Why Fo4 fucked Fallout lore

Discussion in 'Fallout 4' started by 0wing, Apr 30, 2016.

  1. 0wing

    0wing Все умрут, а я волномут

    Mar 23, 2015
    Originally from https://www.reddit.com/r/falloutlore/comments/4h3ivg/why_fo4_fucked_fallouts_lore/ but OP's text is deleted.

    The lore is broken beyond repair, now. Did Mister Emil Pagliarulo (Fallout 4's lead writer) actually play any previous Fallout game? I've come to think that the answer is no. Or maybe he did, and didn't take them into account.

    Listen, Fallout 4 is pretty much a good game. Ambitious, great atmosphere, pleasant gameplay, nice graphics, big map, etc, etc. I've had good times playing it, great times, even. The exploration is nice, some mods truly add something, the crafting system is well done etc. There are a few problems, sure, like for any other game... But there is a major flaw that cannot be skipped and that makes me wonder about the seriousness of the studio's writing team.

    We already know the weaknesses of the main storyline and how it falls flat in its core elements (no choice at all, no consequences and forced, awkward emotion moments that didn't work well). Writers are supposed to be familiar with storytelling structures that can avoid these kinds of immersion breaking moments. I'd suggest to read "hero's journey" by Vogler, the various studies from Joseph Campbell or "Story" by Robert Mckee. But beyond the storytelling, we should be worried about the lore breaking elements.

    Now, what is lore ? (baby don't hurt me) it's a series of facts, an established timeline, a recurring theme and a story structure introduced by the first game. Adding things to them is fine, it's actually what we wish a new episode has. But removing, ignoring or changing these core elements is what makes a lore breaking moment.

    1 : The base money is caps. Contradiction with : Fallout 2. Caps were only used during the first years after the war, as "farmer's money", as a currency indexed on the water value : one cap = one bottle of water.

    Diamond City is a trading hub, which means that there are caravans stopping by. Caravans from places where there are other currencies (their diversity is quite well established in all the previous titles) These caravaneers' employers want their share on the transactions, for obvious reasons. And by share, I don't mean barter of goods, I mean cash. Money. So, for Diamond City to actually exist as a city, there needs to be an exchange currency, aka, a bank. Baseball cards, game tickets, printed money... PRINTED money ? Now, that would give Piper way more importance, given the fact that she holds the printing machine. Her conflict with the mayor would have another dimension, as we'd witness not only a clash of convictions, but of pure, raw, political power. The game actually tries to take that direction, but falls flat on it. And here's a perfect example of a current, ingame dramatic situation that would have been greatly enhanced by a more serious approach on the established lore. Realism wouldn't change the current setting and drama, it would actually enhance it.

    « No, no, you can't touch caps, they are a part to Fallout's identity » some might say. Wrong. Fallout 1 may had caps, but Fallout 2 had NCR Dollars backed on Redding's gold, issued by the Republic Reserve located in Angel's Boneyard. Mining communities use mine scrips. The Mojave accepts another currency, the Sunset Sasparilla caps. The whole midwest tribes uses ring pulls and Brotherhood printed scrips. The Legion's turf, which is insanely huge, uses Denarius and Aureus.

    How exactly does it make sense for the east coast to use a Californian money abandonned since almost a century, and was backed by water in an arid environment, especially considering that there are six other kind of currencies between the HUB and the Commonwealth ? Considering that there is water EVERYWHERE in the commonwealth, and yet, caps have the exact same value as thousands of miles away, where it was used in an arid, desertic setting a century ago. Now, how long after the black plague did the European banks started to make loans and make money, again ?

    Fallout's lore established a realistic economy, as part of its main thematic : "how do new societies deal with the errors of the past ?" removing any part of that, even for fun, nostalgia or fanservice, is removing a part of the central thematic. In other words, it's breaking the lore. There are numerous ways to keep the lore up and kicking, yet still inventing new, original concepts. Among them, let's imagine... I don't know, let's imagine that the BoS wishes to extend his power through political and economical management. They'd basically turn into medieval templars (the bank templars, not the assassin's creed gymnasts), which would be as lore friendly as original. After all, they control the water purifier, and for many years, the currency was indexed on the water prices. What if they tried to extend that currency to the commonwealth, and encounter a suspiciously lawless state, with a shadow government opposing this new foreign currency ? Wouldn't that be the first hint of the institute's motives ? Wouldn't this economical takeover be a way to enhance the actual, current arrival of the Prydwen ? When you know that the BoS not only comes for the institute, but also to implement their power in this new land, that's double the intimidation potential of the scene.

    Listen, I'm a random idiot, not a writer. And here are already two basic ideas to justify an economical situation that would fit the lore and the current storyline. Any competent writer could find dozens of other, better scenarios. And as proven, realism and lore fidelity wouldn't require to rewrite the game from scratch. It can enhance the current storyline and setting, which is actually good and wouldn't need a lot of duct tape to actually hold still.

