There is something 'wrong' with the style of Fallout 4

Discussion in 'Fallout 4' started by The Dutch Ghost, Nov 12, 2015.

  1. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Half-way Through My Half-life

    Nov 26, 2007
    And the Pipboy looks like a wrist mounted machine instead of a weird box with buttons on top. :lol:

    **Though of course that's how the manual describes it.
     
  2. Kilgore Trout

    Kilgore Trout Gyro Captain

    304
    Dec 11, 2013
    Is it just my imagination, or did they seriously increase the size of the Pip Boy? The images I've seen make it look like 3 Gameboys duct taped together and welded onto the hapless Player Character's wrist.
     
  3. Monco

    Monco The Duck of Death

    136
    Nov 4, 2015
    Personally, I like most of the stylistic changes Beth made, I especially like the new car designs, the weapons are a lot better than FO3 on the whole, and I like how they beefed up the power armor. My biggest problem as far as the graphics goes is the lighting that makes everything look just a little washed out, but there's already mods to fix that
     
  4. Dr Fallout

    Dr Fallout Centurion

    Aug 17, 2015
    Ehh it's alright, still too much damn fifties.
     
  5. 13pm

    13pm Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    831
    Apr 10, 2007
    That was one of my biggest issues with Bethesdian Fallouts since Fallout 3.

    While some things look just gorgeous (e.g. protectrons, flying bots etc), the majority of objects, clothes and creatures are just generic. Fallouts 1&2 were consistent in style. Bethesda's Fallouts are not.
    And it's not only the visuals. It's also music and supporting elements, such as an in-game UI (e.g. Vault Boy animations). That results in that the whole atmosphere is totally screwed.

    Let's have a look at music. It doesn't have any specific vibe or atmosphere. While Inon Zur has made some real progress with the score for Fallout 4 and there are some great tunes (which, in fact, sound a lot like Morgan's pieces from the originals), most of the music is pretty bland and, well, doesn't have any specific direction. Moreover, some pieces simply feel out of place. You can often hear violins, plucked strings and even some bagpipe-like sounds. At some points I could close my eyes and imagine I'm playing the Witcher instead of Fallout 4, the music sounded appropriate for a medieveal setting, and definitely not Fallout.

    Vault Boy, oh poor Vault Boy. It's a good example of how Bethesda understands the humor in Fallout. The stylish mascot is now terribly animated with eyes-popping-jaw-dropping stuff and sounds. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind Vault Boy to be animated, but it's just done wrong. It's like something cut straight out of Cartoon Network instead of Fallout's 50s-imagined-future. Slapstick-puke-and-fart it is now. That laugh when scoring a critical. That's just completely wrong.

    And the other sounds. What's that cash machine sound when receiving XP? Circus drum roll when hitting a critical or persuading someone? What. The. Hell. How is it even connected with Fallout atmosphere? Is it light-hearted post-apoc in Bethesda's opinion? I guess so.

    And it happens everywhere. While some things are just great, the others are generic or even feel like they are from a different game/lore/universe. And it's not only the general change of art direction (little to none art deco-inspired buldings etc), but the overall inconsitency to it.

    They just don't undertand the lore, that's it. It becomes even more apparent when you look at the creatures. Mutants are just orcs, now with their own orc dogs. Ghouls are now even more zombie-like than before. Legendary creatures (FFS!) drop armor and guns! You kill a "legendary" molerat and you pick up a unique gun from it's corpse. It's okay in Skyrim, Borderlands, but not Fallout.

    Bethesda is just creating fun theme-park-ish post-apoc mods for their fantasy games. That's it. They took some lore elements from the first games, but they don't understand the background for those elements. It's like they are only being able to see the top of an iceberg.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2015
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  6. Mr Fish

    Mr Fish Snug Rubber

    Sep 11, 2010
    They're both symbolical of Bethesda's take on Fallout.
     
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  7. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Half-way Through My Half-life

    Nov 26, 2007
    Symbolical of Bethesda's take of Fallout.
     
