Why don't we have a communist society yet? I mean we could.

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Crni Vuk, Feb 17, 2019.

  1. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Oct 27, 2003
    I get your meaning Crni. I am not really keen on corporate republics myself, I was just pointing out there is/has to be space for both.
     
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  2. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008


    ^ If you really want to understand where I am coming from.
     
  3. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    First example is illegal work being shit, second is replaceable unskilled menial workers in fast food chains being replaceable.
    Does it get any better?
    It's over 40 minutes, I need to know if there's more to it than "Waaaah I have no skills so I must compete with millions of others so now I'm an anarchist because hopefully shit'll be better then"-type of timewaste.
     
  4. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Uhm, that's what it was like for the last 300 years or so, from coal miners to farm workers and fast food joints. It is one of the reasons why you got unions and workers rights. Workers are always expandable. What ever if they sell fast food or if they manufacture cars or serve as engineers isn't the point. Even engineers are often organised in some way. Some people are maybe more expandable than others. But when it comes to paying your rent, food and covering your cost of living maybe even for obtaining higher skills and levels of education while you see large companies also getting away with illegal practises it's far from "Waaaah I have no skills so I must compete with millions of others so now I'm an anarchist because hopefully shit'll be better then". Demanding improvements in the labour market isn't complaining.

    Look, I didn't post this to convince you from my points it's just for those that are more interested in hearing where I am coming from with my convictions and leftist ideals. If we're not out there trying to improve the situation not only for our self but also for other people then what the hell are we doing her anyway?
     
  5. Serifan

    Serifan Orderite Orderite

    Aug 3, 2006
    hahaha I was going say the same thing.
     
  6. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Hahaha. Yeah so funny! Hahaha! it will be really funny once unemployment reaches new heights and the recession that comes with it will hit society harder than the one during the 1920s.
     
  7. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Precious Fluids of The Order Staff Member Moderator Orderite

    Apr 1, 2005
    I'm not trying to jump into this debate hardcore but you should know most people aren't concerned with improving the situation for everyone. It seems like they are but if it comes to actually doing something (like going out and physically doing something) people will clam up.

    "I'm down with this shit!"
    "Ok I will put that plan into action and we can get started next week. When can you be there?"
    "Uhhhhh next week might not be good for me."

    Even charity work just seeks to feed people that are always going to have a shitty miserable life but now they have a slightly fuller tummy while being miserable. It's all one big holding pattern. What most people are trying to do is take care of themselves and maybe their loved ones. You can see that at the checkout aisle when one person buys the entire stores worth of baby food so they can sell it online for profit. Yes, most people are like that. Maybe not so blatant about it. But on a base human level all people are like that. For every person that recycles there are ten people that throw their fast food out the window while they are driving down the highway.

    That is why it is better if it just looks like you give a shit instead of actually caring. You hit all the right bullet points. You vote the right way. You post angry on Facebook when your pet projects don't get approval.

    So what happens when you take away our ability to somehow overcome all of this? What happens if I become rich off my new marijuana grow, manage to finally make something of myself in the world, only for the government to come and tell me this is now a government run industry. How dare you make money off this shit we would have put you in jail for 5 years ago. This is our game now sucker.

    Now change weed to anything else. That is why it won't work. American dream means you need to work for it. If you lack the skills you are a loser. That is what it boils down to. Not enough people know they are fucking losers. You won't make anything of yourself if the government gives you 1000 bucks a month either. It will be spent on bills and creature comforts so you don't blow your brains out. When I say you I am also talking about me so don't fret.

    If the thread said "Why don't we have a Socialist society?" I would be all for it...maybe. As it is I just want to bash my head into the wall repeatedly at the thought that this can work on a massive scale.

    :falloutonline:
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2020
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  8. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    It's not even about that. I am merely talking about improving conditions for workers. Living wages, unions, social standards, sick leave, health care, pensions, affordable cost of living and all that stuff for ordinary workers, regardless if they are flipping burgers or driving trucks. If that's already seen as "socialism" and "complaining" that you're stuck in a "skill-less" job, then we're in a much worse situation than I ever thought possible.