    2 : Jet is presented as a pre-war drug, shipped to vault 95 before it was sealed. Contradiction with : Fallout 2. In F2, you get to meet Myron, who created the Jet almost two centuries after the apocalypse. He clearly states how he made it (with Brahmin's excrements), how many slaves died during the tests, who ordered the drugs (The Mordinos) and why (to seize control of Redding). "He could have lied, or he could have been inspired by an old drug", would you say. True indeed. However, every chemist is inspired by old drugs at some point. Doesn't mean that the creations share this nature. Also, Myron was a chemist genius, able to build chems at will, and never lied to the player about it. Confronted with his skills or the recipes of chems, you never see him talking nonsense, he actually proves that he has a great knowledge on the production process. "Derivatives of lysergics acid diethylamide and psilocybin" is an actual line from Myron, if your science skill is high enough to talk about chemistry with him. The boy was also begging you to spare him when you first met him. So he was a coward. So can you imagine him lying to Big Jesus Mordino's face ? Remember how the man has a surprisingly good empathy and actually murders the player, a rough tribal wastelander, at the second he notices chit chat or insolence. Here, this is Myron we talk about. A skinny kid. Finally, the said kid killed between 100 and 200 slaves to get the jet "working". Now, let's do the math.

    When you meet Metzger, the ruler of the slaver's guild, he sells Vic for 1000 dollars. An old, crippled, useless repairman. Not a young male tribal warrior in his prime, no, no. Metzger buys Sulik for 1200 dollars, and pays each slaver 800 dollars for a run. Which means that a man like Sulik must be sold between 4000 and 5000 dollars for Metzger to make a profit. Now, look : the Mordinos, intelligent, drug knowing warlords who wouldn't spend a cap for nothing, bought 100 to 200 slaves so that Myron can kill them, and it's no big deal. Do you think that they would have spent such a fortune if Jet was actually a pre-war drug that any chemist could remake ? Remember how advanced was Myron's lab ? No matter how you put it, Jet is not a pre war drug. Maybe it's inspired by pre war chems, but it's not one of them. And it couldn't possibly be an easy to make drug, as per the Mordinos' investments. It's not a big deal, but when you manage a huge franchise which was defined by its details, you can't just ignore the little things which make the whole hold together.

    3 : Again, Super Mutants are all idiots (except for Virgil). Contradiction with : Fallout 1, 2, tactics. First of all, why are super mutants even agressive ? F1, F2, Ftactics' super mutants were agressive because they were brainwashed by the children of the cathedral to see humanity as the enemy. And yet, hundreds of them were already starting to see their errors and integrated themselves into society. FEV doesn't turn people into racists for no reason. Yeah, except Vault 87's for some reason, but F4's super mutants aren't from there. Is there even a reason for them being so aggressive and not simply try to form a society, like all the super mutants who weren't brainwashed ?

    Now, about their intelligence. I know that there are three types of super mutants. Now, about their individual intelligence : Most of the first californian super mutants were indeed imbeciles (even though, remember the Lieutenant ? A smart guy, indeed. Still... just a lieutenant, a low ranked officer, if the unity's army followed a traditional chain of command) but most of these died during their wars against the different brotherhood chapters. What remained was the operative core of the Master's army, in which you could find : Marcus, Zaius, Gamorrin, and enough super mutants to actually form Broken Hills. A community ruled by social contract, business, production, diplomacy, justice and even scientific research. Vault City guide for travelers actually states that there are several hundreds of super mutants in town, and from what he see of it, most of them are sociable. Some even form families. They don't look down on Ghouls and they welcome human-ruled private firms, such as caravans and shops. Even the super mutants warriors of the midwest are actually smart. Brutal, yes, but smart enough to actually enroll in various BoS tactical squads. So, core super mutants are actually able to be pretty smart. Not everyone is soaking rads, in Fallout, and finding relatively unaffected people shouldn't be too much of a problem anyway. Some would say "hey ! Wasn't Fallout 1's main quest revolving around the fact that the Master couldn't raise smart mutants ?" Well, people, that's actually more open to interpretations than most believe. Now, I'm not saying that my perception is the good one, but it leads to a conclusion we can all agree on.

    First of all, the Master was well aware that the FEV wouldn't necesseraly turn vault residents into super mutants. Sorry, Vault 87, but we sometimes forget that the Master had already made a dipping with a previous vault 13's vault dweller named Talius, and it turned him into an Harold like monster, not a super mutant. As for the rest, the master only talks about creating a "master race" through "unity", but he never actually specifies "super mutants". For all we know, he could be indeed referring to super mutants... Or to himself, as the first member of this race, hence his nickname. He is definetely a superior being, judging by his psychic abilities he obtained thanks to what ? Unity. The very precise word for the process he intends to use. In other words, the intelligence of the super mutants may have been a big issue, true, but it wasn't much of an issue when you take the Master's plans, the actual composition of his army and broken hills population in account. So that's why only seeing dumb mutants is not only unoriginal, it could actually be lore breaking.

