Why do so many people here think First Person excludes RPG?

[Yazman]

It seems as if many of the people opposed to a first person perspective for Fallout think that a first person perspective excludes a game from being an RPG.

For example, I saw in another topic people debating whether isometric turn based was a design decision or a technical limitation at the time, and somebody made reference to the FPS genre.

A game having a first person perspective does not make the game an FPS, its almost like this concept is inconceivable by many. There are many classic RPGs that were first person games and were RPGs, certainly NOT shooters. Did you never play Ultima Underworld, Lands of Lore, Stonekeep, or Pathways (I would mention Arena but never played it)? A game can be first person without being an FPS..

This is not even to mention games like System Shock which could be described as a great hybrid of the two. Deus Ex epitomises this and it was really an RPG with FPS elements, like a modern version of Ultima Underworld, Lands of Lore, etc.

First Person does not and has never meant that it will be Shooter or an Action game.

 

[Relentless666]

I once read something about First Person and Third person. The theory was, people who play RPGs want to be able to see the character they made, so it's best to have a camera that allows them to view their character inside their world. First person removes the medium (That character) and gets you, the player, directly in the middle of the action. When something jumps on you from the dark, it jumps right in your face, not in the character's.
Another thing, when playing first person, you are unique, you feel different from the rest - it's like the whole game world revolves around you. In a different pespective, you feel like just another guy, one of many and that makes the world a little more complicated and real.

I don't know, things might be different these days, but those explanations still make sence to me.

 

[Trithne]

Make a first-person RPG that properly separates player skill from character skill and I'll agree with you. Until then, FP PoV does prevent RPG.

 

[Slaughter Manslaught]

FPP does not excludes RPG. Hell, Deus Ex is one of my favorite games of all time. But Fallout 3 is a bad RPG AND a bad FPS/RPG hybrid. Can't understand how people prefer those shooter mechanincs in Fallout 3, if combat was as good as Deus Ex, I would understand.

 

[Ravager69]

I prefer iso-turn based, because it gives me a better perspective on the game. If I want my char to open a door on the other side of the map, I simple do it in 1-2 clicks and my char simply runs to the door and opens it. I don't need to walk to them myself and them press use. Also, it makes fighting more than 1 enemies easier and isn't as tiresome as playing in FPP. I'm not playing RPG for the action and don't need to be in the center of it.

 

[nemetoad]

Make a first-person RPG that properly separates player skill from character skill and I'll agree with you. Until then, FP PoV does prevent RPG.

Wouldn't having more ability to use player skill over character skill allow more roleplaying? The more it's based off character skills, the more you're roleplaying a diety of the universe that is pulling the string off its favorite puppet. The more it's based off player skills, you're more of walking in the character's shoes rather. I do agree that there needs to be more balance, but I'd rather have the option to see how well I can aim while playing my character rather then see how well the computer can aim using a random number I put into my character's small gun stat, which acted similar in both Fallout 1/2 and 3.

 

[Sicblades]

If you're basing it on player skill aren't you just "roleplaying" yourself in a different world?

Role playing, to me, is stepping into the shoes of someone else. Vault Dweller, Chosen one, etc. Seeing that in FP highly takes away from the role-playing experience to me.

Just because I'm good at twitch action shooting, doesn't mean that the character is. Just like I could be good at art, but you are good at history. If we role played each other, you wouldn't transpose your skills onto me and vice versa.

 

[Dead Guy]

Make a first-person RPG that properly separates player skill from character skill and I'll agree with you. Until then, FP PoV does prevent RPG.

Wouldn't having more ability to use player skill over character skill allow more roleplaying? The more it's based off character skills, the more you're roleplaying a diety of the universe that is pulling the string off its favorite puppet. The more it's based off player skills, you're more of walking in the character's shoes rather. I do agree that there needs to be more balance, but I'd rather have the option to see how well I can aim while playing my character rather then see how well the computer can aim using a random number I put into my character's small gun stat, which acted similar in both Fallout 1/2 and 3.

Would you have it the same way with the science skill and the repair skill then? See how good you are at repairing engines instead of the character you're playing. Step into his shoes. Don't let the computer do it.
If that's what you want you might as well step into the shoes of Gordon Freeman and see how well you aim (again), shouldn't that mean even better roleplaying? It uses the player's skill even more, so it allows more roleplaying.
Stepping into the shoes of the character in that way is just playing yourself over and over again isn't it?

To me at least, roleplaying is playing at being someone else. Someone who might be able to do things you can't, and suck at things you're good at. Someone who speaks differently, thinks differently and is interested in other things, or driven by other motives. That's what makes pen and paper RPGs fun, not seeing how many monsters you can kill with your enchanted sword.

