Why does the NCR go after Enclave remnants, but not remnants of the Master's Army?

Discussion in 'General Fallout Discussion' started by LostLegion101, Feb 20, 2021.

  1. LostLegion101

    LostLegion101 First time out of the vault

    2
    Feb 20, 2021
    This is something I just had a thought about that I was wondering if anyone here knew about? I know that the NCR actively seems to hunt down anyone who seemed to have any kind of of association with the Enclave. Even people like Arcade in New Vegas who was only an infant when Navarro went up in flames could get arrested for war crimes he had never even been apart off.

    So if the NCR goes hard against Enclave remnants why aren't they same with remnants of the Master's Army like Marcus? If the Master had gotten his way, the NCR as we know it wouldn't have existed since the mutant army would have either ransacked the towns that would later make up the NCR for people to toss into a vat of FEV or destroyed them for resisting. The closet thing you get is general super mutant persecution from people just being afraid of them, but nothing on level of putting them on trial for war crimes.
     
  2. Norzan

    Norzan Vault Fossil

    Apr 7, 2017
    The NCR does send a group of mercenaries to deal with Jacobstown in New Vegas.
     
  3. Hardboiled Android

    Hardboiled Android Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    850
    Jun 7, 2015
    They probably would have if they had been more developed at the time the Master emerged, but they were just a little podunk vilalge at the time of the Master's Army that was totally unaffected by it - and keep in mind, canonically the only major settlement to be destroyed was isolated, despised Necropolis.

    By the time of Fo2/FNV, a lot of time has passed and if there was enough bad blood to actively hunt down every last Super Mutant at an institutional level it had simmered down by then.

    This is a REALLY imperfect analogy for a number of reasons, but its the same reason the US doesn't prosecute Native Americans for war crimes on account of King Phillip's War.
     
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  4. LostLegion101

    LostLegion101 First time out of the vault

    2
    Feb 20, 2021
    They do, but the mercs in question aren't really there to put on a show trial with a judge and jury. They were just sent to either scare the mutants off by harassing them or just kill them if they get uppity about it.

    Norton: "Won't name names, but some important folks in the NCR are sick of muties attacking their Brahmin herds. They want them gone from NCR territory. Maybe this group had something to do with attacking Brahmin, maybe not. Doesn't matter. We're getting paid to make them go away."

    This is what confused me. The mutants are more treated as pests that the NCR wants off their lawn where as the hunt of Enclave remnants is almost akin to a Nazi hunt that even the BoS gets involved in.


    Yeah, that makes more sense. By the time of Fallout 2, the Master's army is basically ancient history and if the town's that would later make up the NCR weren't directly effected by them, then their wouldn't be much political pressure to prosecute them the same way they do the Enclave.
     
  5. Dayglow Drifter

    Dayglow Drifter Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    368
    Sep 25, 2018
    Yeah there's probably a couple possible reasons for this:

    • The NCR wasn't really victimized or threatened in any meaningful capacity by The Master on account of him being out of the picture by the time they get started
    • Conversely, the NCR under the Tandi Administration were direct targets for what was essentially Nazi-era Generalplan Ost style genocide planned by The Enclave
    • A resurgent underground neo-Enclave set up by their survivors could have been seen as a possibility, whereas The Master's army is powerless without their leader who is never coming back
     
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  6. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Mojave Express Employee of the Month

    Mar 16, 2013
    The Unity had dissolved a solid 20 years before the NCR is even officially founded as a state. Plenty of time for mutants to spread out and fade into the background. We see that despite attempts at official integration, Mutants still recieve prejudice and even state-sponsored violence from NCR.

    The Enclave on the other hand became known to the world as the most significant threat the Wasteland had ever faced whilst the NCR was also a stable-state that had existed for 60+ years at that point.

    Simply put, the Enclave were an active threat to national security, whilst the Unity dissolved decades before the state even existed.

    I also feel we're missing the context that was never added to NV proper (but was a solid fact of Van Buren lore), and was removed prior to release but seems to have been intended: The Enclave nuked San Francisco in retaliation for the Oil Rig, and that combined with Navarro would suggest that the Enclave are still an active organized threat after the death of their main body. Same thing can't be said for The Unity.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2021
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  7. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    Also, the Brotherhood of Steel, who were a major force at the time DID hunt down the remnants of the Master's Army, as indicated by Jacob and Marcus (As well as them hunting down a resurgence in the Midwest, if you consider Tactics canon)

    That's part of the reason there was a mass migration of Supermutants away from California, as indicated by dialogue in The Den indicating huge groups of big green mutants migrating across the wasteland.

    I'm guessing that by the time the NCR forms, they kinda want to push the idea of a tolerant society towards mutants, so they intergrate Supermutants in to their structure (Despite NCR Senators still using violence against Mutants as a source of cheap political support)
     
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  8. Iprovidelittlepianos

    Iprovidelittlepianos Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    332
    May 12, 2020
    I agree with most of what’s already been stated here, but I’d like to add that the Enclave is/was a bigger threat than the Unity by pretty much every measure.