    What about the Institute's ? They are all dumbs. What about Vault 87's ? They are all dumbs.

    As for the institute super mutants, they are also lore breaking. The institute is supposed to be smart. Yet, they'd release their own creatures, potentially aware of the location of the secret base, run free and try to overrun Diamond City ? What if they actually succeeded ? The whole institute's plan would fall flat. Such stupidity from the "most brilliant minds" is, by itself, lore breaking.

    4 : why is Sanctuary empty ? People live litteraly minutes away from Sanctuary, living in shacks, exposed to danger. Someone built a workshop in Sanctuary some time ago, yet nobody built anything there for more than two centuries. How does that makes any sense?

    5 : The institute's main defense is its position and its secrecy. It's an enclave far under the surface, with no enter, no exit. You can only enter via teleportation. Contradiction with : Fallout 4 itself. Well, the institute is inside the Massachusetts INSTITUTE of technology. Any raider who isn't dumbed by chems would have guessed the location in a matter of hours (as a matter of fact, I didn't understand that people did not know the location of their boogeyman for more than sixty years. I only had to watch the trailer to link the Institute with the MIT and I'm neither American nor particulary smart. I have a very abstract idea of the place and yet, it was enough to find the link before the trailer even ended. And the whole commonwealth, dealing with the Institute for half a century, couldn't make that educated guess ? Come on !) All it takes to get in is a hole in the ground and remember : super mutants and raiders have fat mans. A couple of MedX before getting into the sewers' tunnels could also do the trick. So, I'm all for the suspension of disbelief. Maybe I could imagine that people didn't find the institute for a year, maybe five if they have other problems to deal with in priority. But we are talking about sixty years, here. Sixty years after the Institute litteraly made an act of war towards the whole commonwealth, at the provisional government incident. "Wait, no ! The institute couldn't be found at the MIT" would say the scavengers. True indeed. But they sealed the undeground entrances of one of the most advanced technological places of the area. In a matter of only a few months, dozen of scavengers would raise red flags, as they'd realize that something about this Institute's last known place is wrong. "These scavengers could be replaced by synths and tell everyone that everything is fine". Good point indeed... but let's look at the chronology, and we'll come to the conclusion that the scavengers would have been there decades before a gen3 synth prototype even gets made. So, there is an obvious problem, here.

    May I remind you that this happens 30 years before the brotherhood of steel sends a whole chapter to protect a DJ and a water purifier machine which is not needed, and which doesn't work yet. And yet, the Institute operates almost right in the open, completely safe. It may sound like poor writing, but it's actually conflicting with the game's own lore, which presents them as a dark, powerful and smart threat.

    Also, they kidnap people in secret, right ? Acting in the shadows and all that. Now, tell me. Which NPC doesn't actually know about the kidnappings ? Everyone's aware. The "broken mask" incident happened 58 years before the story begins, and at this point, the Institute had already declared war on the commonwealth by killing its representatives. Funny how people went "meh" and agreed to leave them in peace. Now, let's be honest : the institute may be the boogeyman, but it is neither secretive, nor protective. They are basically wreckless, awkward Hubologists flexing their muscle to the whole country, telling "come at me, bro!" to any faction actually able to destroy them without a sweat. Which actually happens and did not require more than 10 minutemen. Really, any mercenary organisation could have get the job done.

    6 : Why does Virgil hides in the glowing sea ? Virgil, despite being a cool and interesting character, hides in the glowing sea in order to make sure that the institute won't go after him. Except that robots, Gen1 and gen2 Synths are immune to radiation, as per Valentine's comments on the glowing sea and as per Codsworth's chit chat about radiations.

    Let's remember that in Fallout's universe, synthetic organisms use vacuum tubes instead of microtransistors, which makes them more resistant to EMPs. So, the glowing sea is probably the worst place to hide from a robotic army, because it's the only place where they can actually deal with their business without raising any suspicion anywhere. The fact that Virgil is still in the commonwealth makes sense for the gameplay, but storywise, it makes no sense.

    7 : The Institute is made of the greatest minds of the wasteland Contradiction with : the whole franchise What exactly has the Institute accomplished ?

