Wasteland 2 physically distributed by Deep Silver, screens

I like the UI. It is supposed to look like 80's tech cobbled together and I think it achieves that quite well. This seems to have gone completely over the head of most of people who are complaining. People who just don't get or like the Wasteland style.

It is a mock-up and does needs some polishing. At the very least I think the AP counter could be improved.

 

AnotherZaphod:
Okay, the same goes for Fallout's UI. It was supposed to look like military-grade tech inspired by 50's and still it looks pretty coherent and fitting together.

Oh well, we'll see. Perhaps it's really just a rough WIP/mock-up, but right now I'm prepared to call them a Rainbow Rangers!

 

The GUI is pretty fugly but aside from the brown untextured part, it could in part be due to the image being a jpg. Use pngs dammit!

 

Tagaziel

False impressions you say? I'll try to explain my point of view more detailed. But start of this explanations we take more deeper that actions of present days. Fisrtly, i look at all first campaigns on Kickstarter and i know officialy version. I want talk with you about "avoiding fired people".

I hope, you know that in game development all personal have a many specializations. This specialists have a "time of life in game project", other words each specialist have a different range of work and different lenght of this work. Musician write music and his task is over. Concept-artist made concepts on the early stage of development, and scenarist work too - on begining project. Each CEO hire people for different tasks, but no one guy can't hire (for example) musician on all time of game project. Because if lenght of you project two years, and musician make music in 5 months - what he do other 1.5 years? Nothing. If you CEO you must pay for this guy 1.5 year just for fan. This is a realistic situation? No. This guys contract warriors, other words this guy work on contract. You cannot fired this guy because this guy initially work limited time on the project.

You can try to convince me that Brian Fargo hire this people and they sit and do nothing, and it is therefore needed a second game, BUT... i can't believe you, and cannot believe in this version. This is - officialy version. For press, and for public. But... i hope you do not want to say me that you believe in all official versions of anything which you heard around?

Off course not. It's been evil nonsense if any firm make a game projects only on crowd-principle. My post cannot devalued because i'm say from position of knowledge. You, and i, and somebody cannot devalue knowledge. Because in any time 2 + 2 = 4. You can don't like me, or other people with similiar point of view, but 2 + 2 still = 4. I'm not try to be polite, i can't search love from each other. I don't need that. All i need - live in world where i can voice my point of view. And I do it. This is not attack in full sence of attack. This is my position and my view.

I don't like when somebody somewhere do post-apocaliptic game like a trash. If this game made by you - i'm be quiet. But this is a Brian Fargo, this is a many skilled guys, this is a huge promo campaign, and more-more-more other things. After all of this piar - i can't see on this poor images and be silent. This is a work of dream-team, yea?. If this true - i want see prove of this. This is no prove. This is a prove unprofessianal work (in part of design, art).

This quality of art can be produced by children and interns. Are you seriously trying to convince me that all these people - interns? No. All these people - professionals. In this connection, I do not understand the reason why the team have no professionals in terms of design and art. And if they are - even more so - their work is disgusting.

I see the horrible interface. I see the terrible graphics. Game have no style. All things looks like a things from different games. And when i speak about it, i'm apparently, made attack on inXile? Am I supposed to love mediocrity? Gotta love the something poor? Or should I shut up and go back where i came from? Do not hope on this.

If you want to know about style - look at works of Adam Adamowicz (rest in peace incredible art warrior, we always remember you and your works). This is a style. This is a work. This is a incredible volume of things and concepts. This is just picture what we look at the Net. You can imagine how many things lie on art shelters Bethesda?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Adamowicz
http://www.flickr.com/photos/47857688@N08/sets/72157629321466509/

What do inXile? In comparison with the? One, and very big - nothing. I'm not fan of campaigns. I'm a fan of creative people, i'm a fan of deeds of this people. Where inXile deeds? Where real work on style? Nowhere. You think than i'm start attack on inXile? No. I'm not start the attack. I'm scream look at Wasteland 2 style. Another style of another one good post-apocalyptic universe died in unprofessional hands. What is i want to say. This is not attack. This is a statement of fact.

