The brother hood of Steel in FO3

Discussion in 'Fallout 3 Discussion' started by Texas Renegade, Sep 10, 2008.

  1. Bionicpope

    Bionicpope First time out of the vault

    Sep 2, 2008
    Harmless in intent, is nothing like harmless in a physical sense.

    Harmless in intent is more or less saying that with their intentions that didn't mean or cause any harm. Now if you really want to twist it around, you can say that when they are attacked, then they will cause harm, but any body would defend themselves.

    As far as the BoS moving around and coming to DC, I do not find it so hard to believe. Why would they not go in search of bigger better weapons? Isn't that what they really want? There could be a large number of stock piled weapons, hidden behind some heavy locked vault door, that the government built. Then again they might just find designs for some amazing weapons.

    I don't see that as being altruistic. Then add into the fact that going from California to D.C. is a huge trip. There is no telling what they saw out there in the wastes. They might have learned the true horrors of the war, and saw how people were truly affected. Other than people who are psychotic, almost everyone can feel sorry for people who are suffering greatly. This could have changed that one groups out look, and perhaps changed the rest of BoS. No one really knows how bad the Central part of the United States is.

    Do we really know if the BoS is altruistic now? I mean the game really isn't out yet, and all we have as far as the plot goes is our dad is a doctor that ran away, and the few quests show in videos.
  2. Moving Target

    Moving Target Mildly Dipped

    Oct 25, 2007
    Here's the big question though: Why would they go across the country to do it? And into the old capital, which would most likely be heavily bombed out, or, if not, probably already picked clean? And why go, basically, on a rumor or myth?

    They saw the horrors of the war already. They sent wannabes to a location in FO 1 where it was evident.

    If the Glow didn't move them to ideas of altruism, if watching the Supermutants stomp all over the settlements of the Wastes didn't get them to care, if they were willing to sit back and be prejudiced against outsiders, why such a big change?

    It's just as likely that the long trip, assuming it did happen, would harden them and make them want to become even more insular.

    Not if they're a "Fuck you I got mine" insular organization like the BoS. They take care of their own, and that's it. That's their "thing;" they're like the monastic orders, or knightly orders, of Medieval times. They don't really care about anyone else. They're looking after their own interests, nobody else's.

    And just because it *could* happen over time doesn't mean it's likely, or more importantly, that it fits with the Fallout lore. The Brotherhood are just one example of coping with the horrors of war: where some communities pulled together and started raiding, and others began farming or raising animals, the Brotherhood turned inward (partially because of their military background) and started only caring about their own interests. To have them make such a huge turnaround, and not simply make a different faction with powered armor, is, I think, moronic.

    Here's another issue: Let's say the Brotherhood did get across the continent, with power armor. Why not change their name? They act different, their purpose and focus are different, and the non-changed BoS faction is still kicking around DC.... so why not create their own identity, separate from the insular BoS?

    Which then brings up the point I mentioned earlier: Bethsoft could have just as easily come up with a high-tech group as a stand-in for the Brotherhood, with a different history, that would be more believable in terms of motivation and location than the Brotherhood. Why they didn't do that, I'll never understand.

    We've got enough pre-release info to at least speculate. So far, the info which seemed like "Hey, it looks like this is going to be the case" has been true. And there's the article released months ago telling Bethsoft's version of what the Brotherhood's been up to since FO 2. That story includes splinter BoS groups (weird enough as it is) and the fact that one of the groups, in DC, is looking after the local population, Paladin-style.

    So, stop with the "Wait and see" stuff. Everything's come out almost exactly as the speculations have thought they were going to come out, and the Brotherhood ret-con is no exception.
  3. Jim Cojones

    Jim Cojones It Wandered In From the Wastes

    May 6, 2008
    Yes, we know: Faction Profile – the Brotherhood of Steel

  4. Black

    Black Vault Senior Citizen

    Jun 21, 2007
    And why didn't they go to Glow by themselves? They knew it's location, that it contains cool tech-stuff and yet they've sent some poor bastard and didn't even think he or she would come out alive.
    BoS likes technology but they won't risk shit for it- their main target is to survive.
  5. Ausir

    Ausir Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Apr 20, 2003
    Yeah - why would they send a contingent to the DC if they didn't even bother to explore the two high-tech bases they originated from - the Glow and Mariposa?
  6. Shadoweangel

    Shadoweangel First time out of the vault

    Jul 19, 2008
    Very good point Ausir.
    Maybe they ran out of unwitting saps to send into highly irradiated military bases? xD

    It seems a lot like Lyons has a rather unique opinion of how the super mutant threat might affect the BoS, let alone the Brotherhoods responsibility to the people.
    I kind of wonder if the Elders didn't allow him to go on his mission to DC in order to get him out of their hair.
    They may have assumed it was a suicide mission and sent him off in an attempt to silence him.