     
  9. Serifan

    Serifan Orderite Orderite

    Aug 3, 2006
    Commies are funny.

    You would think they would all be for less immigrants as this drives down wages but nope they want more.
     
  10. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    I don't make a difference here. Immigrants and citizens share the same issue. I just see trough this ugly spiel that's only meant to separate a large group of people dealing with the exact same issues in to two groups and pitting them against each other by telling one of them that the other one is at fault for their situation ... Divide et impera, Divide and rule (Latin: divide et impera), or divide and conquer, in politics and sociology is gaining and maintaining power by breaking up larger concentrations of power into pieces that individually have less power than the one implementing the strategy.[citation needed].

    Right. And who's employing those immigrants driving wages down? Commies, I suppose ... corporations and business owners being at fault here which actually employ those dirty nationality xyz which drive down wages so much? Naw. That's socialist talk.

    This talking point is as old like recorded history I guess ...



    Don't you get tired of this talking point that is flying around for the last 200 years or so and is always used to manipulate you in to hating someone who has almost no say in this? Even if I would assume for a moment that immigration - do we not make at least a difference between legal and illegal anymore? - would be the sole factor pushing down wages, then why don't you attack those that actually e-m-p-l-o-y them instead of saying,
    "No! I am not giving this (insert hated minority here) a job who's doing it for a nickel! I am going to employ a real (insert your nation here) for 12$ per hour who can show me his work permit! I am a patriot god damnit! No honest decent true (insert your nation here) should work for less than the minimum wage!"

    Immigrants have pretty much zero choice or say in this matter. And yet they often get blamed for it and suffer most of the hate and discrimination. Or at least I haven't heard racists and extremists attacking the guys that actually employ them for those wages.

    That's the reason why I defend immigrants, or let us better say why I don't blame them because it's not in their power to actually change it or who's employing them. Of course unlimited immigration is an additional stress on the labour market. And I am against illegal immigration. But do you know what happend here in Germany recently? Because so many people have been missing in those low wage jobs on farms because of closed borders they had to "fly in" approx. 40.000 workers from eastern Europe in to Germany to do the job. Or all those farmers would have lost their precious asparagus.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2020
  11. Serifan

    Serifan Orderite Orderite

    Aug 3, 2006
    Crni why do you take our jobz!
     
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  12. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Why do you get so angry when people leave their lids on the bottles?
     
  13. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Precious Fluids of The Order Staff Member Moderator Orderite

    Apr 1, 2005
    If people can't put lids on bottles how are they ever going to stop being selfish and become Commies?!
     
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  14. Serifan

    Serifan Orderite Orderite

    Aug 3, 2006
    Because they remind me of immigrants taken our jobz!!!

    I know you say it’s not immigrants fault but it kinda is. They willing to work at the lower wages and fill jobs that could be filled with the native population.

    let’s take my own experiences. Lived in same place all my life.

    All the service stations went from locally owned hiring local people. The one service station I went to nearly every day my whole life and had locales working there for years and years. Station got bought out by United fuel, Indians took over ownership, fired all the staff now only Indians work there on 457 student visas.

    90% of all service stations are now owned by Indians and only hire Indians.

    All the local fast food joints went from mostly locals to now all 457 immigrants.

    I used to get my pizza delivered by young school aged kids. Now I get pizza delivered by 45 year old paki.

    That’s what I see. I see people not born here taking away job opportunities of people who have lived here all there lives. This was not always the case.

    But that’s just my opinion and from what I have experienced and seen.
     
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  15. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Again, what is about those that are willing to actually take them and pay those low wages? Are they completely blameless in your scenario?

    Who's the worse person, the one taking the job, out of necessity maybe because he/she needs to feed their families or support their relatives or the one exploiting this necessity?

    What stops the employer from actually saying "no" to the immigrant and giving the 5$ per hour job to a legal citizens and paying 12$ a hour? Why do they actually don't pay a good wage to their fellow citizens.