I understand if people don't find that interesting and I don't play like that all the time... but that's what RPGs is to me.

Cheers

 

[nemetoad]

Would you have it the same way with the science skill and the repair skill then? See how good you are at repairing engines instead of the character you're playing. Step into his shoes. Don't let the computer do it.
If that's what you want you might as well step into the shoes of Gordon Freeman and see how well you aim (again), shouldn't that mean even better roleplaying? It uses the player's skill even more, so it allows more roleplaying.
Stepping into the shoes of the character in that way is just playing yourself over and over again isn't it?

To me at least, roleplaying is playing at being someone else. Someone who might be able to do things you can't, and suck at things you're good at. Someone who speaks differently, thinks differently and is interested in other things, or driven by other motives. That's what makes pen and paper RPGs fun, not seeing how many monsters you can kill with your enchanted sword.

I understand if people don't find that interesting and I don't play like that all the time... but that's what RPGs is to me.

Cheers

To me, Roleplaying is creating your character and developing it throughout a story. At least, in the Fallout games it is. After all, there is no "someone else" provided outside the original past. You're the brain of any character you create, so why shouldn't you be allowed to use your own knowledge if you choose to?

And I'm not saying let everything go based off player skill, just balance it out so that things that you can go "Even a CAVEMAN can do it!" can be done without computer calculation. Depending on how you do something, the computer responds of course. Things like... simple first aid that you should have learned from experience. Things like, knowing how to play whack-a-mole and apply it to that knife and that pigrat. The simpler it is, the more redundant it seems for the computer to do it for you. Does it really make sense that you can't shoot the guy one foot away from you because your small guns stat is too low? What, does your character have no knowledge on what direction to aim the barrel? Does he have no knowledge on how to pull a trigger? Or is it because the computer thinks your character is so stupid that it forgot to turn off the safety?

If the game was truly roleplaying, you'd be the character anyways. Its you playing that character, not the computer playing it for you.

 

[Blakut]

Make a first-person RPG that properly separates player skill from character skill and I'll agree with you. Until then, FP PoV does prevent RPG.

Well, Might and Magic comes to mind here. It was first person, but it was basically an RPG.

 

[Sicblades]

To me, Roleplaying is creating your character and developing it throughout a story. At least, in the Fallout games it is. After all, there is no "someone else" provided outside the original past. You're the brain of any character you create, so why shouldn't you be allowed to use your own knowledge if you choose to?

And I'm not saying let everything go based off player skill, just balance it out so that things that you can go "Even a CAVEMAN can do it!" can be done without computer calculation. Depending on how you do something, the computer responds of course. Things like... simple first aid that you should have learned from experience. Things like, knowing how to play whack-a-mole and apply it to that knife and that pigrat. The simpler it is, the more redundant it seems for the computer to do it for you. Does it really make sense that you can't shoot the guy one foot away from you because your small guns stat is too low? What, does your character have no knowledge on what direction to aim the barrel? Does he have no knowledge on how to pull a trigger? Or is it because the computer thinks your character is so stupid that it forgot to turn off the safety?

If the game was truly roleplaying, you'd be the character anyways. Its you playing that character, not the computer playing it for you.

There should be though, your character's skill is should be what determines how well he does in a game since you're playing the character, not yourself. You make the character yes, but it shouldn't be about your personal traits in real life. Some people can't bandage themselves, it's not all "basic".

 

[nemetoad]

... your character's backstory provides that you know the "basics" weather by trying to survive in a village or learning through Vault-tec brand education. It always felt to me that your skills in-game are more like advanced training. After all, that's how it always seems to be portrayed.

How else would Mr. Chosen one survive long enough to even be chosen? What, he's dumb as a rock at personal first aid yet he's been able to survive at least 18 years or so without getting seriously injured or witness someone taking care of him? Makes complete sense.

And yes, it should go based off your character's skills if you choose to play that way. Personally I find a game more enjoyable if you have more imput then computer calculation I'd rather play the character then have it play itself. That's the criticism I have of completely computer calculated results over personal attempts. Heck, even Fallout 3 allowed the computer to do lock picks and the like for you. How many times did you try to do it that way? I know the minigames they put in were all too easy, but personally I find that more rolePLAYING then letting the computer roleplay for you

 

[Crni Vuk]

I would not either Deus Ex or System Schock 2 give the title of "RPGs". They are awesome games which I love to play still. But a RPG needs a bit more inside then just stats inside. But I guess thats all not so easy to explain since much has to do with preference.

And I have to agree, first person does not exclude the RPG. But as some people here already mentioned it. Fallout 3 is even flat as RPG and both First Person game. Even if you factor out the case that its based on the old Fallout games its still just a "bad" RPG.