    I'm getting pretty close to contradicting their faction profile there, but it would go a long way to explaining the actions of the west coast division.
    Actually, truth be told I can't imagine Beth explains it that way =/ *shrugs*
  7. reticulate

    reticulate First time out of the vault

    Sep 9, 2008
    I'm going to call a quote out of context there. What you've selectively quoted makes it look like the BoS is now an altruistic organisation committed to saving the inhabitants of the wasteland, when actually it's a bit more complicated than that.

    If you read the entire profile, it states that despite pressure from back home to stick to the mission, Lyons found himself in a moral quandry - he can't just ignore the fact that people are dying out in the wasteland when he knows his people have the technology and the skills to protect them.

    As a result, he gets cut off from any support back home and loses a good number of his troops who also believed he was off-mission and threatening the ethos of the Brotherhood. He made a choice and is not only now stuck with fighting the super mutants, he's got his old war buddies playing the role that the BoS initially intended.

    If someone read the quote you provided and believed that was the intention at face value, they'd think Bethesda had ruined the Brotherhood by making them the 'good guys'. That's not the case at all, the only ones who could be considered good are a splinter faction that has no official support and is fighting against their own kind as well as whatever the wasteland throws at them.
  8. The Dutch Ghost

    The Dutch Ghost Grouchy old man of NMA Moderator

    Jan 11, 2004
    If Lyons was so determined to defend the wasteland population he would have to leave the Brotherhood, the BOS would not allow him to keep their technology.

    Stop defending a stupid idea.
  9. reticulate

    reticulate First time out of the vault

    Sep 9, 2008
    You're assuming they don't want their technology back.

    And if it's such a stupid idea, why not enlighten me? The concept seems pretty clear-cut from the profile Bethesda have written - he was sent to find technology and investigate super-mutants, he ends up wanting to help the survivors in the wasteland, he gets cut off from the Brotherhood and suffers a mutiny.

    So instead of re-writing the Brotherhood like some people here continue to suggest, they've actually made the politics of the Brotherhood far more interesting than a bunch of xenophobic techno-fetishists.
  10. Black

    Black Vault Senior Citizen

    Jun 21, 2007
    Yes, totally BoS-like behaviour. Remember when they went and investigated super mutants in Mariposa? Remember when they went to find technology in the Glow? No? Me neither.
  11. reticulate

    reticulate First time out of the vault

    Sep 9, 2008
    Point taken, however I do seem to remember them being very interested in a certain set of Vertibird plans.

    Just because the Brotherhood didn't investigate something doesn't preclude them from investigating anything, ever.

    Considering how picked-over the California region was by the end of Fallout 2 it's not exactly surprising they'd cast a wider net. We're talking about the intentions of a paramilitary organisation that was obsessed with technology, and loved to hoard it often to the detriment to everyone else. Why is it so hard to believe they'd send scouting parties out to areas they had no prior knowledge of?
  12. Black

    Black Vault Senior Citizen

    Jun 21, 2007
    And once again, they've sent some poor bastard instead of getting them by themselves.

    Please, this "argument" can be used to describe any change to any group in any film/video game/book. Just because something "can" change doesn't mean it fits the setting.

    We're talking about a bunch of egoist, nazi guys, sitting in their bunkers and not caring about others at all. If they were so obsessed with technology then the point stands: why didn't they explore the Glow? Why didn't they try to regain Mariposa? Why didn't they send a scouting party to Mariposa and used the vault dweller to do their shit for them instead?

    If you want a group of guys who'll sacrifice themselves for technology then maybe you should go with the Reavers from Tactics, not BoS.
  13. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    Ehm, Black, what the hell are you on about? The entire mission of the Brotherhood of Steel was to protect technology. Your rant makes no sense.
  14. Black

    Black Vault Senior Citizen

    Jun 21, 2007
    They want to protect the technology they currently possess or can get without breaking a sweat. If there's technology that they can't get without using 3rd parties (like vault dweller, chosen one) then they leave it alone.

    Also- Maxon on BoS' main purpose when asked about it.
  15. Quicken

    Quicken First time out of the vault

    Oct 16, 2008
    Ahem, 116 years after the events in Fallout 1, 36 years after the events in Fallout 2.
  16. madmaligor

    madmaligor First time out of the vault

    Oct 24, 2008
    (Quick note: Love the site, been lurking for a while now, you guys and gals do a great job of keeping things real on both sides of the coin...kudos!)