I have answer on this "why?". But this is not polite and unofficial version. Especially In world where people live and walk in pink goggles. And i have no reasons to show this. Becase i love people who love - think. If you try think you find a real pictures of the past, present and future day. If you cannot this - listen TV, press, and grands people.

About official and unofficial versions. I hope you know some pages from the History of Second World War. Old warriors, veterans very rarely talk about what really was this war. Now, in our day - tell almost no one. Because many of this great soldiers is died. In official archives you cannot find a real historical documents. But in peoples memory live memories of grandparents and great-grandparents.

In 1949 year (anniversary, he was 70 years old.) Joseph Stalin make the little gift for himself. Clear the story and clear the streets. What that mean? After war many soldiers come back from war with extremly and terrible injuries. People returning from the war with no arms, no legs, and sometimes without arms and legs at the same time. It was creepy. They lost homes, families, they did not have a job - they are begging on the streets. But then they started to fade. One by one. It is not known where. After a year on the streets of Moscow and other cities was impossible to see a lot of legless, armless - they be gone. Young boys 18-20 years old, mangled and mutilated. What's the official version ot this?

Died from wounds. Like in fable, "they live happy, long and die in one day". But this people just a lost. Clear the story and clear the streets. This is a order. From Stalin. People were transported to the camp, someone was shot. In general, cleaned the hell out of sight.

Is it possible to read in the textbooks? In the news? Shooting a movie about it? No. If you say something like that - half of the people will say you that you're an idiot. But the question remains. Where did they disappear? After talking with the veterans - we can understand where and how.
The government does not say anything now, and nothing say in the past. Veterans been "cleaned" in the central cities for the most part. Therefore, no one believes that it was. On the periphery - they survived.

Who i am after this version of World History? Liar? Minion leftist? Government-hater? Or maybe just a man who sometimes thinks? You can make self answer. I'll never believe in all that i heard. Never.

If you think about reasons to start second Torment game campaign you can think some of this:
- First part of cash is out (Wasteland 2 funds) but game is not complete yet. Need a second wave of funds for completing.
- Wasteland 2 is not complete yet. Leading of company understand that if Wasteland 2 be failed inXile never recieve new funds until not prove that they can made good games. Without funds - it's a hard task. Solution? Start a second campaign.

I'm sure that you are not believe me. Try to analize. Look at another Kickstarter projects. Let's see:

Dead State: The Zombie Survival RPG
Kickstarter page:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/70755535/dead-state-the-zombie-survival-rpg
Budget $332,635

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Divinity: Original Sin
Kickstarter page:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/larianstudios/divinity-original-sin?ref=live
Budget $944,282

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Shadowrun Returns
Kickstarter page:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1613260297/shadowrun-returns
Budget $1,836,447

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Wasteland 2
Kickstarter page:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/wasteland-2
Budget $2,933,252

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Game with the biggest budget does not look very stylish. Strange, right? If we cut from screens vegetation (grass sprites) what you will see? Couple objects without style. On previous screens you can find this art style. This is especially noticeable in game Shadowrun Returns. Question of the day - what's wrong with Wasteland 2? Maybe most important things it is texts, dialogues, role-play system and balance? Maybe. Maybe it's incredible game mechanics. But i think that budget has been distributed a very strange.

Why in other games with a lower budget we can see the Style? Does this mean that by making such art style - games (samples look above) is not able to make a good game mechanics, because they spent money on art?

Sorry, but in fact that Larian Studios failed game mechanics - i cant believe. I saw game-play videos of Shadowrun Returns and i like that i saw. Dead State? Him early game-play demos looks better than Wasteland 2 pre-relise version (I hope you will remember that before the release of Wasteland 2 remaining two months). Who looks more cool W2 or Dead State? And if you compare the budgets what you will see? $332,635 and $2,933,252!

Wasteland 2 have budget almost in ten (10) times as large than Dead State. Wasteland 2 made on the Unity3D - best choice and huge base of assets, Dead State using a Torque 3D, more light engine and more hard in work with them.

Deeds always speak better than something else.