    -They say that their motto is « humanity redifined ». Alright. But West Tek made it two centuries before with embedding DNA with FEV, allowing mutation and evolution to happen way, way faster. Even the master's scientists debunked this idea, because humans WERE evolving ultra fast to match the fauna and flora that West Tek infected. -An synthetic army ? Assaultrons and Securitrons are way deadlier than any of the Institute's synths, they don't show any dysfunctionality like a conscience and they are two centuries old. And still kicking. -Cyborgs ? It was working perfectly well. Improved lifespan, made people stronger, smarter etc. Shaun cancelled this program for no reason. -Synths ? The biggest invention of mankind indeed, used as slaves or mediocre soldiers. On the other hand, the big MT acknowledged sentience in synthetic organisms and actually gave life to inanimate objects just because they could. -Synthetic gorillas in the commonwealth ? Utterly useless. -Synth children ? A perpetually 10 year old android. Useless. -Teleportation ? Pretty cool, except that big MT discovered this technology long before the institute and it worked way, way better. -Weapons ? Which are worse than laser weapons invented two centuries before them. -Agriculture ? Food replicators were invented two centuries before the events of the game, as per the GECK. And they were powered by portable cold fusion reactors, a technology our real life scientists only dream of while the Institute has trouble paying its energy bills. -About the energy. The Institute's greatest accomplishment is a 1942 technology : a nuclear reactor. -FEV ? Cancelled. Despite the fact that FEV turned people into cancer immune organisms two centuries before the events of Fallout 4, where the institute's own president is dying of cancer. -Bioscience ? They infiltrate farms and that's it. On the other hand, Curie outsmarted the entire Institute by developping a cure for every disease, despite being a mark I Mrs.Nanny whose design was already half a century old by the time the bombs fell. The Shi's bioscience in San Francisco is way better than the Institute, because they actually made a plant that eats radiation and scrubs the land to make it livable. They can make synthetic oil out of seaweed and are on the verge of building their own nuclear reactors. -Oh, the institute can cure Super Mutants. Great. West Tek already had the same cure back in 2077. In Fallout 1, Zax even says that anyone who keeps a sample of their original DNA can be turned back into a human. In other words, the institute took two centuries to discover something that West Tek figured out in one year. -The Institute even gets outsmarted by one of their own fellow student, Mr.House, who managed to achieve immortality by himself, with makeshift technology. A technology he intends to sell to the NCR, with whom he makes business. -Artificial Intelligence ? Invented and sold to the military two centuries ago, as proven by Skynet in the Sierra Army Depot.

    8 : The institute's goals are... er... incoherent at most. -Build a better future, underground, and be left in peace. But when a synth goes rogue, the Institute sends a courser who straight up murders entire platoons of gunners in plain sight instead of trying subtelty and stealth. That's one way to draw attention on the institute by merc groups powerful enough to have their own fleet of vertibirds, and who have their HQ only a few miles away. They also want to be a part of the politics of the commonwealth by infiltrating Diamond City. They also infiltrate Sanctuary for no reason.

    -Help humanity with synths, admitting that they feel emotions, trying hard to make them closer to humans and having father considering synth Shaun as a « person ». But also stating that they are only soulless machines incapable of free will, despite having an entire BUREAU dedicated to track down the Synths who DECIDED to betray the Institute. Alright then.

    -Saving humanity while stating that it is doomed and deserves to disappear.

    -Redifining humanity... while cancelling the Cyborg programm, which actually redifined humanity pretty well.

    -Work peacefully with the surface. Right. This is probably why they sent a malfunctioning Synth to represent their interests at the most important political meeting of the commonwealth, which ended in a massacre by their fault.

    9 : The institute doesn't rule the Commonwealth and manages to lose against the Minutemen/Brotherhood/Railroad. Contradiction with : itself. You know that gen3 Synths were available since 58 years? From what we know and see from the institute, let's do the math. They can make, let's say, 20 synths per day, considering their power restrictions. Let's think wide and imagine that there is a 20% margin of non work days. The Institute would have, exactly 338 720 fully operational gen3 synths during the events of Fallout 4. Now, we all know it's impossible. That's enough to fill the ranks of most of modern countries's armies. Plus, the institute gets defeated by Ewok... cough, cough, Minutemen/Railroad/BOS, which, well, couldn't possibly defeat such a wide army. So, this leaves room for only one conclusion : somebody messed up its own lore when providing the dates, numbers and objectives of the institute. As presented in the game, the Institute could have overrun the entire continent in a matter of decades without much problem.

    10 : Shaun has cancer. Contradiction with : Fallout 1, New Vegas & Fallout 4. At this point, Shaun is basically a CEO of a meds industry who refuses to get vaccines because the voices in his head told him not to. In Fallout 1, we learn that the Super Mutants are immune to cancer, thanks to their regenerative cells. It is actually a VERY important point in the Fallout universe, since it's one of the reasons why the master actually considers his army worthy of conquering the world, despite the intelligence issue of a lot of them. That was a century before Fallout 4. The institute grows its own super mutants, which means that, just like Richard Moreau before them, they hold the "vaccine to cancer" in their labs. You won't make me believe that the Institute's leader suffers from Cancer with that. Also, remember, folks : Mr.House was an institute student. Not its president, but a regular student. Before he turned 30, two centuries before F4, he had already unlocked the secret to immortality. He maintained it with the raw power of useless, worthless money, inapt robots and stupid tribes. And Shaun, the boss of the INSTITUTE, a transhumanist through and through, is dying from a cell boo-boo ? I don't buy it. It doesn't fit in the continuity. Finally, let's not forget Kellogg. He's not the Institute's president, he's a replacable thug. Yet, 150 years and still kicking, thanks to the institute's technology. Three times, Fallout 4's lore contradict itself. This is a problem.