    Just an opinion, but when playing FO1 and 2 I always felt that the impacts of the "Hero" had far reaching effects on both sides of the moral bell curve. In both a positive and negative fashion. The idea that a splinter group of BoS scouts had a moral crisis, then set themselves up as some sort of protectorate, to me actually makes sense.

    I love the bleak theme in Fallout, and the idea that almost every group defines itself by the account and magnitude of its selfish actions, but that doesnt discount the many positive elements or people that have an effect, most notably the impact a "Guardian of the Waste" has on the game.

    There is also the idea that the BoS might also have rethought their position on isolation after the success of the Vault Dweller. Reliance on others too much seems to go against their outpost set ups and gathering reliable information.
  17. Ad Astra

    Ad Astra It Wandered In From the Wastes

    May 16, 2007
    I'll always love Fallout for casting the one person/creature/computer who was actively trying to save humanity as the "bad guy."

    As for the Brotherhood of Steel in Fallout 3, well...
    [spoiler:3cf8eff497]STEEL BE WITH YOU![/spoiler:3cf8eff497]
  18. sparkasaurusmex

    sparkasaurusmex First time out of the vault

    Oct 5, 2008
    Hope is a central theme in FO!!!

    Even if you're thinking that all you see is hopelessness, these towns strive to continue life. All that hopelessness is part of the vehicle that supports the theme of hope.

    If the fallout world was easy and happy and flourishing you couldn't use hope as a theme, because there's no need to even realize hope.

    Obviously when talking themes we get outside of writer's and programmers intentions (intentions do little to guide interpretations) so we're speaking subjectively about themes, but to me the themes of FO and FO2 are

    Hope/hopelessness (you see there's a duality there, but in this way HOPE is certainly a major theme, whether it's hope in abundance or a lack of it)

    Birth/Death (seeing the light for the first time as you exit the womb/vault)

    Life goes on (basic needs are hard to meet, water, etc... but all this struggling life is all over the wasteland)

    and yes, Dog Eat Dog. This one is more obvious and on the surface and probably a deliberate intention by the developers.
  19. UniversalWolf

    UniversalWolf eaten by a grue.

    Aug 28, 2005
    Here's how the Brotherhood of Steel fits into "Fallout 3".

    Coming up with ambiguous motives is something that requires thought and discussion, as well as skill and time to implement. Even if you successfully pull off ambiguity or complexity of motive, many of consumers will be too obtuse to appreciate that ambiguity, and in any case it's simply not necessary to get them to spend their money. Screenshots and reviews in magazines do more to accomplish that.

    It's simply much easier to simplify motives. Make the Brotherhood of Steel "The Good Guys™" and everyone understands at a glance, no effort or sophistication required . Product sold, the end.

    That's the exogame explanation, anyway. Why even bother with whatever silly story was concocted to rationalize it?
  20. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    Ok heres what I got from the two Fallout games.

    To re-iterate, the BOS only wants technology that can be snatched and grabbed. Otherwise its send in a poor sap or not risk their already gotten (and limited) gains on the chance of getting more. The failed expedition to the glow further re-enforces their position after the VD returns from the glow much to the surprise of the BOS.

    The BOS is a prewar military outfit. The only people they accept are people who possess the knowledge to become scribes or the combat training to become a knight. Those who are too weak too fight or who are either not intelligent enough or just do not want to become a scribe are expected to leave the organisation.

    Also the BOS is heavily indoctrinated. As said above, anyone who does not work with "the prgram" is expected to leave.

    Now lets put this into perspective.

    1. This new war hero embarks on a hundreds of miles journey, takes a buttload of resources (remember the BOS is apparently don't have that many resources to spare), all on the hope of finding technology. So even though the glow wasn't worth the risk, something hundreds of miles away is magically ok to go to?

    2. Their target destination also happens to be or should be strikingly familiar like the glow. DC I believe would be a major command and control center for the US government and most likely would have been nailed with multiple nuclear warheads. Once again if the glow wasn't worth going to why would the BOS risk more resources to something that would be ten times more irradiated.

    3. A journey from California to DC would only really be possible with verti-bird technology. I guess a trip on foot would be possible but I am sure the travellers would have sustained heavy casualties from raiders, remnants of the masters army, deathclaws, the environment (wasn't Cassidy the one who spoke about giant radioactive twisters), and equipment degredation. It also seems to me that the BOS only are able to maintain the technology that they have, they do not possess the capability to manufacture it. Now with all these problems to deal with, Lyons is gonna create more like cause a mutiny just so she can feel warm and fuzzy inside?