UBI - Universal Basic Income

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Crni Vuk, Mar 21, 2020.

  1. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    They are not worth to be payed a decent wage because they require no skills and are easy and quick to learn. The potential employee pool is extremely large because of that, because everyone can do it. They also pay little because the profit margin is slim, as usually these jobs involve products in the lower price range. Increasing the wages means increasing the prices, making the point of cheap fast food restaurants for example moot. Supply and demand. Pay the people more, and prices go up. This increases general cost of living, and that nice higher wage is worth the same in buying power as before.
     
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  2. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Half-way Through My Half-life

    Nov 26, 2007
    No slight intended, but this should be self evident; (I know that's often used as a cop-out, but this feels like explaining the use of a tooth pick).
     
  3. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Maybe specify that the "entry level job" you're talking about are high-school-level entry-level jobs that require no skills and no experience. Technically, I'm in an entry-level job, too, because it's designed for a graduate. I'm literally not supposed to stay in this job forever, but rather do a PhD in my free time and move on after a few years. But of course, it's a job designed for a graduate, so the wage is accordingly. And after I finish here I'll be having several years of experience and lots of industry contacts.

    /edit:
    Thing is that the last recession caused a lot of entry-level jobs for graduates to disappear, increasing competition for the high school entry-level jobs.
     
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  4. Gonzalez

    Gonzalez Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2004
    And what of people who can't afford college? Or that aren't as skilled as the next guy who takes the next best paying job? Too bad for them? They are literally disposable to the market, and they are human beings we are talking about. At least with an UBI they take a place in society as basic consumers, helping the cash flow and keeping the economy from stagnating. If you are looking to get that mansion you are dreaming of you are going to need people who buy what you are so well trained to sell.
     
  5. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    I'm not saying that this is good or anything, just how it is right now.
    In case you didn't notice, I haven't been against UBI here. Just against claiming that it's totally affordable and easy to pull off. The benefits are clear to see, but people are a bit naive about how it can be made to work. I don't like going into it with just "Hey, we can't know until we tried it :)", because we can already see that it's not all that easy. We don't need to try it to find that out, because part of making major policy decisions is, usually, thinking about stuff beforehand. UBI is great, but be prepared to spend a significant part of your budget on it. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be done, just that this needs to be considered.
    Why am I even trying to argue this? It's not like you chucklefucks aren't gonna read whatever you want to read into this.
     
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  6. Gonzalez

    Gonzalez Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2004
    I certainly did not mentioned you by name in my comment either Hass, so don't read more from it than you should either. And no one has accused you of anything either, or blamed you for the current situation you are describing.
     
  7. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Half-way Through My Half-life

    Nov 26, 2007
     
  8. Gonzalez

    Gonzalez Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2004
    Actually it's more of someone in a boat giving a hand to someone who is drowning. You do understand UBI is for those left outside the system, people with high paying jobs and business owners wouldn't be getting it. But I guess income redistribution is too unthinkable of a concept for some to even begin to grasp. Also that UBI would get recircuited instantly, people who would need such a thing would hardly be in a condition to save any of it in their bank account.
     
  9. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Half-way Through My Half-life

    Nov 26, 2007
    I looked for the clip where the Baron lengthened the rope they were descending by cutting some of it from the top, to tie to the bottom; it would have been more apropos, but I couldn't find it.

    In essence (as I understand it), the UBI would be an indefinite gift, paid every month. I live in a place that already has this; it's food stamps... ostensibly it's just for food. In practice they are bartered and sold regardless. Recipients here use it to save their cash for buying drugs & alcohol instead of wasting it on food (they could get for free).

    Foodstamps is a good thing for families in DIRE & TEMPORARY need; until it becomes the only conceivable way to live... as it has here for too many to count. Their children are raised on it (they know nothing else... it's seen as stupid to refuse it), and they immediately apply for it when they are told to.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2020
  10. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Except that we're talking about peoples jobs here and not about why or how someone should flush the toilet. 8-hour-full-time jobs should at the bare minimum provide you with a decent living. I think there is a we bit more gravity to that. Particularly when we consider how many people, particularly teenagers in the US experience an existential crisis and immense pressure. Which isn't made better by the fact that many positions which have been normal jobs in the past are now seen as not "good enough".
    I know and I am not attacking you here. And I think we both agree at the very least that ordinary jobs should give you a decent wage where you can comfortably exist with. No one here is asking for luxuries by the way just to make that clear. But you shouldn't be forced to ask your self how to keep your fridge filled at the end of the month either and constantly forced in to pressure.

    What really makes angry is how many jobs and activities have been devalued over the last 30 years. Many tasks which have been in the past decent jobs where you could easily provide for a family have become "low-wage" jobs. At least here in Germany I can not say if that was true with every profession in the US. But being a postman, vendor, ticket collector, janitor or working in production have been good positions with a decent pay. I know a lot of people that held those positions till they received their pensions. And now all of sudden those jobs are low-wage jobs? They are looked down up on. Hell even teachers have a lot of trouble to meet ends, a job that requires god knows how many years of education and comes with a lot of responsibility.

