The brother hood of Steel in FO3

Discussion in 'Fallout 3 Discussion' started by Texas Renegade, Sep 10, 2008.

  1. Public

    Public Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    May 18, 2006
    BoS in FO3

    I would like to open another discussion, but about Brotherhood of Steel.

    Why they are there, or why they should be there, and what's different between East Coast and West Coast Brotherhood?
  2. Jahnri

    Jahnri First time out of the vault

    Nov 3, 2008
    :clap: Great question! I didn't get to play the Fallout Tactics. Can someone give me a short story of what happened? I have a feeling the BOS is falling apart on the east coast.
  3. kxre

    kxre First time out of the vault

    Oct 28, 2008
    The original westcoast BoS send a contigent of soldiers to the East to gather lost technology.

    That group of soldiers abandoned the true BoS mantra of hoarding technology and becomes the eastcoast BoS.
  4. Bal-Sagoth

    Bal-Sagoth Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    Nov 1, 2008
    Instead of sticking to the original idea of technology hoarding they made it the main mission of protecting the inhabitants of the Capitol Wasteland from Super Mutants.
  5. Starwars

    Starwars Mildly Dipped

    Sep 17, 2006
    Also, we now have the Brotherhood outcasts which claim to follow the "BoS of the west" and broke away from the Lyons "heroic" BoS. I kinda like that in itself but the problem is that the game sort of presents Lyons as the way to go, especially since there is much interaction with them during the main quest.

    As far as the outcasts go, I've very little actual content. Within the scope of the game, I think the BoS loses a lot of the gray area which made it interesting. The split in Fallout 3 essentially makes the Lyons BoS feel like the good guys and while the outcasts certainly don't feel downright evil, it feels like they are "wrong" in how the game presents them.
    And I hate how very militaristic it's become. It seems the only thing I heard from BoS people in the Citadel was how to kill "uglies", the mess they make when you blow up their heads and how good the solider in question is at shooting.

    Either way, it's really fucking annoying how Beth brought back all the factions of old. That was the area where I wanted Beth to come up with something of their own, especially since we're on the East Coast now. It doesn't work well at all when taking the old games into account.
  6. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    Don't forget how the scribes turned their getup into costumes straight from Gothic, and everyone has taken to talking as if they're in a bad fantasy videogame.

    They drop evil fingers, so the game considers them to be evil.
  7. Public

    Public Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    May 18, 2006
    Thanks for deleting my topic and moved it here. I didn't know about this one.

    Ok, we can asume that they totally changed their funtionality, but because of only one scribe who wanted to be a hero? BoS would throw this guy out, and he shouldn't be a scribe on the first place.

    Ok, we can asume that shit happends, maybe this time there was one guy who somehow changed the whole organisation's way of living. But "how" did he do that? It's not so simple to just tell someone what to do, and he will change his way of thinking because you said so.
    Kinda the same thing is with people who are possitive about Fallout 3.

    Nowadays, whoever is against any system, is evil :P
  8. Bal-Sagoth

    Bal-Sagoth Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    Nov 1, 2008
    They are still recognized by the west faction but are not supported in any way is what I have gathered on it so far.
  9. TheFlyingBuddha

    TheFlyingBuddha It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Oct 29, 2008
    The idea that they were sent east to look for tech is a relatively logical one, so that covers the "why" of it. Lyons then decides to dig in and work to combat the local mutants, leading to the shift. Again, logical, a leader made a conscious decision to change the point of the mission, leading to the regional splinter group that feels the old ways were best.

    The good/evil designation, while a bit of a stretch, isn't entirely unjustified. One group acts with compassion towards locals, while another is there simply to collect tech and hoard it. I do disagree that the outcasts are simply evil, but that will have to wait for a mod.

    The only inherently wrong thing about how BOS was handled is the way they talk. Whoever they hired to write some of their dialog simply took the knigtly stuff a step too far, even if it had more to do with Lyons being kind of off his rocker and leading the others off theirs.
  10. Hroesvelgr

    Hroesvelgr First time out of the vault

    Oct 29, 2008
    What's REALLY funny is that they go over this debate in the game... one thing that I've noticed is that Bethesda seems pretty ready to reconcile the liberties they take with the old story lines. In FO3 they make it pretty clear that the original BoS back west isn't all that happy with the way the D.C. chapter has handled things, and there are the purists who splinter off to continue what they see as their one and only mission. They are pretty harsh about it too... they mention wishing to see the D.C. BoS "traitors" presented before a firing squad and shot to death... so both the "Knights of the Wasteland" and the xenophobic assholes are represented. If you play FO3 you get the idea that Elder Lyons felt forced into his role as protector; the super mutant problem was so rampantly out of control that the Capitol area would have been completely overrun if the BoS had not intervened. At least they're not recruiting deathclaws and ghouls...
  11. Eyenixon

    Eyenixon Vault Senior Citizen

    Apr 11, 2008
    The West Coast BoS also helped remove Super Mutants from the surrounding wastes, but they weren't exactly doing it for the benefit of nearby societies.

