The Queen of England

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Ziggy Stardust, Mar 4, 2019.

  1. MutantScalper

    MutantScalper Dogmeat

    Nov 22, 2009
    Well, I guess some of you might guess that I'm not a fan of the UK royalty. :D I've been in front of the Buckingham palace, in St James's park, looking at that statue with queen Victoria (who seems to be their favorite) and some other shady evil figures.

    To me it's strange, it's as if German's worshipped Hitler or French worshipped Napoleon (who btw has a really nice mauseleum which is kind of a place of worship I guess). Or if Belgians worshipped Leopold 2. I guess because England is still sort of in a power position in the world through it's 'special relationship' with USA, their murderous dictators aren't criticized as openly as those of other nations.
     
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  2. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust Space Alien

    172
    Jul 24, 2018
    Thank you... I needed a friend.
     
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  3. Atomkilla

    Atomkilla Hazel Hegemon oTO Orderite

    Dec 26, 2010
    I wouldn't be too excited if I were you.
    Having Scalper as your friend is entertaining, but is a ticket to a land on non-sequiturs, baseless accusations, anecdotal evidence and all around silliness.
    But he is a good chap most of the time.
     
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  4. TheOtherManInTheRoom

    TheOtherManInTheRoom Watchman

    169
    Mar 28, 2018
    Are you comparing our Monarchs with the most evil man who existed? Yeah.... Cause the Monarchs were responsible for tragedies on the scale of the Holocaust. Even if Britain was responsible for tragedies (and we were) those were not the result of monarch's decisions, and even if they were.... this is not on the same scale as Hitler. As for Napoleon, he is not criticised really, even by us.

    I don't wish to criticise, but the Hitler comparison is quite poor.

    We don't really have a special relationship with the USA (though we wish we did). We lost our position as the greatest power in the world to them post 1945 (and even arguably before.) and we grovel to them all the time. See them forcing us to back down over Suez and refusing to help us over the Falklands. We go along these days with what they want, which is sad but that's the way it is.

    Thus, our apparently murderous dictators are not criticised as they were not as murderous or as dictatorial as other nations's ones.

    I'm not wishing to attack you, we are all friends on this forum, united in a common cause (I hope.)
    I'm just not sure why this is a matter that you feel strongly about. Maybe there is an underlying personal reason why you chose to propose the question, at which I wish we could know it. If there is not, then you must accept that given the monarchy works in our system, and people like it, then it stays. It works on both a practical and emotional level.

    Well, I didn't say it.... but as I say above, we are all friends here, I hope.
     
  5. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust Space Alien

    172
    Jul 24, 2018
    When I say friend, I mean in the context of this discussion and who sides with whom. Plus, I’m very concerned with this issue as an Irish-raised person, who has always held a strong anti-imperialist mentality.
     
  6. TheOtherManInTheRoom

    TheOtherManInTheRoom Watchman

    169
    Mar 28, 2018
    I'm glad, I just wanted to make sure you knew there is nothing personal here.

    That's perfectly respectable. However, your grievances may be with the British state rather than with the Monarchy therefore, and the mistakes that we made 500 to 800 years ago (of which, from a current perspective, there are many.) But you must remember that in many cases, the past is a different country, they do things differently there. Our perspective is not always a good way to analyse past actions given that we naturally recoil from Imperialism, whereas they saw it as a good thing, whether they had monarchies or not (your new friend pointed out Napoleon, who was not a Monarch but very Imperialist, in a way. I would add Mussolini to that list in Africa's case.)

    Given that the UK is no longer imperialistic, it would seem to be futile to blame a monarchical system for imperialism, especially today.

    Would it be right to say that you have a feeling that the Monarchy is bad, and you have not found the killing blow evidence wise -thus your appeal for friends? (there is nothing wrong with this, we all have emotive reasons for believing what we do.)
     