    And then someone tells me (no offense Giz), yeah those jobs (some of them at least) are just "teenager-jobs" and "entry" jobs. I am sorry but that's in my opinion either ignorance or arrogance speaking. Even if I would accept that definition this would completely ignore the fact that the majority of the work force out there, simply can not take up a job in academia or engineering. That's at least my opinion. Maybe I am wrong here. But studying at a university for example never was meant to be for everyone in the first place. There is a reason why it is called higher education.


    To me it is absolutely no surprise today that depressions and other issues are at an all time high ... it's simply a side effect of this whole shit show where pressure and anxiety are at it's core and competition rather than cooperation is promoted at almost every level. I say that is not going to end well if it continues like that.



    Also, did you know the idiom 'Pull yourself up by your bootstraps' might have actually be meant to ridicule something/someone?

    “Pull yourself up by your bootstraps.” It’s a common phrase in American political discourse, particularly present in conservative rhetoric about self-reliance.

    The concept is simple: To pull yourself up by your bootstraps means to succeed or elevate yourself without any outside help.

    But when you examine this expression and its current meaning, it doesn’t seem to make much sense.

    To pull yourself up by your bootstraps is actually physically impossible. In fact, the original meaning of the phrase was more along the lines of “to try to do something completely absurd.”
    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/pull...ootstraps-nonsense_n_5b1ed024e4b0bbb7a0e037d4

    *Edit

    Also do you not see the irony of taking the Baron of Munchhausen, someone who practically works miracles, as example? He also used to ride on a flying cannonball.

    Then I have to say you do not understand its intention.

    Food stamps/social well fare are given out so that people don't starve to death.

    UBI (at its core) aims at giving everyone access to a normal live seperated from the need to do wagework.


    There are at least 2 fundamental principles behind it. The first is the idea that every human being has a right to a live in dignity simply because they are human beings - that's why every UBI is uncoditional.
    The Second princple is the intention to strengthen workers as with the UBI they are not coerced into accepting every job regardless of the conditions because they are either pressured or forced in to it. In other words, the liberty of actually choosing what you want to work.

    Now you can either agree or disagree with this, but UBI is not meant to be just simple well fare.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2020
  11. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    In fact, the UBI would need to be spend almost entirely, since the UBI would cost the entire current revenue in the US budget. Yes, it recirculates via VAT, but there's still no other budget left. No healthcare, no infrastructure, no military, nothing. People like Widerquist will tell you that merely increasing spending by 3% of the GDP would be enough to cover for the UBI, but conveniently leave out that this is for JUST the UBI. To pay for the rest it's more like 11% increase. The budget of the US would have to be increased from like 16% to to 30%, which basically means that the tax revenue has to be almost doubled. Just saying that the money recirculates doesn't change that, the federal budget needs to increase massively. It is not a matter of just saying "Ok, we increase spending a little bit and then it'll work, the increased wealth of the population will bring that money back in". The increase in spending is far more severe, and while I think it's necessary to implement it at some point, I have not yet been convinced by any plans.
     
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  12. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Well if it makes you happier you could always implement an UBI that you get only, if you have no job and where every job has to pay you at the very least as much like the UBI or slightly more.

    I could settle with that "compromise" as well if you so will.

    *Edit

    The important part should be that there are no requirements coming with it. In Germany this could be even pretty easily achieved since it would not be that different to the system we already have, except that you remove the requirements and increase the amounts of money you get.
     
  13. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    That's increased minimum wage and basically an increased social security.
    It wouldn't make me happier, but it's definitely a more achievable option.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 2
  14. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Half-way Through My Half-life

    Nov 26, 2007
    Any job must ---MUST--- be worth paying for. Jobs don't exist for people to live; they exist for employers to achieve their goals. This includes the self employed. Even a craftsman in love with their work has to accept when their work won't feed them, and pay their bills. They will do profitable work, and their passion becomes their hobby.


    In this case bootstraps are not part of the example. The Baron is lifting himself up with nothing underfoot, and notice that he says, 'Hurry up, I cannot keep this up forever!". The rope example was my first choice; he cuts his lifeline to extend it... equally impossible. Both of these might at first seem plausible until a moment's thought is put into it, and the true circumstance understood.

    The UBI is either spending money that doesn't exist, or is spending money that is not deserved. Sure... citizens can get disaster relief... even personal disasters like bankruptcy and unemployment, but if you train people that they should get paid for living... you produce a society of parasites; there is no other word for it.

    In the US, Social Security requires that you have paid into it.

    Value has to come from somewhere.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2020
  15. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Spoken like a true capitalist.