 

I can only assume that you have misread or misinterpreted InXiles reason's due to English not being your first language.

I've been working in software development for almost twenty years across a variety of different companies and your argument does not make any sense to me. It is normal practice that when the development team have finished their current project work, they move onto a new project that has already been specified and designed by someone else. In InXile's case the designers are the writers like Colin McComb, Nathan Long, Chris Avellone etc. If there are no new projects in the pipeline then it is inevitable that there will be redundancies or worse eventually.

InXile wants to have the next project specified and designed so that when the development team are finished their work on Wasteland 2, they can move onto Torment almost immediately. By having Torment ready for production when W2 is finished, it minimises down-time for the development team.

Additionally by running projects in parallel but at different stages of development/production you can keep the same familiar and experienced team together. This minimises the overhead of having to train-up new hires and getting new people settled into their role. It is just good business practice.

 

You don't read what i say. No one CEO do not hire writers on all lenght of project, because in most cases this is contract work which have limited time of work.

How happen that Wasteland 2 with that good business practice, experienced team, with a good budget looks more poorly than games from my samples-list with more lower budgets?

 

Sander

No problem.

My point? Improper allocation of the budget, an unwillingness to do the normal art. As a consequence, ugly game. I have a doubts about competence inXile in case of Art. And all of i say, it's arguments in support of this theory. Release so closer. Time check her.

Second point, you saw too. I don't belive in official version of start second funding campaign. Time check this version too.

 

There are at two separate teams, design team (Colin McComb etc.) and development/production team (programmers, scripters, artists etc). The designers should always be working in advance of the development team. The designers are preparing the next project for when the development team are finished on W2.

If the designers were not preparing ahead of the development team, then when the dev team are finished on W2 they would have nothing to do other than bug-fixes/patching.

So, in order for the development team to move on to Torment when W2 is finished, the designers have to have finished their work on Torment.

What I am talking about is basic project and human resource management. This has nothing to do with art, it is about running a commercial company properly.

Just for final emphasis, running multiple projects in parallel at different stages in the development cycle using different teams is good project and human resources management practice.

 

Rick Lion. I'm totally blown away by your art and technical proves.

But there are few things I think you over looked on your criticism:
1. Divinity Original Sin had been on development for years before kickstarter campaign. It looked like that before their kickstarter campaing even beginned. They asked the money for polishing the game.
2. Shadowrun Returns uses 2D graphics. They use same blocks to build entire levels. I don't know jack about making games. But I know that's way faster than making 3D objects that look good.

I loved reading your arguments at the start of this thread. Maybe you could try to give some tips for them folks at InXile?

 

Sander

No-no-no. I do not like is not art, and its absence as such.

Okey. Fine. In world we have a lot of people. And different people have a different thinks and different point of views about all of happen in this world. And... please dont tell "given us". I'm have a very bad knowledge of english, but even i know that "us"... it's not "you" or "me", or "i". Do not say "we" and "us" for other people. You - this is not a society, and you are unlikely to be able to speak for all.

You are in no way convinced me of the rightness of what was said by you. This is i listen every day. But not every day - that's true.

I'll be glad to meet with you, here, after release W2 and after new publications in net, and after exchange of views between gamers. I'm not afraid to screw it up, or turn out to be wrong. And you?

Jukkahvi

Nope. I hope that nope, because of official site of Laraian date of announce be closer to W2.

Original Sin announced Wednesday - 30 May 2012.
Wasteland 2 - Apr 17 Apr 2012

I make a sample of bus on previos pages in 4.5 hours. This is only one art style used by me. I can make my 3D more casual, more realistic and etc. Term of Style higher than the tools that are used to create it.

For save time and human resources - 3D can be make in one side (to watcher), this is a fake 3D, or can be made fast (with backed material based on lightmap), but in case of 3D you can rotate, scale, diform (other words modify) object. This increase level of details and geomertical volume scene (shape of level).

In case of 2D you paint tile or 2D fragment once (often based on 3D). All you can - overpaint. You have no tools for modify this structures in "space". If you need rotate something - you must repaint structure. Or rerender with post work. Make another image.