    11 : The Californian Brotherhood of steel approved Maxson's rise to power. Contradiction with : fallout bible, Fallout 2, Van Buren, Fallout New Vegas. When Fallout 4 takes place, the Californian Brotherhood doesn't "exist" anymore. It has been annhilated, smashed, destroyed, and everything in between... NCR kicked them when they were down, just like John Wayne would have done. The BoS is currently making a last stand to defend Maxson's State underground, and are getting ready to face the invasion of the NCR force, that CANNOT lose at this point. Even the Mojave Chapter cannot get in touch with HQ, so how would the elders approve Maxson's rise to power ?

    12 : Liberty Prime liberated Anchorage, if we believe Cambridge's robots. Contradiction with : Fallout 3. Liberty Prime wasn't even completed when the battle of Anchorage happened. It has never been deployed on the battlefield until the events of Fallout 3. But yeah, robots could be spreading propaganda. Point taken.

    13 : The BOS blows up the Institute. Contradiction with : all of Fallout's lore. Now, let's imagine a medieval knight. Brotherhood soldiers are basically that, in sci fi. Would a knight kill a heretic holding the Graal ? Sure. So, the BOS would destroy the members of the institute and their synths. But then, would the knight melt the Graal and pretend he did some good work ? Hell no! So why would the BOS nuke their Graal, their cathedral, their biggest resource of technology (something that they actually worship and swear to PROTECT) ? Just look at all the technology inside the Institute. Microscopes. Bulletproof glass. Speakers and security cameras. LED lights. Automated doors which suggests the presence of pneumatic or hydraulic engines. A functional nuclear reactor. Computers. Digging machines somewhere. Humidifiers. Carbon filters in the ventilation systems. Functional coffee machines. Thousands of energy cells used by the synths which would be VERY usefl for the brotherhood soldiers in constant needs of supplies. Ovens, microwaves, circuit boards, wielding machines, washing machines, industrial arms, UV lamps to grow food underground. Water purifiers. Whatever technology used to make synthetic food.

    « The brotherhood doesn't care about post war technologies », you might say. Except that they totally are pre war technology. 75% of the institute's gizmoes exist in our real world, including the nuclear reactor. Also, nobody ever said that the Brotherhood only focuses on pre war technology. Ever. It's a common myth backed by litteraly nobody in the games. Sure, they MOSTLY hoard pre war tech in order to preserve it, but they never limited themselves to that. Every single Fallout title shows the brotherhood having interest in post war tech.

    In Fallout 1, the brotherhood clearly uses weapons manufactured by the gun runners, such as the ripper. Doctor Lorri enhances soldiers with bionic implants, turning them into cyborgs, which are clearly post war technology. In Fallout 2, the brotherhood asks you to find the blueprints of vertibirds so that they can make their own. Vertibirds are post war technology. The chapter also uses ACE, which is an artificial intelligence who became self aware after the war. In Fallout tactics, Paladin Dos is a cyborg. Post war technology. Several endings of Fallout tactics feature the brotherhood relying on an self aware AI to establish themselves in the midwest. These endings are noncanonical, sure, but still. In Fallout 3, the Citadel's terminals mention the lead scribe building a post war technology called an « Accelerated Vector Fusion module » to take control of Liberty Prime's artificial intelligence. In Fallout 4, the Prydwen itself is a post war technology and it serves as the brotherhood HQ. And Proctor Ingram uses bionic implants to cope with the loss of her legs. Remind me again : what use do the BOS scribes have ? Studying the ashes left behind by the paladins ? Fallout 4's writer seems to think that the answer is yes.

    14 : There's the Enclave armor in the wild, untouched for centuries and rusty : Contradiction with : Fallout 2 The Enclave Armor was developped by the Enclave on the Poseidon Oil Rig AFTER the war and would have NEVER found its way in this basement. Ever. Also... Is that rust on it ? But... But the X-01 is made of advanced polywers and not of METAL, which makes it lighter than its counterparts.

    15 : The synths uprising There's a problem with the synths. I'm told that they may be preparing an uprising. This is a problem... Except that it's not. At all. The institute has speakers and synths can be desactivated using a safe word. An uprising would be dealt with in a matter of one minute, by shutting down the synths. I don't even see why this element is treated as a threat.

    16 : A ghoul stays locked in a fridge for two centuries, without food or water. Contradiction with : every fallout. If radiation is all it takes to keep a Ghoul kicking, then why did Necropolis Ghouls died of thirst if you took their water chip, in Fallout 1 ? This is a major, important plot element of the story, since it defines the hero's journey as morally grey, as communities are ruined to save vault 13. Why do Harland in New Vegas clearly states that he had to eat radroaches and drink water from the condensation on the pipes not to die of hunger and thirst ? Why do Slog Ghouls even grow food ? For money ? Come on. They are so broke they can't even pay attention.