  7. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust Space Alien

    172
    Jul 24, 2018
    The Killing blow isn’t based in facts. It’s based in philosophy. It’s not “oh she’s taking too much money” or “oh she’s destroying democracy” that annoys me. It’s hereditary power. It’s my opinion, one which has come from many years of pondering, that hereditary power is not just, and the idea that one’s life should be considered more important than anyone else’s, just because of their surname, is wrong. And while I’ve been trying to reason it with economics, politics, and logic, the basis for my contempt for the throne is based in my philosophy, and even if those arguments were wrong, (which i don’t believe they are)... even if the Queen was bringing in trillions of dollars, saving democracy, and bringing peace to the world, I would still be disgusted. Disgusted by the fact that 24 million tuned in to Prince William’s wedding, just because of the family he was born into. Disgusted by the fact that the Queen has lavish property paid for by taxpayers. Disgusted by the fact that she has the guts to stand up from her golden throne in parliament, and advocate for decreasing welfare and increasing work hours, stating the UK needs to live within its means, while wearing a crown worth over 1 million euros, paid for by the same government that she doesn’t want forking over its money to the poor. So if you want to convince me to join your side, you need to fight the battle on that ground.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
  8. TheOtherManInTheRoom

    TheOtherManInTheRoom Watchman

    169
    Mar 28, 2018
    Perfect. I'm glad you have defined the battleground here.

    The government writes her speeches to parliament by the way. Just to let you know. It isn't her fault. IF they wanted, they could have her read her own abdication, and she would have to read it, or not and be abolished anyways.

    Perfect. I shall fight the battle on that ground shortly, as you have now helpfully told me the terms (sadly the time zone prevents me from doing so now.)

    To give you a clue....
    This perhaps is the best thing I can argue against ( though I'll elaborate later in the morning on that.)
     
  9. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust Space Alien

    172
    Jul 24, 2018
    Her reading of it is an indication of her agreement to what is being said, whoever wrote it. She could just refuse to read it. Anyway, I know UK timezones, and ud best be asleep by now, luv.
     
  10. stjohn

    stjohn self-proclaimed cool guy

    39
    Oct 15, 2018
    Victoria is generally more prominently featured due to the expansion of the Empire as a result of the industrial revolution under her reign, only recently not being the longest of any monarch in the U.K. and how people feel about her really can range drastically, though I disagree to call her a shady evil figure is completely accurate, if at all.

    And I personally feel getting rid of the monarchy would be too much of a hassle, and would ultimately not change much except the slight tax break and maybe some tourism.
     
  11. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Most nations with monarchies got rid of monarchies. And that for a reason.

    That's all I'll be saying.
     
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  12. MutantScalper

    MutantScalper Dogmeat

    Nov 22, 2009
    Yes, if you want 'scientific truth' and super analytical objective data, you should go to this one guy from Serbia who drinks a lot and can't even handle his alcohol and falls over and bashes his head a lot.

    What do you, Atomkilla, think about the UK monarchy, it's history, present state and future? Do you think it is a relic of the past, inextricably tied to the deeds of the British empire or is it just a funny little amusement park -thingy for tourists? Is the monarchy wielding power through the political systems such as the House of Lords and through inherited power and wealth in present day UK much more than we even know, or are they just funny and amusing anecdotes from the past? I'd really like to know.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
  13. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Moral arguments are hardly debatable. Basically, you set it as a fundamental and immutable principle that nobody should be more equal than others. Fine, it's a nice sentiment and certainly something most will agree on. However, the Brits decided that having some leftover monarchy works fine for them, and that they don't mind a tiny bit of inequality since it has some form of practical use and, probably most importantly, is a large part of their national identity.
    Basically, both sides are arguing fee-fees here when the cold, hard reality is that I should be crowned Emperor of the known universe.
     