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  8. SidFwuff

    SidFwuff First time out of the vault

    17
    Jun 15, 2015
    That's the first I've seen of that. Nice find- it's rather obscure though.

    Regardless, however, Fallout takes inspiration from a lot of Sci-Fi. If you look at the 40s, 50s and even 60s Sci-Fi you don't see anything like Cell Phones. In fact, the inventor of the first mobile/cell phone attributes the inspiration to 1960s Star Trek

    http://hightechhistory.com/2010/12/08/martin-cooper-father-of-the-cellular-phone/

    Besides which, Cell Phones would contradict both Fallout 1 and Fall out 2- the cinematics and loading screens clearly emphasis broadcast systems as still being the norm. In fact, isn't there one which shows a woman operating a manual switchboard still?

    A cellular network- where phones can roam anywhere, and call anyone, wasn't conceivable to most in the 1950s- including Sci-Fi. It's the same reason we don't see the Internet in Fallout either.

    I'd expect to see flying cars in Fallout before Cell Phones. Hell, look at The Jetsons which, like Martin Cooper explains in the article above, has phones tied to either homes or flying cars (which is what Bell expected).

    And yet you consistently post that Bethesda should listen to the old fans. Now you're saying your view doesn't matter?

    Good to know.

    That's a mighty big leap you're making: Paraphrasing a quote, and then concluding that 'nothing was left'

    If you take that (paraphrased) quote literally (as you seem to be doing) then the U.S Government and the Oil Rig shouldn't exist in Fallout 2- let alone San Francisco.
     
  9. Dr Fallout

    Dr Fallout Centurion

    Aug 17, 2015
    By society I think he meant a proper pre war society, remember that the Enclave did not represent the US, no matter how much they would have liked to. They were more of a group of businessmen, politicians and scientists who took control and usurped the proper government, giving the image that they alone are true America.
     
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  10. TheRippaMan

    TheRippaMan First time out of the vault

    62
    Nov 4, 2015
    There has been something wrong with the style of Fallout since 3 came out. It's lighter, not as dark, not as mature. I've been playing through Fallout 2 the last few days. This is a much lighter game as opposed to the original, yet, it retains some very dark and mature elements, some of which are unsettling (when you first arrive at Vault 15).

    Fallout as depicted in Fallout 4 is a circus as opposed to the bleak wasteland in Fallout 1 & 2.
     
  11. Dr Fallout

    Dr Fallout Centurion

    Aug 17, 2015
    As I said, the theme was dismantled for a fun day out in the post-apocalypse.
     
  12. feetlebaum

    feetlebaum First time out of the vault

    2
    Nov 13, 2015
    Man, I really enjoy this theme of opprobrium in Fallout. Elite group of tyrannical, pro-eugenics and power-corrupt people emerging out of ashes and calling themselves the U.S. Government.
    :roll:

    About the style. Maybe it's nit-picky or maybe I haven't sampled enough payphones in the game, but my character has to crouch in order to read the numbers on the dial. i.e. payphones in the game don't look practical the way my character stands at them.
     
  13. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Half-way Through My Half-life

    Nov 26, 2007
    Fallout's setting is not the future 1950's, it is the [pop] 1950's prediction of the future; (and not 100% accurate at that). Them not conceiving of a thing in their 50's does not prevent its discovery ~they have plasma rifles and rail guns in Fallout, nano-tech; animal based biological weaponry; portable fusion power in a can; portable electronic camouflage; cybernetic robots, and grampy-bone. The 50's aesthetic is not supposed to be an indication of stupidity, its an indication of what's popular.


    Dick Tracy had the tech in the 30's ~not that it should matter at all.





    No I don't. I post that Bethesda's target audience was mostly oblivious of the Fallout IP (both before and after), and likely wouldn't recognize anything from the series, or why it shouldn't be there. The only people who would, are those likely to be irritated by it because they know better. Bethesda could have released their FO3 with any name at all, and not used a single name from Fallout, and it would have sold equally well. Their setting could have been TES in the 1950s. They did not need the Fallout IP for what they planned to create.


    How do you know?

    And Why?
    (That makes no sense.)

    No society does not mean zero life, it means no society. Fallout takes place 80 years later; and there are the beginnings of settlements again. Fallout 2 takes place 160 years later, and NCR and Vault City are both shown to have local government, police, and a power-grid.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2015
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  14. SidFwuff

    SidFwuff First time out of the vault

    17
    Jun 15, 2015
    I'm well aware- I've pointed to, several times, Sci-Fi works from the 50s and 60s. The "popular" sci-fi.