    17 : Ghouls can run/charge. Contradiction with : Fallout 1 and 2. In Fallout's lore, there are three « races » of Ghouls : Crazies, Scavengers and Mindless Ones. The only ones who went feral were the Mindless Ones or "Zombies" and they were frail, they were few, slow, they were weak and the only place I remember ever seeing them was around Necropolis. I don't even remember seeing any in Fallout 2. Why's that? Cause they've long since died off. Why? Darwinism, that's why. Survival of the fittest. And they disappeared while being protected by the crazies and scavengers, because they knew they needed protection and couldn't survive on their own longer than a single generation.

    A single charge, and they'd break their legs. For how long would they be crippled ? All their life. So, logically, they don't run. It's actually a pretty important plot element in Fallout 2, as demonstrated by Lenny.

    He, a medic ghoul (not a redneck zombie but an educated doctor) clearly states that Ghouls can't run. This is actually why he feels so sorry for himself and joins Fallout 2's hero, as an atonement act : he couldn't run after the hero's ancestor and help him with his quest. FO1 and 2 made a big deal of showing that Ghouls are easily scared by danger and stay away from trouble because of their fragility... they have advanced atrophy and a skeletal structure that is quite bad at even holding things in place - as we learn from the dialogue in FO2 talking with Harold, and in Fallout Tactics dialogs with the Ghouls who seek the protection of the Midwest Brotherhood of Steel. The bravest Ghouls actually enlist in the brotherhood ranks, but their agility is limited to six points and they can't run. They can only do an awkward, twisted trot.

    In Fallout 4, Ferals are rotting corpses who have survived 200 years in a hostile/racist environment, without any protection, some of them without even eating anything, and they are able to run faster than humans, LITTERALY avoid bullets, charge and inflict massive damages. You can see the problem here.

    18 : There are super mutants at Boston. Contradiction with : all fallouts. Fallout 1 ends with the destruction of the FEV base, which was used to create mutants... And let me tell this again : pure, raw FEV doesn't produce super mutants, but monsters like Harold or the master. To engineer Super Mutants, the greatest mind of the wasteland had to grow psychic powers, unite itself with a computer and spend years of failures before even making his first super mutant. The destruction of his labs mean only one thing : that this knowledge is lost, possibly forever. There isn't a single plausible, lore-friendly scenario that explains how dumby dumb super mutants could create new soldiers on their own. Fallout 2, which happens many decades after, actually confirms that the super mutants are almost all dead. Fallout Tactics sees the midwest brotherhood stop the lat Super Mutants wave pretty easily. Depending on the ending, they end up enlisting for the Brotherhood of steel or exterminated in camps. Fallout 3 ends with the Brotherhood seizing Washington D.C., Liberty Prime, Enclave technology and choppers. If there are still super mutants in the perimeter six months after that (logically, there shouldn't have been any in the first place, but well), then it would mean that the Brotherhood has officially retreated from the east coast. Which it hasn't.

    19 : Piper leaves her business Contradiction with : common freaking sense I get ready to search for this Valentine guy when Piper says that she wants to travel with me. Unsollicited. Out of nowhere. Ready to abandon her only family and her business to travel with a stranger, just after the mayor threatened her sister and said that her printing machine would be scrapped for parts. He even tries to litteraly kill her just a few minutes before that, by leaving her exposed to raiders, radiations and super mutants and denying her entry to safety. I mean... What if he actually closes the press ? Piper loses her business, her family and her home. For what ? Travelling with a random stranger, hoping to witness events for her journal which no longer exists ?

    20 : Robots have personnalities. Contradiction with : all fallout games. Speaking about Codsworth, why does he has a conscience ? Listen, I love codsworth just as the next guy. He's a really cool character, probably one of my favorite. I wouldn't mind if he was a broken toaster randomly blattering nonsense and movie quotes like he did in the pre war intro. But it's one thing to have a personable toaster. It's a different matter all together when my toaster starts to pass moral judgements, like when Codsworth « Likes » or « dislikes » my actions or start crying about his boredom, developping loyalty towards Paladin Danse or expressing grief for my family. Or even straight up hating me.

    Listen, he's a prewar domestic robot, made available to the middle class. He's not exactly the definition of an advanced, military AI, right ? Well, that's a shame, because military Ais are the only ones who developped a personality, in Fallout's history, and this process only took place years AFTER the war. And let's look at them : they're huge. We are talking about a building sized terminal using a ridiculously powerful CPU to even function. If an IA needs to move, it needs a human brain to do so. A human brain. You know, a CPU so powerful that even our own engineers cannot even imagine a computer that would come close to it.

    These intelligent machines are ZAX 1.2, a huge computer located in the glow who plays chess with himself. There is Skynet in the Sierra Army Depot, whose personality is very cold and limited. There are the robobrains and the Think Tank variants, who use human brains to feel emotions. And there's John Henry Eden in Fallout 3. And that's it. These are the only machines with a personality in the entire Fallout universe. Even the calculator, which is the most advanced robot of the whole pre war era, has the mind of an excel sheet.