    Right now we can truly see in this crisis how all the "employers" keep the society running.

    No wait. They don't. It's the employees.

    Yeah and slaves should simply accept being slaves too. It often is the difference between live and starving to death, if we take it to the extreme. Any slave must ---MUST--- be worth paying for. Slaves don't exist to live; they exist for employers to achieve their goals.

    Do you believe people will just sit idle and "die" in peace and quiet if the jobs they do can't feed them? By the way we're talking about jobs that are absolutely necessary that you can enjoy your life as well.

    It's the same principle he achieves something that's physically impossible. I know it's just a metaphor. But we're not living child stories and fantasy worlds. In real live if you treat people like garbage and tell them their job is nothing worth, they go crazy. Most of them get depressed. Some even take a gun and start blasting others away. Have you never asked your self where there is such an incredible rise in opioid abuse and crazy shooters? Not all of them have been born with mental instability.
     
  16. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Half-way Through My Half-life

    Nov 26, 2007
    How is this not an incentive to ensure the you have no job?
     
  17. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    That's the whole point of it.
     
  18. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Half-way Through My Half-life

    Nov 26, 2007
    No, it's simply the truth. A job exists because someone needs something done. No jobs exist for sake of employing; unless there is deception at work... or mum needs a break from the kids.


    The example is an illusory act, for appearance sake. It's impossible in real life. Giving away money to allow everyone to spend money too will cause resentment from everyone who actually works to produce their living---read this both ways.

    I certainly hope not. I asked you why this solution would not incentivise leaving the workforce. You have suggested equal pay for working or for not working. Working costs the worker (in time & energy), not working costs nothing. Why would anyone work for equal the pay they would get for not working?

    !! And why should they be paid for not working?

    *You know that the mindset to pay people for nothing only exists in persons who get the money for free.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2020
  19. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    “Understanding is a three-edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth.” J. Michael Straczinski.

    Your truth and what it can lead to, can be seen in the history books about the 18th century which lead to some of the bloodiest revolutions you can imagine. Treat parts of your population like shit and they will at some point tear down society. Why do you think peasants and workers started uprisings in history? Because it was a fun past time? I guess all those workers which caused the Weavers' Uprising of 1844 have been simply entitled in their demands to receive wages where someone could actually exist from because they received so small wages they started to starve to death. This is how swing riots happen if you constantly lower the standard of living and the wages up to the point where the people can actually not support them self anymore, they might start riots and revolts.

    Besides you as a business owner also need people that can actually pay for your service. If less and less people have actually the money to do it then you will go out of business as well at some point. Even giants like Henry Ford and Bosch understood why it was necessary to pay workers a decent wage. Not because of some idea of altruism. Definitively not with Ford. But for one simple reason. If the workers can not buy what they need to survive they might one day come up with the idea to eat the rich. And that is how millions of people can end up in gulags and how totalitarian systems happen.

    Even more reason to pay people a fair wage so that they can continue to do the things that have to be "done". Look what would you rather want? A motivated nurse that's healthy and relaxed to treat you, or an under paid, overworked and stressed out nurse administering you a drug?

    The point is that there needs to be a floor to stand on. If that floor is not high enough you get all sorts of issues which also hit you. People do not work and exist in a vacuum. We exist in societies. We depend on each other and each others well being. That doesn't mean to elevate everyone to the status of millionaires but it also means that we should maybe provide people with a decent income for their work. Not because we are so fucking generous. But because history teachers us what happens when societies erode away.

    That is the idea that people would not follow a profession if there was no monetary incentive or existential need.

    Let us be real, why are you doing your job? And would you continue to work in your profession if you had no existential need for doing it? We are humans. We are not born to sit with our thumbs up our ass doing nothing till we die. We are creative. We are inventive. We are curious. That's part of our DNA. So no, the majority would not just suddenly stop "working" and following certain careers and professions. You will still have people that love to cook, you will still have people that love to serve, to take care about people, to teach and others will still love to build things or to create machinery, to make designs, movies, writing books, raising crops and life stock you name it. Youtube is full of creative people that offer something, without getting money for it. And I've meet so many people that actually enjoyed their work and hell my mother really loved her job as scrubwoman which she has done for almost 40 years.

    But what we are not made for, is to be exploited. Exploited by people that believe it is "ok" to not pay someone a living wage.

    Like I said, that is the idea behind the UBI, look it up if you don't believe it. You do not have to agree with it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2020
  20. Gonzalez

    Gonzalez Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2004
    Yes, some people will have to start to pay more taxes, and yes, if I were them I would totally be against it too. I mean, if I make 10 million why would I have to give a WHOLE MILLION in taxes? Totally unfair, right? And that's the kind of thinking that takes a lot of these people to put their money in foreign tax havens. Also, I'm not an expert on the actual situation of US finances, but then again we don't all live in the US.