    Your average advanced power armored enclave soldier is harder to take down than your average super mutant, if only because of the advanced power armor. They will most likely have better weapons as well. Adding to this, if an enclave soldier takes off the armor they are virtually indistinguishable from any other wasteland human (though the soldier would vehemently deny this point). A super mutant can’t blend in like an enclave soldier can; super mutants will likely be discriminated against even if they don’t hold Unity views. That’s probably part of what makes the Enclave so much scarier to the NCR, the potential for subterfuge.

    I wouldn’t say the Unity was entirely irrelevant by the time of fallout 2. Remnants of the master’s army were a somewhat common encounter in wasteland near NCR/New Reno/Broken Hills. However, the NCR has theoretically been dealing with these remnants since it was still called Shady Sands. To them these super mutants are like another group of raiders, albeit a heavily armed and heavily mutated group of raiders. The enclave is a new(er) threat, which makes them scarier and results in knee jerk reactions like executing anyone who has ever been involved with the Enclave in any capacity.
     
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  9. Eshanas

    Eshanas Vault Dweller

    775
    Jul 6, 2016
    That last part about the Nuke would be a good 'send off', just a bit of lore but it would really rile the NCR and wasteland up. The Enclave was broken but could still nuke a city (It also gets rid of the Shi and Hubbologists) just because a merc took a ship from there to them.
     
  10. naossano

    naossano So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 19, 2006
    The remnants of unity were still a threat after the death of the master, when they still had many troops and a strong leadership.
    Those were significant opponents for the Brotherhood of Steel during the timeline of Fobos and Fallout Tactics (which are sets before Fallout 2)

    By the time Fallout 2 happens, the remnants of the unity are almost nonexistant. A few squads here and there, but no strong leadership, no actual army, no unique gear. They faded into the background. What is left is the super-mutants as a «species», which includes people who weren't given much choice in the first place, and who may want to integrates into the rest of societies. Hunting them based on their gene would border on facism and could possibly clashes with the image the NCR tries to picture themselves with.
     
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  11. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    I think it's fair enough to use Tactics as a source...But BOS?
     
  12. Cobra Commander

    Cobra Commander Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    972
    Dec 6, 2016
    hum, really? That's interesting.

    Apart from Navarro, did they exist anywhere else?
     
  13. Atomic Postman

    Atomic Postman Mojave Express Employee of the Month

    Mar 16, 2013
    In terms of the west coast context, we're told in Lonesome Road they have a Chicago outpost. As for in California, it doesn't seem so no. When Navarro fell it appeared to be some kind of death knell
     
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  14. Hardboiled Android

    Hardboiled Android Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    850
    Jun 7, 2015
    That's one of the things I conceptually like about New California - it's sort of hard to justify why the NCR is so riled up against the Enclave in NV, so it makes sense that they were going around causing havoc.
     
  15. naossano

    naossano So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 19, 2006
    Their canonicity is a bit murky, but both games use the remnants of the unity as a major antagonistic force, but both were smart enough to be set earlier than Fallout 2 in the timeline. By the time of Fallout 2, there is not enough remnant to be able to threaten any medium to large settlement.
     
  16. Jogre

    Jogre So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 25, 2015
    I mean, that's a good assesment, but Fallout Tactics actually establishes a reason for the Unity Remnants to exist, and makes them morally interesting. Fallout BOS has a villain that's basically just a repaste of the Lou Tenant, and adds the Supermutants as the main antagonist because they're remembered.

    I would say Fallout BOS's portrayal of Supermutants, despite being more thematically friendly than "West-Tek created 100 different sources of Mutants" is more comparable to Bethesda's approach of slapping them everywhere they can than anything else.
     
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  17. laclongquan

    laclongquan Boned Hunter of Sister

    565
    Jan 11, 2008
    One important factor to consider is biology: Old Age.

    Enclave remnant is human so they can raise new generation with no problem. Thus this faction can last for longer with more ... vigor. they can infiltrate human organizations with not much obstacles

    The Master's Remnants are supermutants who can not birth new SM. Thus with time passing their faction's strength was sapped to the point of near exctinction. And their body's characteristics mean they will always be recognized on sight. No fear of infiltration.

    From that point, supermutants would always be a minor nuisance to NCR.
     
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  18. naossano

    naossano So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 19, 2006
    Well, the super-mutants had spies who could use stealthboys. But now, they are rendered mentally unstable and obsessed over their own devices.
     
  19. megamike15

    megamike15 It Wandered In From the Wastes

    120
    Mar 30, 2016
    the super mutants never attacked shady sands if i remember right. and by the time they became ncr the super mutants all moved on to areas far away from them and stopped being a threat.

    the encalve on the other hand was a regional threat and threatened what the ncr wanted to do in California.

    despite the fact i don't remember the two factions interacting at all in 2.
     
  20. Iprovidelittlepianos

    Iprovidelittlepianos Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    332
    May 12, 2020
    Yeah they don’t interact at all in the game. The NCR-Enclave war begins after the game ends, according to the Fallout bible and eventually new vegas.