    You're moving the goal posts. You argued that Bethesda's interpretation of the setting isn't as technologically as advanced as it was in the original Fallout games. You specifically argued that Bethesda should have included a cellular network and point to a magazine that predicted that everyone would have a full colour telephone the size of a watch by the 1970s as an example that it fit your view of "pop" sci-fi from the 1950s.

    Fallout 1 and 2 both establish, quite clearly, that not only are computer screens and monitors still monochrome, but television as well despite technicolor existing in the 1920s.

    My point is that "retro 50s" that you criticize Bethesda for was already established by the original Fallout team, and a widespread cellular network that you think Bethesda should have implemented is technologically beyond what has been established as existing in 2077.

    I'm well aware of Dick Tracy and his radio.

    You are aware, however, that radios and cellular networks are two very different things right? The computers we use today aren't just smaller versions of what existed in the 1950s without vacuum tubes- the same can be said between having a mini HAM radio on your wrist and a full, nation wide network that is tied into the phone switchboard.

    And your source for this is?

    You posted earlier that Bethesda got Fallout wrong (somehow) by pointing out that "nothing was left" after the Great War. I pointed out that not everyone who survived lived in the Vaults, and societies had already quickly re-established themselves well before Fallout 1 occurred. The Hub, specifically, was virtually untouched by the bombs and established less than 10 years after the bombs fell.

    I'm getting the impression that you're upset that Bethesda's take on Fallout doesn't line up with your take on Fallout- which is fine, except your take doesn't line up with what was established by Interplay either. Having your own view of Fallout is a great thing- but you need to realize that no one will be able to produce anything that'll line up with your personal concept of what Fallout should be.

    You want cellular networks, the internet, full colour and mini computers to exist in the Fallout universe? Cool! Criticizing anyone else that doesn't share that view when the original Fallout clearly established those don't exist? Not so much.

    I haven't seen anything in Fallout 3 or 4 (yet) which contradicts this though. I thought at first he was referring possibly to the societies forming around Boston in Fallout 4, but perhaps he means how people refer to the former Commonwealth of Massachusetts as "The Commonwealth" but that's no different than people in Fallout 1 talking about California, Dave (I think it was) referring to himself as a Canadian in Fallout 2, or even Cassidy talking about Texas.

    It's an area- not a cohesive government, let alone one that survived the war (as far as I've seen anyway. Just finished "Act I" in Fallout 4).

    As for the Enclave... I think they were a little more than just a small group that usurped proper government. The President of the United States was on the oil rig when the bombs fell from what I remember, as well as most government officials.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2015
  15. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Half-way Through My Half-life

    Nov 26, 2007
    What's with the double post?

    Takes inspiration? Fallout was made with Mad Max on loop in the art department, and for that matter it had aspect of Bladerunner, and real-world firearms from our 1980's; as well as Terasques from D&D. They took inspiration from a hell of a lot of related and unrelated sources. Inspiration is not a good measuring stick here; but developer commentary is, and what shipped in the game is.

    You mention [and practically accuse me] of "taking things literally", yet you do this yourself and miss the obvious in Fallout's account of its past golden age, and the collapse. You share a lot in common with a chaffing fellow on Bethsoft; goes by the name of AwesomePossum, and have the strikingly similar habit of either reading whatever you want into another's posts, or genuinely misunderstanding what you read or view...~making assumptions, and then trying to call people out on them. :lol:

    For example:
    • Did I? (I don't think I did; and I do think that you have interpreted what you will.) My post was not arguing for cellphones and ogg players, it was arguing for not prohibiting them. The common misconception [seemingly furthered by Bethesda] is that anything not imagined after 1947 is not even conceivable 200 (or presumably 2000) years later. That's silly.

      *The key point is that anything they can conceive of (be it a cell phone, ogg player, a prosthetic limb; color tv, manned orbital rocket; nuclear submarine, waterproof couch, etc...) will have a thick diesel-punk treatment of their 50's design aesthetic... as though it were a product of 1950s; even if the product was a consumer RC drone kid's toy or a tamagotchi.
    • Do you not see? Think about it. What we see in Fallout is an indication of what turned out to be popular; not what turned out to be possible. If we see a TV, it's going to be a popular or stereotypical model. Also... everything shown of their past must be taken with an understanding that it is stylized to reflect a kind of 'cult of personality' view of their golden age; but that's not where the game takes place; that's not their modern setting.
    • The widespread cellular network that you assume that I think should be: all I suggested was that it's not impossible for them to conceive of it; that doesn't mean that they wouldn't decide not to, or decide to base all of their 'cell phones' on AM radio and ground based antennas; which in their world could doubtless be made to work.
    What's the point? You would gainsay even video evidence offered from yourself in that alternate timeline, were it possible to present it to you.

