What was the Funniest Argument You've had with a Bethesda Apologist?

Discussion in 'General Fallout Discussion' started by FlashBash64, May 13, 2016.

  1. LuciusCorneliusSulla

    LuciusCorneliusSulla First time out of the vault

    28
    Sep 23, 2018
    Arnust you can not actually prove the black moutain path was unintentional. Nor can you prove it was intentional. But it being there makes New Vegas' start objectively nonlinear.
     
  2. naossano

    naossano So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 19, 2006
    New Vegas is the game of the series that litterally have the least linear start.

    Fobos and FoT forces you into the first mission, then remain mostly linear for the rest of the game.

    Fo2, Fo3 and Fo4 forces you into a moderatly lenghty prologue, into a vault or a Temple of Trials, then Fo3 features no choices in the main quests.

    Fo1 start is more open that the examples above, but you still have that clock ticking that force you into at least one decision.

    FoNV, you get cleared by the local doctor and you are free to go anywhere without even having to watch the clock.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 6
  3. LuciusCorneliusSulla

    LuciusCorneliusSulla First time out of the vault

    28
    Sep 23, 2018
    I believe he meant as in exploration. Literally how many paths you can take from the start (the start being after the prologue i.e. after doc mitchell or after escaping the vault).
     
  4. Arnust

    Arnust Maybe you've seen it, maybe, in a dream...

    Feb 2, 2016
    Well, neither can you say it's fully intentional. That's why I'm not claiming it is. Also, a single extra option hardly turns something into the whole opposite.

    You guys are mixing up the intro with the whole openness of the early game.
     
  5. LuciusCorneliusSulla

    LuciusCorneliusSulla First time out of the vault

    28
    Sep 23, 2018
    Except a linear path implies there is only one way to go from point A to point B. The open is nonlinear with the black mountain path as it now has two ways to get to B. There are two other ways (through deathclaws or cazadores) that I'm excluding due to the sheer difficulty of passing them.

    A Mario level is linear. You move right to finish the level or left to back track. As the level is linear you can only go two directions. In New Vegas upon reaching the highway you can go right through primm to get to Novac and then Vegas or left through the Black Moutain Path to get to Vegas. Had the path not existed, Vegas' open would resemble Mario.

    Edit: forgot to finish the analogy. New Vegas' opening has 4 directions you can go with the black moutain path. Without it there are two directions. Forward and back for each.

    You guys might be using a looser definition of linear. In comparison to fo3 maybe it seems linear but the reality is it is not.
     
  6. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Doesn't FO3 have literal physical walls railroading you into the metro tunnels? I mean, at least New Vegtas let's you comeback higher leveled and better equipped and take out the critters, and it offers more experienced sneak oriented players the Great Khans route. In FO3 even a Power Armor wearing, Gauss Rifle using, Almost Perfect perk picking, level 30 player is still gonna get blocked by those walls, and on pointless to explore, that is basically FO3 in an nutshell too.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 6
  7. LuciusCorneliusSulla

    LuciusCorneliusSulla First time out of the vault

    28
    Sep 23, 2018
    His arguments were mainly:
    A) Fo3 is much larger than Vegas
    B) Fo3 has more content than Vegas
    C) Vegas had a linear start

    I don't know about the actual map size but I'm sure Vegas beats 3 in content and the start thing is objectively false.
     
  8. naossano

    naossano So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 19, 2006
    Which is a number above one, more that the other games combined, bar Fo1.
     
  9. Norzan

    Norzan Vault Senior Citizen

    Apr 7, 2017
    Yeah, saying New Vegas has a linear start is just objectively wrong. I have done playthroughs for basically every direction and didn't had much issue doing them.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2018
  10. The Dutch Ghost

    The Dutch Ghost Grouchy old man of NMA Moderator

    Jan 11, 2004
    That is true. I guess the only way I can say FNV is better is because there are many factions that play a role rather than the handful of ones from Fallout 3 and 4. But one can also consider that as filler, hmm.

    BTW now that I think about it, Obsidian really should have included the Super Mutants. The player either convincing Marcus or Tabatha to send a couple to Hoover Dam to assist whatever side the player is joining.
    I know it would have been a bit of a stretch but if the Khans had made it into the end game the Super Mutants could have as well and it would have helped integrate them better into the campaign.

    Okay they are not linear but what this guy was also saying was that a lot of locations in FNV are unnecessary to visit (unless you want to see everything, something that also goes up for Fallout 3 and 4)

    FNV does have a more set path of locations to follow unless the player really wants to make it past the Deathclaws and Cazadores and hoof it directly for New Vegas.

    FO3 is more non linear in how to go to Washington, there not being any barriers or obstacles of any type, allowing a player to explore the place immediately. I can't argue why FNV's approach is better but I guess all three cities (Washington, Las Vegas, Boston) are rather disappointing outside the locations within you really have to visit.

    For me the road to Las Vegas was pretty rewarding on its own as I really liked exploring places like the rocket factory, Helios One. Passing all of that and you loose quite a lot of opening content.

    Making Harold mandatory? No but I do think his appearance is rather wasted in any case.
    He is mostly there because he appeared in Fallout 1 and 2.
     
  11. Arnust

    Arnust Maybe you've seen it, maybe, in a dream...