    I'm certain the same could have applied to Fallout 3, it's just stupid that they used the BoS as an obvious vessel to be the "good guys". To me it just seems like a story gimmick they tried to pick up because they couldn't figure out how to make the player a substantial element without it seeming like some contrived "Man VS. World" scenario.
  12. Public

    Public Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    May 18, 2006
    They used the old idea, changed itno somethin else, and called it the same thing. With a small explenation.
  13. DOF_power

    DOF_power First time out of the vault

    Oct 29, 2008
    I think no one mentioned this or hasn't played the game entirely.

    Talking about those xenophobic/racist/ignorant bastards know as the (west coast) BoS.

    And another thing.

    So they're not the one dimensional good guys some fantics claim they are.

    But why should facts get in the way of a good F3/Bethesda bash ?!
  14. Eyenixon

    Eyenixon Vault Senior Citizen

    Apr 11, 2008
    Small isolated details have nothing to do with the big picture, those details are obviously just thrown in to make the new BoS seem as close as possible to the older one, it's their attempt to maintain some resemblance to the lore of Fallout.

    But their general picture of the BoS is pretty fucked up, ever since Tactics they've attempted to meld the old FO BoS with the "good" BoS and it's always come out messy, in FO3 it conflicts just as much.
    It's either one way or the other, the combination of both is just even more chaotic.
  15. Touquet

    Touquet Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Apr 20, 2007
    But the Eastern BOS were cast out because they think the BOS should open to the outside wold.... share technology and increase there rank with fresh recruit.

    The brotherhood is split in two

    The faction that believed the brotherhood should actively seek to govern the surrounding areas, forcing civilization upon them, grew stronger, and a verbal war raged between the more moderate faction that believed in sharing technology and allowing settlements to develop on their own and the revolutionary faction.

    Fearing that this battle of ideologies would tear the brotherhood apart, the elders who had a slim moderate majority in the council, by virtue of the moderate high elder, sent the revolutionary faction away where it could not harm the brotherhood in California, on a mission to the far East, to follow the mutant armies and gather information on them.

    With the revolutionary splinter group gone, the brotherhood calmed down, and gradually grew more isolationistic again. As time wore on, the western brotherhood took less and less of an active role in the development of California.

    With the democratic New California Republic growing stronger every day, the brotherhood began to feel once more that it did not need to take part in wasteland affairs, but could let them develop on their own.

    Take from Fallout Tactic files and Jan Domanik ( BOS guide

    Perhaps it the remainnig of the convoy that land in DC...
  16. DOF_power

    DOF_power First time out of the vault

    Oct 29, 2008

    Oh brother, you guys just can't give it a rest despite the fact that every Fallout game apart from Fallout 1 went outside Fallout 1 lore and canon.

    If you can have Mafia families, Monthy Python, TARDIS, stupid aliens, alien blasters that you can buy, computer with AI, cyborg dogs, ridiculous amounts of noodles, cities like New Reno, NCR, Vault City in Fallout 2 why can't you have a goody yet racist/ignorant/xenophobic/trigger happy twards non-humans west coast BoS faction in Fallout 3 ?!
  17. kxre

    kxre First time out of the vault

    Oct 28, 2008
  18. rcorporon

    rcorporon So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Jan 31, 2008
    The difference is that most of the things you mentioned in FO2 that were silly were either:

    a) random encounters


    b) easter eggs

    In FO3 the nonsense like mini-nuke, Rock It launcher, MIRV, shitty BOS are all regular, part of the game things.
  19. the lone deathclaw

    the lone deathclaw First time out of the vault

    Nov 2, 2008
    Um VaultNone I know this is late i just saw the thread today but you saying the NCR does not fit in the fallout setting I'd argue it completely does it's the ultimate dark joke. They are doing the same path that had been tried before, encorporating all into it and eventually they would follow the path to destroy outsiders openly they were already a major force they took the same logical path as the previous government had before the war. It's a cyclical loop everytime humanity is building things up they are creating the seeds of their own destruction, not saying this in terms of the real world but the case seems like this, but that's Fallout. The use of high technology to "save the world" but destroying it through progress and knowledge to make bigger and better weapons. More deadly viruses more deadly armor and guns yet they don't use their high technology to solve their energy crisis, they just make the FEV and power armor.
  20. Gooscar

    Gooscar It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Oct 28, 2008
    My take on the new BOS incarnation:

    The DC BOS is a case example of how distance from civilization will cause variations in interpretations of accepted and dictated behavior. Taking the settings of both Fallout: Tactics and Fallout 3, the theme of the eastern part of post-apocalyptic USA is that it is the new wild west much akin to the 1800's wild west. Law and order is self interpreted, and civilized implementation is rare but distinct, and typically under assault from those that would like to take advantage of the environment.