    And you took that to mean no bacteria, yes?

    I am disappointed that Bethesda's official numbered sequels to Fallout do not line up with anything but their own skewed re-imagining of the IP. It's like a real world Hollywood parody of a movie within a movie; actors portraying actors performing a play. FO3&4 are like interactive Michael Bay movies of the idea of Fallout ~made for those who were often wholly unfamiliar with it, and they have about as much in common with the IP* as the last Hitchhiker's guide film did with the Hitchhiker source material.

    *Except where they clone it verbatim; and here is the fun part. People often copy what they see without understanding why they see it. I've worked on a roofing crew where I saw a worker taught by example, but they had no understanding of why the steps were done; and could not check their own work; and did not create waterproof ~roof when not under close supervision. IMO the Bethesda devs & management are in the same boat (and it's not water-tight). They pulled stuff left & right from Fallout, but seemed to include it merely to prove that they had it too; and they kept some stuff that was meaningless without other stuff they threw out.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2015
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  16. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    I still don't understand why all the computer screens in Fallout 3 and 4 still look like banking computers from the late 1980s. I mean yeah, there was a lot of 50s style thrown in to the earlier game, sure. But I never had the feelings computers and particulary the interfaces have been stuck in the 1980s of computers, at least as far as F1 and F2 goes. It seems the technology was sophisticated enough to me.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2015
  17. SidFwuff

    SidFwuff First time out of the vault

    17
    Jun 15, 2015
    Gizmojunk, I'm going to reply to Crni first, as I believe it's relevant to the discussion:

    Because that's how it was in the originals. I'm pretty sure they copied the terminals for Fallout 3- though I can't remember where the white terminal was depicted. However, a few examples I do remember are below. Both of the originals clearly display video in black and white and computer monitors in Apple II monochrome:

    - Fallout shows the news announcing the annexation of Canada in black and white, and all the security cameras in Vault 13 are in black and white as well. Here's an example of the assault on Vault 13 if you join the Master (YouTube)
    - One of the loading screens shows a computer in the Vault using monochrome green text. See it here on Vault Wiki
    - Fallout 2's intro shows a Vault-Tec instructional video featuring the Vault Boy leaving the Vault, again, in black and white through a projector (no less). It's also on Youtube here
    - There's also a video of a computer terminal, using green text- just like in Fallout 3. I thought it was when you leave the vault at the start of the game, but I seem to mistaken on that- it's on the tanker ship in Fallout 2. See here You can also watch the beginning of that video and see computer monitors on the ship itself are in black and green.
    - The Pipboy interface in both games are monochrome black and green
    - The master is 'built' around a monochrome black and green monitor

    Not sure, thanks for the heads up- fixed now. It had me log in again when posting, and I think it reposted when I browsed backwards later on.

    Fallout was originally a spiritual sequel to Wasteland- itself a staple of 1980s sci-fi. While I played the game a long while ago, I'll admit I didn't finish it (someday). In any case, it didn't include the alternative history that Fallout has- that's probably what some of the 80s comes from, besides the Mad Max nod.

    As I linked above, the original Fallouts were already very 50s. It's not just the computers- the GECK was originally in Fallout 1's manual from what I remember and depicted pre-war homes... 1950s with several homes with the cliche white picket fences complete with fusion cars. The rusted cars depicted in Fallout 1 and 2 (And the Highwayman) are 1950s in style.

    Also, the original Fallout lacked modern weapons. Fallout 2 included a couple, yes, but I recall it being frowned upon back in the day- Fallout Tactics was heavily criticized by the inclusion of modern weapons (either on here or Vault13.net, I can't remember). It wasn't 1950s enough :wink:

    I don't know who you're referring to, but I don't work for Bethesda.

    In any case, you haven't exactly explained yourself well. You stated that Bethesda is too retro, and pointed out Tim Cain would have done things differently with the super mutants. You then expanded on this by quoting him loosely that no societies would be left, and then pointed out that the only things in Fallout from the 1950s are relics. This somehow explains how Bethesda went overboard with the 1950s.

