still working, then most common people won't even notice it but if it is allowed to fester than... Well we saw how unchecked and virtually inflated land prices turned out.
GM: As far as I can see, it was political dickbeating and the usual Turks are evil rant.
More weirdly, everytime someone (Turk or local Armenian) tries to get the border between Armenia and Turkiye open to large scale trading (instead of regional dribbles) this issue is heated up. I know Turks are believed to be paranoids but once is a chance two is suspicious, what is 20?
bonds or not. But at some point you reach a limit ... particularly when you think about it who is paying those depths ... the people with their taxes ...
not always. State companies pay these too. And bonds.
But youre right, most of a nation's wealth come from taxes.
But the fact is that nation's economy can crash, but there will be other nations and world organizations like WTO to make bankrupt nations be dependent of them and save them from economy bankrupt, allowing them to recover their economy someday in the future.
But youre right, most of a nation's wealth come from taxes.
But the fact is that nation's economy can crash, but there will be other nations and world organizations like WTO to make bankrupt nations be dependent of them and save them from economy bankrupt, allowing them to recover their economy someday in the future.