    In the 1800's the US Army had posts spread out in the western territories, and as was the case in the east, they were not established there to enforce law and order, but to protect American property and interests. If the Army outposts became involved in local law and order is if a soldier had been involved or if conflict was brought to their front door, otherwise according to Army doctorine they would refuse involvement and take no action in the situations.

    However, due to the distance from the civilized east (both in miles and in communication), and the govenor-esque caveat of "your word is law" akin to naval vessel captains of the time, Army post commander had the legal flexibility to be as much or as little involved with the local community in the interest of keeping their post functional and operational. As a whole most post commanders were indifferent and simply maintained a trading post, while some abused their position for self gain securing comforts for themselves and their men. However some commanders took it upon themselves to act as law enforcement and protectors of the land, beyond fending off Native American attacks. Examples are the endorsements of bounties on criminals (which normally would fall under the juristiction of townships) and detactments of soldiers to townships to maintain law and order. The only thing keeping a post commander from violating the UCMJ and Federal law outright was that with established (but limited) communication to the civilized East, word would eventually reach Washington and appropriate action by the US Army would be forthright.

    To return to the Fallout universe, FO3 is the first case of the eastern expansion of the BOS to have actual periodic contact with the West Coast BOS, where as with Fallout: Tactics the BOS faction there lost complete contact with the West Coast BOS. How they got there is specifically up for debate, but entirely unfeasable (Airships aside). Using simple travel means like Oregon bound settlers of the 1800's, coast to coast travel could take up to about a year or slightly less using ground travel, which is more likely than Airship travel. As for contact with the West Coast, considering this expedition was a genuine BOS back endevour, I could see part of mission east involved setting up manned or automated communication relays, so as to avoid the communication blackout the BOS faction from Fallout: Tactics suffered. With communication set, constant reminders as to the mission and purpose of the BOS's directive could be reinforced.

    For the major point of contention, the shift in priorities of the DC BOS. As mentioned above, distance plays a major role in the inherent moral and duty flexability of an isolated detactment of an organization. While they were audiably present in progress checks and reports, the Elders of the BOS were not present or able to watch everything the detactment was doing. Timeline and results were the checkpoints the West Coast BOS's needs. Beyond that, so long as those objectives were being met, Lyons could do whatever the hell he wanted within reason and "good judgement" that reflected upon the values of the BOS.

    We already know that Lyons was an idealist and more progressive than his peers, so with distance as a factor and the ability to call his own shots without the Elders interference, Lyons set himself and the DC BOS up to shift from classic BOS Illuminati mentality to a more Arthurian mentality. This was not an overnight decision as explained by BethSoft, but rather a gradual exposure to a vacant niche in the environment of the Capitol Wasteland, specifically a semblance of established law and order, as opposed to self-interpreted law and order as the Capitol Wasteland was previously accustomed to. The stereotypical "Knights in Shinning Armor" tag is a result of the priority shift, not a catalyst. It remains to be explained, however, just how much of an impact the DC BOS priority shift had on the locals, seeing as Megaton is a longstanding community exsisting before the expedition, and the general social setup of the pocket communities law and order to be self-enforced.

    Devience does result in awareness however, as more than likely conservative soldiers in the DC BOS began to report Lyons' deviant behavoir to the West Coast BOS behind Lyons' back, as while Lyons is honest soldier he would not do anything to bite the hand that feeds him and cause whatever aid the West Coast BOS provided to be witheld. With the wistle blown, it is likely the Elders called Lyons on his bluff, and Lyons confirmed their reports (fears) that he was using the BOS resources to further his agenda for stabilizing the reigon's community than sticking with his primary objectives. This is what led to the "You're still BOS but you're on your own till you get back on track" decision from the Elders, though the "till you get back on track" is more of a hopeful opening for Lyons to stop playing Vault Dweller and come to his senses than a tangible objective.

    So, is this a feasable deviation from previously established BOS doctorine? I would say yes it is. It follows the prior example Fallout: Tactics used to explain its particular devience of distance allowing changes in priorities and method of operations. While the BOS is an organization with strict ideals, it requires close proximity to enforce these values, otherwise they are just guidelines and suggestions, rather than commandments with the wrath of God backing them up. Beyond Fallout 1 and 2, there were templates and designs to alter a faction of the BOS to a far more xenophobic organization than the prior incarnations, but that is simply stereotyping one aspect of the BOS we know. The DC BOS is simply a stereotyping of another aspect of the BOS, being a solid and involved foundation of the future of the Wasteland.

    Hope that all makes sense.