    I don't follow the line of thought, honestly. You seem to be arguing that because Tim Cain would have done something different with the super mutants, he'd have done everything differently. That's a leap. You also seem to be taking the "no society left" too literally- as in evidence of pre-war society has completely disappeared, which explains the retro in the original Fallout games.

    As you haven't explained the links between your points, I have no option but to try and put them together. If I have the above wrong, please feel free to correct me.


    Thank you- that makes sense.

    Colour televisions became mainstream in the early '50s, and were available before then. Yet, all video in Fallout 1 and 2 were depicted in black and white. That's a conscious decision by the original creators.

    Likewise, all computers are extremely large and bulky. The computer consoles, ZAX, PipBoy etc. The explanation is that the transistor didn't exist until a decade before the Great War. Showing technological advancements that you've used as examples would be contradictory to what has been established in Fallout 1 and 2.

    Finally, Bethesda has shown new futuristic advancements in other areas. Most obviously is the synths (the closest we had in the originals was putting brains into jars like Skynet). They have androids established pre-war and now there's synths in Fallout 4 (I don't know yet if they existed pre-war or afterwards). They also depicted virtual reality in Fallout 3, and the Fat Man weapon is yet another- the smallest nuke weapon ever developed was the Davy Crockett, which is as small as we could get it.

    I played through Fallout 3 on release and haven't touched it since, so I can't think of any others off the top of my head, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are.

    Well you stated as fact that the IP recognition of Fallout (A critically acclaimed series) did not boost the sales of Fallout 3. I find that doubtful- do you have any evidence otherwise?

    Bethesda spent a lot of money for the IP, and even fought with Interplay over it after the purchase. That cost them a lot of money and effort- if IP brand recognition didn't bring it more revenue, why did they bother?

    No, I pointed out the Enclave, Boneyard and the Hub.

    I agree- including Harold, Jet, Deathclaws, and Dogmeat's descendant were thrown in without any explanation while the Super Mutants, Enclave and Brotherhood of Steel were simply shoehorned in with weak explanations.

    They also wanted to set the game similar to Fallout 1, but had to set it after Fallout 2 to keep the above items- leading to a jarring timeline when you compare the Capital Wasteland with the advancement the NCR managed. It's pretty clear they were trying to make the game recognizable for people that had heard of Fallout before, and also include things new players would find familiar if they looked into the past games.

    While it tests my suspension of belief, I think they got the 'feel' down. If you talk to new fans that started with Fallout 3, they usually prefer it to New Vegas for many of the same reasons fans that started with Fallout 1 prefer it to Fallout 2.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2015
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  18. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    *shrugs* No clue, just from playing the game I can't remember it ever showing every computer screen in deatail really, hard to really see anything in the game anyway since it doesn't really works like Fallout 3 and 4 in a 3D engine.

    However, I just can't imagine that with super AIs like Zax or SKYNET that people would have been still doing everything on those shitty monitors like in Fallout 3 and 4 where you can hardly see something and work with. How are you supposed to do some complex work or even math and calculations on that thing? Like I said, I don't think there is any reason to believe that they didn't had something that was more sophisticated. Particularly when you want to do science stuff. And even if the game shows you hints here and there, there is no reason to think that EVERY computer in the world has to look and work like that.

    Don't get me wrong! I am not dismissing that idea, I am just saying that not every damn computer has to work like that. A bit of variation here, would sure not hurt. At least even the images you provided have shown that much. But Fallout 1 and 2 have been simple enough with their visuals to leave the rest to the imagination of the player. To imagine that the overseer and any scientists in the vault would have eventually more sophisticated equipment, while the simple vault resident had just a simple computer with a normal screen.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2015
  19. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Half-way Through My Half-life

    Nov 26, 2007
    Does no one recall that the very dialog interface was a color monitor?

    @SidFwuff About your post.... You must realize that you are recounting these 3rd hand details to people that have been here for years, with some that spilled over from the BlackIsle Forums. So you are telling this stuff to people that know it, and know it like it was tattooed on the inside of their eyelids with glowing ink.

    Fallout had miniguns.

    (Also Desert Eagle hand guns; also micro-fusion powered ripper knives; and power-fist gauntlets; and plasma casters/pistols/and laser weapons. It also had the Hero Blaster from Blade Runner; implemented as a .233 rifle modified for use as a pistol.)
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2015
  20. Dr Fallout

    Dr Fallout Centurion

    Aug 17, 2015
    I do.