    Feb 2, 2016
    And that’s what i’m saying, per se they are the exact same, because the technicals are identical, but content is spread differently. In NV, if you stick to the roads you’ll miss perhaps 1% of the game’s content. It just doesn’t do “you can go there, if you can see it” (obviously within reason and suspense of disbelief), and added to some other details, it’s really just not all that successful when it comes to the open world portion of itself.
    Of course, people considering it highly don’t do so unfounded. It is way better than average when it comes to making it a believable setting (see above parenthesis), weaving its narrative and plot to the game world and player agency. And obviously, most everything else more detached from it’s open world setting.
     
  12. The Dutch Ghost

    The Dutch Ghost Grouchy old man of NMA Moderator

    Jan 11, 2004
    I wish I could say in what way FNV does open worlds better than Fallout 3 and 4 but when it comes to it I really can't other than that I find a lot of the optional locations Fallout 3 and 4 a waste of something that could have been used so much better than just be another dungeon.

    That is probably why I also argued in the past for a smaller but more cohesive designed world.
    When there is this much space it needs to be filled up, but the content does not mean much when it is concept wise the same.
     
  13. Big No

    Big No Watch as I open and close this door

    622
    Oct 28, 2014
    I think the invisible walls are located at the map boundary and atop large amounts of rubble within the city. Though I assume the metro's are just there because if the entire city was open with no rubble the game might slow to a crawl loading everything. Freeside and New Vegas did something similar by adding "checkpoints" so it didn't need to load everything, which I must say, I would've preferred in F3 as opposed to using the metros. Or you know, have both because it'd give the player more places to explore while making it easy to get around.
     
  14. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Difference is in New Vegas the gates where smpel checkpoints that you just went through by pressing the action button, in FO3 they were there to railroad you into same looking labyrinths to get anywhere plot relevant.
     
  15. Big No

    Big No Watch as I open and close this door

    622
    Oct 28, 2014
    Well, yeah. I did say I would've preferred it if F3 did the whole "checkpoint" thing rather than just metros or even have both checkpoints and leave the metro's for exploration purposes.
     
  16. Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    929
    Dec 6, 2016
    Reach vegas at level 1:

    Goodsprings -> jean sky diving -> bos bunkers (forget the name). There you pass a hole in a fence and RUN LIKE CRAZY from the scorpions in the scoprion gulch (it's actually really easy, just use a light armor or no armor) and you will find yourself in helios one. From there, follow the roads (near a gas station close to helios one there always a raider ambush, guys with grenade launchers, just be careful and stick to the ants in the open area, they are more easy to avoid)

    Can be done in.......20 minutes more or less.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 3
  17. LuciusCorneliusSulla

    LuciusCorneliusSulla First time out of the vault

    28
    Sep 23, 2018
    Or you can walk up the black mountain path until you see a patrol going up a dirt road. It's trapped with a boulder and bear traps. Trigger those and sneak up the path. Then just hop down the cliff face. You should be close to the NCR ranger stache. From there just walk to new vegas.
     
  18. Risewild

    Risewild Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    You can also swipe Doc Mitchell's stimpacks and antivenom from a shelf. Climb the mountains to the northeast, reach the cazadores, climb down the mountain when the cazadores are the farthest away possible, run like crazy through the mountain path. Usually a cazador will be able to hit you, but using the stimpaks and later (once the cazador decided to give up chasing you), use the antivenom. You are now free to reach Vegas.

    This is even easier if you have the pre-order packs/Courier's Stash that give you free stimpaks and/or super stimpaks.
     
  19. Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    929
    Dec 6, 2016
    This is actually the route that I take it. I did not mention because I blow up the cazadores from above with the mercenary pack grenade launcher, and I do not think the dlcs should be taken into account. But as you said you can run from them, then it's a valid path.

    Ok, so I start NV right now determined to find another way. And I did.

    Goodsprings -> Primm. There you can pass without enter the city. Now instead of follow the road, go to your left, straigh to Nipton. It can be done without combat since you dont need to enter in the desert area with all that ants.

    Then you will reach this spot.



    If you go into that path, you avoid some bark scorpions and soon you are in Ullyses' bighorn ranch. From there, Novac (again, without enter in a combat if you know your ways). Novac to Vegas we all know what to do.

    So, there are already many ways to get to Vegas at level 1? 4? So it's a fallacy from the Bethesdrones to say it can not be done.

    EDIT: Oh yeah, forgot to say. Of course, getting into Vegas via Freeside is not a good idea. You want to go in high style using the monorail.

    If you, like me, find it stupid to running into the door that leads to the monorail like a madman, trying not get shot by the soldiers, go to Contreras and buy an NCR uniform. Now you can pass quietly. ;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2018
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  20. Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    929
    Dec 6, 2016
    Oh my, find another one.

    Goodsprings - > NCRCF -> Emergency Service Ralyard - > Primm Pass* - > Novac.

    * There´s a blind deathclaw there. Just use a stealthboy (there´s one in Goodsprings school) and you good to go. That's if he's there. It was not there now when I walked that path.

    edit: no, you can´t sneak. I reload a save and he was there. I could not pass even with the stealthboy. 2 turbos do the job, but I do not know if you can find two copies of this item at the beginning of the game. I'll check the GECK later.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2018