    And yet, a domestic, cheap robot, has developped WAY more sentience and personality than anyone of these artificial intelligences. Does Codsworth use a human brain ? No. Does his CPU has the size of a building ? No. Does his OS is as advanced as a military IA ? No. Then how has he become sentient enough to developp a moral compass and emotions ?

    « Eyebots » were sentient too, you may say. Remember how Ed-E showed grief in Lonesome Road everytime you mention its creator. True enough. And true, eyebots were indeed a pre-war invention. But Ed-E was a post-war prototype, which, unlike its little floating comrades, was built using transistors, a technology that didn't exist when Codsworth was made, and the very POST WAR engineers were ASTONISHED at Ed-E having a personality. Which means that even the greatest minds of the post war Enclave viewed an intelligent robot as something rare, extraordinary and unexpected. How to explain that, if a domestic, cheap butler was way more « sentient » than Ed-E before the war ?

    21 : the Institute needed pure DNA Is Shaun's DNA pure ? Hell no. The boy was in his mother's arms, in sight of a freaking nuclear explosion before he was frozen. Now, let's remind us of some basic notions of physics : gamma radiations travel at the speed of light. At the very second you see the flash of a nuclear bomb, your body is ALREADY bathing in Gamma Radiations, which are responsible for causing DNA mutations. So, if anything, Shaun is more irradiated than most of the survivors who managed to hide underground when the bomb exploded. Especially when you see the glowing sea and realize how dirty this bomb was. And let's not forget that Shaun was fed by a robot powered by an atomic battery, who regulary changed his diaper and made his food, mostly made with highly dangerous isotopes. The whole thing, surrounded by nuclear cars. The whole thing, while being born from a guy who was on the front of a war that used massive chemical weapons, fat mans etc. Too bad for the Institute's experiments, I guess.

    22 : Synth can't remember the Institute, because security protocols wipe these memory out. Sure thing. Except for Glory, right ? She remembers the Institute very well. Except for Harkness, too ? You just have to tell him he's a Synth to remember everything about his past. Now, you're telling me than in sixty years, not a single synth was captured and tortured to give the Institute's location?

    So these are my problems with the lore, please correct me if I'm wrong about something because I'm just a stupid human and I can make mistakes, too! I'd love to hear your take on this stuff!

    Let it be here for a while...
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 29
  2. kraag

    kraag Stalwart Prick

    298
    Dec 26, 2015
    Anything that bags Bethesda over Fallout 4 is OK by me. Have a "Like" (c) Facebook.

    Oh and the 'robots having personalities' thing is just a little bit o' transhumanism propaganda. Lots of that in Hollyweird these days [not saying that shaping peoples minds to think a certain way is a good thing]
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2016
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  3. Radiosity

    Radiosity Writiosity

    464
    Sep 9, 2015
    Good thing I copied the text into a notepad file earlier. Useful stuff for my own retrospective series heh.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  4. Jogre

    Jogre It's all JO'Ger now

    Oct 25, 2015
    Are you doing one for Fallout 4 as well?
     
  5. Radiosity

    Radiosity Writiosity

    464
    Sep 9, 2015
    Assuming Fallout 3 doesn't sap my will to live, probably yeah :)
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  6. Ediros

    Ediros Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    847
    Feb 4, 2016
    I haven't read everything yet but still have a like good sir.

    I am going to enjoy reading this, just to further indulge myself in a pure hatred that I gained for Bethesda.

    The fact that there are so many lore breaking only proves that Bethederp does not care at all.

    At least there is something I can laugh at.
     
  7. 0wing

    0wing Все умрут, а я волномут

    Mar 23, 2015
    At this part I was almost sorry for this guy and definitely sorry for him when this wall of text was wiped. In communities like Reddit, is it common thing that you have to defend this game even when you're gonna bash it anyway? It's not like you have much freedom outside of praising shit.
    And a guy in a comment section with another wall of text are a little too agressive and emotional, almost fanatic.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 2
  8. TransgenderVaultDeweller

    TransgenderVaultDeweller "Fallout 4 adds to the lore"

    426
    Aug 14, 2015
    Is the Tagaziel on that Reddit Thread the same one on NMA?

    If so that is pretty fucking sad, Defending this piece of shit.

    Like, How can you say something like this. "Two of them, yes. And that's Obsidian's choice, whereas Bethesda went for something they're really good at, indirect characterization."