    Why do you treat this situation like it's a one way street or act like as the immigrant has a real choice here. What are they supposed to do exactly? Going back to their country because they don't want to 'force' their low wages on the employers so they can not pay the correct wages to true citizens? Since when has that shit ever happend really ...

    We are right now in a lock down, so no immigrants are really coming in, most borders are closed. Shouldn't droves of jobless people now storm all those low wage jobs where they now get paid very high amounts of money by all those altruistic business owners? Is that what happend here in Germany? No. It's not. What has happend is farmers crying their lungs out about that there is no one harvesting their crops. But did they raise the wages? Did they improved working conditions? They did not. What we've seen is 40.000 people flying in to Germany from Eastern Europe working bellow the minimum wage on the fields now. Of which now some have also died du to the virus spreading among them. Which was one of the reasons why this lock down is actually in effect to avoid such stuff.

    And you're telling me those people are to blame now for the low wages? How much influence do they really have here? They have no other choice but to either accept those conditions or stay at home.


    Besides, isn't that what a free market is about Serifan? If there is someone willing to do the job for less money, then why is it all of sudden wrong because it's an >Immigrant< doing it? But if the domestic citizen is suddenly complaining about the low wages then he's hahahahaha! The complaining commie-looser dick in his low skilled job!

    Give me a brake.
     
  16. Serifan

    Serifan Orderite Orderite

    Aug 3, 2006
    THEY TOOK OUR JOBZZZZ!

    ok I will be kinda serious.

    It’s the CORPORATIONS!!!!!!! Evil people taken advantage of them immigrants who haz no choices!!!

    Sure probably true.

    Here’s some facts and from my experiences.

    While service stations come under corporations the hiring and ownership is done via the lease holder. So immigrants are bringing in immigrants under a shitty student visa program or hire family for cheap.

    Take the mango picking industry where I live. Most of the major contract winners for picking is won by several Thai and vitemese owned companies because they get family flown over pay almost nothing in wages so they win contracts and pretty much have a monopoly here now as no locals can compete with there prices.

    I know buzzfeed says it’s not a problem but I can’t deny what I know and have seen.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2020
  17. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    You know this is NMA and not the Order, you might want cut down on your trolling a little.
     
  18. Serifan

    Serifan Orderite Orderite

    Aug 3, 2006
    Yeah well I’m kinda not taking it serious.

    It is what it is Crni. I have no control over it but I’m not going to blindly except that it has no effect on local wages and jobs when I have seen it happen first hand.
     
  19. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Where did I say that it has no effect? I just don't see a benefit in actually blaming or bashing those that have very little influence on the over all situation and actually have a need for those jobs, or do you think they love to sell their skin so cheap on the market or something? Are they all just dumb idiots which think, hmmm! I could do this job 11$ per hour! Naw. That would be stupid. I want to hurt people! Ill do it for 5$! Now, where is that sweet clogged toilet!

    Again, for the record, immigration if done without regulations and unchecked particularly illegal one, can be a serious issues. No doubts about it! But it's not the immigrant that's dictating the wages. No one is stopping employers from paying 15$ per hour for ALL(!) jobs and to everyone equally.
     
  20. Serifan

    Serifan Orderite Orderite

    Aug 3, 2006
    Well you’re the one arguing with me over my commies should be for less immigration because of immigration effecting wages. I’m not sure what you mean by me blaming them and in the same sentence say it does have an effect.

    Also I gave you examples of my experiences where they are dictating wages and yes some will do work for much less especially when many are here to work and send money to family in poor countries where the higher exchange rate triples the money. I see it here as well with my business, they will bring family members over on holiday visa they will go around for the visa period collect containers get the cash and take it back home. And no I don’t have an issue with them supporting there families back home but I’m not going to pretend low skill immigration does not effect native low skilled workers.

    I’m not trying to make this personal or imply all immigrants bad cause they tooks our jobz, it is what it is.