 

[Herr Mike]

Lockpicking is too easy, but I don't know if I'd want it to be difficult. Hacking makes you think and I find I don't like that.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

Make a first-person RPG that properly separates player skill from character skill and I'll agree with you. Until then, FP PoV does prevent RPG.

Couldn't say it better.

Though, someone mentioned M&M. It's not like FPP RPG can't or don't exist, it's just that they are rare and hard to make. When we're talking about a game that primarily uses ranged weapons, it's even harder to do because the game will slip into the FPS routine most likely.

It's not that FPP RPG is impossible, but it's the worst and hardest perspective to use.

 

[Crni Vuk]

IA game having a first person perspective does not make the game an FPS,or an Action game.

You know this can be as well played the other way.

A game having stats inside and "RPG" elements does not make the game necessarily a true Roleplaying game or tactical game.

many people forget that the "dumb" dialogues in Fallout 2 were not only just funny, but served a important point. Nameley "role playing" a dump charcater. Now, tell me how many "RPGs" today allow you to play a really "dump" character or a diplomath to give a different example and do even show that with dialogues and different results. That was the reason as well why your character would only grumble and snarl when you gave him the inteligence of 1. And thus face the situation that almost everyone would attack him on sight.

This what so ever has noting to do with "First person". Its just simple roleplaying. And Fallout 3 is not providing that. In Fallout 3 a character with a inteligence of 1 has in general the same conception like a character with inteligence of 10.

 

[Rev. Layle]

The Bard's Tale 1, 2 and 3 - all first person perspective

 

[Josan12]

First person removes the medium (That character) and gets you, the player, directly in the middle of the action. When something jumps on you from the dark, it jumps right in your face, not in the character's.
Another thing, when playing first person, you are unique, you feel different from the rest - it's like the whole game world revolves around you. In a different pespective, you feel like just another guy, one of many and that makes the world a little more complicated and real.

Absolutely. Well said. And also, if you look at FO1 & 2, the game screen scrolls independantly of the PC - it is not locked to the movements of the player. For me, this is a very interesting and somewhat unique fundamental difference - it makes me (the player) feel like i am simply an ordinary part of the game world. Much more immersive.

FPP to me is the opposite - as Relentless says, it's the more egocentric perspective on the game world and narrows the view of the game world to *only* that of the player, making them the center of everything.

Basicly, in my view:

FPP = make the player feel important view
3PP = make the game world the most important.

 

[Dead Guy]

Does it really make sense that you can't shoot the guy one foot away from you because your small guns stat is too low? What, does your character have no knowledge on what direction to aim the barrel? Does he have no knowledge on how to pull a trigger? Or is it because the computer thinks your character is so stupid that it forgot to turn off the safety?

If the game was truly roleplaying, you'd be the character anyways. Its you playing that character, not the computer playing it for you.

If you got up close in fallout, you always got about 75% chance to hit. That's with a gifted charachter that suffers penalties to his skills and with no points in small guns and it's not a tag skill, so I imagine it's hard to miss with a normal charachter with no points in small guns. How high percentage do you think the skeet shooters in the olympics have in small guns? How high is the skill of the average guy compared to that?

Your last paragraph makes no sense to me at all. The last line is true, but what does it have to do with anything? You control your charachter even if you don't get to aim for him too, it's just a different method of control, where you don't make the build's skill at shooting irrelevant.

I love games where I get to run around and aim myself, but fallout is not one of those games to me, because it was one of the few games that did stat-based gaming fun, while there are loads of good games where I can aim. I just think you either go with a game where you create a character who's success at things depends on his stats, or you give the player hit points and a bunch of guns and let them take it from there. Both are fun, and I guess we just differ in our appreciation, or lack thereof, of hybrids of the two forms.

But on topic, of course a first person perspective doesn't stop a game from being a role plating game.

 

[nemetoad]

Personally I think it isn't a problem of first or third perspective, it's how the world around you is built and how you fit into it. Fallout 1, 2, and 3 suffer from the latter. The world doesn't really move, change, develop or anything unless you make it do so. Either way, first person or third, it is egocentric. You're part of the world, but the world depends on your actions for how it is to change.

Really, it isn't a matter of perspective it's a matter of game mechanics. Personally I'd like to see a future game set up where the world develops with or without you. Depending on how you choose your actions, the course of change is of course different.

edit: Dead Guy - I had gifted and no points added into melee. Using the basic Spear and later a regular knife, melee's percent chance of hitting was 47%. The beginning of my game consisted of hitting an enemy for 2 damage every 5 times I attacked. Fun I find the game mechanic more annoying then challenging. I enjoy story more then gameplay anyways - Fallout 3's is lacking, I admit, but I haven't seen a truly great plotline in...ugh, I don't remember.