  14. MutantScalper

    MutantScalper Dogmeat

    Nov 22, 2009
    After Brexit, the British, or should I say the English, aren't giving orders in Europe anymore. I don't think the English can give orders even to the Scottish anymore, the Scots still want their independence and a union with EU and the rest of Europe. Same with Ireland and I think even with Wales. With bombs being sent from Ireland to London, seems like the old 'beef' is heating up again.

    England is not in Europe anymore and that's how it should be.

    The English are being all high and morally mighty to the Belgians about Leopold II, from over a hundred years ago, while at the same time committing atrocities in Iraq. RIGHT NOW.
     
  15. Risewild

    Risewild Carbon Dated and Proud
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    England is in Europe...
    Europe =/= from European Union. Not all European countries are in the European Union.
     
  16. TheOtherManInTheRoom

    TheOtherManInTheRoom Watchman

    169
    Mar 28, 2018
    I mean, if you look at changes in Governments, and thus the policies that are being reversed or changed year to year, its impossible for her to agree with everything is being said. Look at the 1978 Queens speech compared to the 1980 one if you want an example. She's outlining two different solutions to the same problem. Thus, she just reads what she is required to read.
    True.

    Ziggy, you stated that even if World Peace could be achieved by Monarchy, and it could save democracy, you would still be disgusted by it. Would you rather us have a violent revolution with thousands or millions dead in the streets just to get rid of it? Would you rather us live under an oppressive, but not hereditary, dictator? (two separate questions, one does not necessarily lead into the other,but it often does to be fair :) )

    It didn't turn out so well for so many of them, no? I do wonder whether it was worth the cost. Though, many European Monarchies were quite behind the times compared to England's. Russia is the obvious example there, including that it lead to something worse by abolishing it.

    The old stuff is certainly heating up again. However, there has been a resurgence in Scotland of Unionist support, with independence referendums being delayed due to a feeling that they would lose again. In Wales, the Party of Wales has only just managed to become the main opposition, and that may drop off. The entire Brexit question is being delayed as the Northern Irish, with allies in England, do not wish to lessen their Britishness. It may lead to no deal. So old stuff is heating up, but it also isn't, in many ways.

    I don't wish to get political unless directly asked on Brexit, it is far too politically charged. It is clear that we are quite different in many ways to the rest of Europe for reasons described above, but we are geographically in Europe. Thus, it will always be an uneasy relationship whether as part of the EU or not.
     
  17. naossano

    naossano So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 19, 2006
    We can lend a guillotine. We still have some at museums.
     
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  18. MutantScalper

    MutantScalper Dogmeat

    Nov 22, 2009
    Well I would see that as more of a political and economical question rather than one of geography. You being a citizen of a Commonwealth country I guess this does in a way concern you too.

    That is the thing that I as a tourist would be interested to see concerning the whole monarchy/royal family etc. thing. :D

    Could you give a really indepth and good answer to as why Czarist Russia was "better" than Soviet Union, especially from the perspective of the average person living in Russia?
     
  19. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Tsarist Russia wasn't exactly better for the average Russian, but probably better for the average non-Russian in neighbouring countries.
     
  20. TheOtherManInTheRoom

    TheOtherManInTheRoom Watchman

    169
    Mar 28, 2018
    I can try, though I'm no expert on Russian history.


    This, but in addition, even in 1905's protests the people marched and cheered the Tsar as the father of the people (yes, he was a bad monarch blah blah) whereas even with all the brainwashing under Stalin, the people must have feared him and his even tighter control over their lives than before. Having some hope that things will get better is a small comfort, but it is one compared to living in a totalitarian state that looked as though it would never end,especially as Soviet Russia removed any religious existence from people's lives, so they couldn't even have any hope in another life. Again, small comforts, but that arguably made it better in Tsarist Russia.

    It's a shame really, they could have had a stable democracy, but the Germans sending Lenin back to Russia may have been the final straw in that. That and there seems to be a desire in Russia for strong leadership, and a willingness for self-sacrifice in order for the country to be seen as powerful.