Have a different ways to make 2D and 3D. All depend of task from game-designer. If camera is static - one solution. If not (dynamic) - second. If you have a limited zoom - combine. You can economy and use the "hints" And etc.

In most cases 3D more expensive than 2D. But in a global sense. Those maps from the cap threads (about the Second World) were done in a very short amount of time. Draw time it would be a little faster. But not much frankly.

Shadowrun Returns uses a very good paint. Also, I would not be surprised if the for increase drawing speed - they used the 3D primitive shapes. It's normal practice. See example. This scene compile from many-many objects and after this painter make overpaint. On all image you take 48 hours. If you paint this - you be done faster but you cannot fast manipulate with objects on scene.

All objects on scene (exept sculpture) made by primitives. This easy task even for young 3D-designer.

After that you must make shadow map.

After this overpaint


In many cases you never know what you see now - real paint or 3D-overpaint. In this task all depend from skills of designer (painter).


But... 3D give designers more opportunity than in case 2D. First time you lost time on 3D, but after you can made many level and use for this One and the same model. 3D like and 2D can be created in high-quality 3D but and in "budget movie" too, with very limited properties. This is a samples of fast 3D and long 3D (in time of development)

Samples of long-time 3D:
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Samples of low-time 3D
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At first glance, everything seems like the same. But it is not. In the first image above detalization, more well-crafted accents. More good texture and etc.

If you take some pieces from long-time 3D and combine with low-time 3D you can recieve in complex not bad picture. Unity store have a many objects and if this objects can be modify by filters and with hands of painter - they integrate in your scene like a childs to mother home. But modeler (or designer) must know how did that in short time. I think that in inXile people do not worried about it. And not made post-work and adopt graphic.

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This objects be maded in 3 work days...
(i'm wrong, i'm check my story and three days we need change on four ~ (4,3), after this recalculate. But in any case it's be fast.)

...Simple. For increase level of details. And if you have 30 similiar objects - you fast increase level of detail. You can rotate they, diform, change skins, lights on. And this can be change a full feeling from picture. This is a second side of 3D. Good side. On screen you can see 10 objects. If you need 100 objects - you need 30 work days. And after that you recieve a good pack of environment objects. It can be made by one man. If in team work 3 man on 3D-design direction you have 300 objects in one month, 300 it's a good number and scene with that elements be reach. + objects which you buy in Unity store and you level increase more. I'm not seen on W2 screens so many objects.

All you need - be nice in cook. If you remember about style - all you do - be good. And off course always need practice. In all cases. Adopt models from others need skills too.

Nope. I have already advised earlier and already offered my help. As far as I remember I was asked to work just for fan. I can write this for fan for you and others, but i can't do this for developers. In this case it's not advice - it's a work. In case of work i use one rule, rule of Malcolm Reynolds:
- I do the job and then i get paid

 

I agree the artists at InXile leave a lot to be desired..


Rick Lion - which software do you use for your renders?

 

Surf Solar

M-m-m... in this thread most of all screens without render, shaders and etc. This is a real-time models without anything.

But for production renders i'm use typical render of 3D Studio Max. And here i too have a reason. Many designers use shaders and additional renders. Firstly, "i too old for this shit", Secondly - if you make something via standart tools and this be looks good - if you add next gen technologies - picture be only better. But if you made something poor - you cannot saving by tech. In this case you can fool gamer. "gloss" of technolodi can blind - on the first time, but after gamer understand that you fool him... and he would be offended.

Gamers can not cheat. With him you have to be honest. And then he will love you as you love him. And many will forgive you. For your honesty and diligence.

Sander

You know what you are arguing about taste? About them - do not argue. Never. It is useless. So many times you say again - "this is art", and i answer - "no"? I'm finish saying about this first. You can continue to stick to their line. Without me.

I think that be good come here after release. If i understand right this is October 2013? And off course developers fix bugs for October, and off course they cannot change date of release. In any case i'm come back when recieve from developers copy of Wasteland 2 and after playing in game (at least a week of play). Because want have self opinion.

Roger that. Here, I screwed up.

I'm obsessed with discontent. I would say. There is nothing wrong with the evidence of something good. If there is evidence of something bad - it worse.

Hey ... Just do not have a incompleteness (uncompleteness). The game is due out at 2-3h months. You think that on this stage inXile have unfinished models? Last months of development - it's a polishing. Most of the game-play, mechanics, bugs and balance.

 

Sounds like a bit of lose - lose situation. InXile misses potential improvement on art assets. You miss pay.

Chris Avellone talked at Rezzed 2013 how crowdsourcing art assets might be a good way to get noticed. You might not get employed immediately by InXile. But someone else might pick you up. "You're the guy who made them busses look good at Wasteland 2?" "I loved every detail of your props in that game"

Start small. Never grow big. So you can keep growing.

 

Jukkahvi

On stage Kickstarter campaign i make this
http://lionwood-studios.com/special_for_brian_fargo.html

I kept in touch with Brian Fargo period entire company. And it was he, not I asked my permission for placement of these works in the news and on FB page. Because at that time Andre Wallin has not yet started its work. Then I asked Brian about the work. And he sent me to Chris Kenan. To his question, "what you want to do," I replied - "everything". Later, I found out by accident that it is a work on a volunteer basis. That money has already been distributed to members, and as such I can work "for thank you." As i rememeber it sounds like "all fans be glad make contribute on Wasteland on volunteer basis, because it's a... bla-bla-bla".

So I did not have to make a models for store. At this time Brian Fargo not start initiative of Crowdsourcing. It's happen after. From the beginning I was noticed and conducted a dialogue with them.

When Chris say me "volunteer" i say in answer: "You understand that i'm not young fan, and if i work on W2 i lose my current work and if W2 is work i need contract and payments for this. I can't work without payment." Chris say "i understand" and we say together "Bye".

 

I have to jump in here, and to defend Ricks position a bit, because I guess (?) this is actually the point he might mean, not sure I only understand half of his ramblings :p.

What we we have here is not art, even if it might seem like that, but in fact it is design we are talking about here. There is a huge difference.

Well to make it short, art does not need a purpose nor any meaning behind it to be art, it can be just there and just look pretty. As said, just to make it short.

Design on the other side is about communication and usually serves a purpose, good Design at least. To pull this off is very difficult and it requires a lot of knowledge (experience) and skill.

Like how to set up the mood for a scene. To achieve that, you might use shapes, objects and situations people are familiar with. As a good example here, Morrowind is creating a totally different mood and scenery as game compared to Skyrim which is heavily inspired by Nordic symbols and art to create this specific mood with the weapons, armor and NPCs while in some cases Morrowind can look and feel totally alien (on purpos I guess) because it is using very odd stuff like a big bug to travel around the world or the Design of buildings and armor which are inspired by bugs and mushrooms in some cases. And that is design. You try to communicate with the consumer. Things are done with a purpose in mind, the choice in colours like the colour palette, their range and all that. How "pretty! things are drawn, rendered, the effects, etc. are things that come in later. - Adam Adamowicz Skyrim Concepts are a very good example of this!

Art has not always to fulfill that role. Games fall under the Umbrella of Design, at least in my opinion, because they are first and foremost a product so while there is a lot of creativity involved game designers (hint, designers!) are NOT artists just like graphic designers are not artists, I am talking here about the profession. Because it is dangerous to see it as art, because suddenly even "bad" Design can be good, as long its pretty and well rendered or drawn for example. But there is more to it then just that. As everyone will agree, when we are talking about Games that are nothing else but a test for your hardware because they stress it so hard as they require the Best hardware to look "pretty". In other words most FPS games out there. But the games you really remember are usually not for the quality of the graphic, but if it has good and memorable Design behind it.

Though I do not feel in any position to really give a comment about Wasteland 2s quality here as far as design goes, if the content is good design nor not, since I am not that invested in the project, nor do I know at which phase the game is right now, how much is bound to change and how much is really "finished" stuff. I personally feel that a lot of the things we have seen, look "alright". I guess someone with more knowledge could do a more in depth analysis.