    With a straight face without laughing? Trigger Men, Gunners, Raiders, Super Mutants in fallout 4 legit have no fucking characterizations what so ever. Nothing that indulged deeply into who or what they are. Just here is a group of people to shoot and kill and thats it. I don't know how their group operates, Can't really have a non-violent confrontation for the most part and can't become definite allies or enemies (With of course the proper implement of a rep system) or ever get to see the benefits and consequences of joining one said group over the other. Raiders are just bandits, Super Mutants are Orcs, and the gunners and triggermen are the same as the raiders. Why bother even giving them a name if the vast majority of the time its shoot first ask questions later and only see a terminal MAYBE with a few sentences that say a few things like "We completed the bounty or shit is going wrong" Or something i couldn't really care less about.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2016
    • [Like] [Like] x 6
  9. Big No

    Big No Watch as I open and close this door

    611
    Oct 28, 2014
    The raiders have a bit of characterization. If the player lingers around groups undetected, they will discuss things with each other, joke around, etc. Some of them dicuss about a Michael Winslow-type guy who makes noises and they're creeped out by it. Their terminals give some depth in too. Depending on locations you've already visited will add in entries to some of their terminals reacting to the death of whoever you killed. It's a little bit of characterization for the raiders even if it's not much.
     
  10. Radiosity

    Radiosity Writiosity

    464
    Sep 9, 2015
    Probably written by an intern wondering why the hell they ever bothered going to Bethesda in the first place.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  11. TransgenderVaultDeweller

    TransgenderVaultDeweller "Fallout 4 adds to the lore"

    426
    Aug 14, 2015
    It's irrleveant because who cares when it never actually meaningfully affects story or involves the character in any real tangible way.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  12. Spacemunkey

    Spacemunkey Vault Senior Citizen

    Dec 4, 2015
    It's great to see how many people in that comment section have such insight into the inner workings of BGS, and what kind of time and budget constraints they're under.
     
  13. Radiosity

    Radiosity Writiosity

    464
    Sep 9, 2015
    Yep. Meanwhile, in my own version of Fallout 3, the raiders are an actual faction with quests and the ability to drastically affect the rest of the wasteland with some help from the player.
     
  14. Big No

    Big No Watch as I open and close this door

    611
    Oct 28, 2014
    I did state it wasn't much but I disagree that it's fully irrelevant. It would be worse if it wasn't there at all, it'd be like F3 where they got none whatsoever. It's interesting to see the Raider commune with each other in a friendly fashion to see the kind of things they discuss. Even though the player is forced to kill them (unless the player leaves), it's still nice to hear those little communication bits.

    It reminds me of Spec Ops: The Line a little bit. At one point in the game, you come across two soldiers who have to kill, no ifs or buts about it. They joke around, have a stick of gum and admire the landscape before them, humanization. But you have to kill them to proceed and it makes the player think about the people they've been killing, that even though they're trying to kill you, they still have their own lives and whatnot.
     
  15. TransgenderVaultDeweller

    TransgenderVaultDeweller "Fallout 4 adds to the lore"

    426
    Aug 14, 2015
    The poster Tagaziel bothers me with the gamepedia links he is citing the source, The dude doesn't understand that most of it is rectonns and that the website he is using in question is using new information that is from mostly Bethesda rectonns. Take X01 power armor, Enclave armor was made after the war by the shadow government called the enclave. (Sources Fallout bible and Fallout wikia) Yet, He post Gamepedia's retconn (The entire issues and argument in the first place) and then proceeds to try and correct the OP i presume but then fails since he uses contradictory lore that makes no sense and is contrived and hamfested. The retconn of that in question was saying the armor was a prewar proto- type before the great war and was worked on by post war military officials. Which is once again inconsistent and wrong and entire problem is that it conflicts with established lore.

    Then the fucking guy resorts to meme arguments trying to hand wave fallout tactics as uncannon but then uses fallout shelter? Get this shit, This guy is a admin on here, Nevermind been here since 2003 and honestly says this shit. Just wow. I'm not one to say fallout tactics is or isn't cannon now a days, But holy shit using Fallout:Shelter a freemenium phone app as lore conformations? I rather use F:BOS then use that lol.


    "It was. Fallout Shelter is very specific on this: Mk I is described as being used by PotUS bodyguards (which means it was prototyped), while the Mk IV model is explicitly described as an advanced post-war power armor, for a post-apocalyptic world. So, Mark I is the earliest variant, while the Mark IV is the one that developed after the Great War."

    That was his quote in question.
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 2
  16. DirtyOldShoe

    DirtyOldShoe Some kind of lucky

    Dec 15, 2015
    Do you happen to have a link to the op's reddit or know who it was?
    Edit: Nevermind, I hate reddit but figured it out :(
     
  17. Jogre

    Jogre It's all JO'Ger now

    Oct 25, 2015
    I can kinda understand why he did it tbh. He was responding to a statement which started with "If X-01 is pre-war", he was just clarifying that it was. And while maybe citing Fallout Shelter may not have been the smartest move, admittedly it adds a bit of backstory so, there's that.
     
  18. Big No

    Big No Watch as I open and close this door

    611
    Oct 28, 2014
    I know this is slightly off topic and all, but isn't The Vault the "better" wiki for Fallout information though? I use Nukapedia more than The Vault, but I've been told that The Vault is more dependable both lore and proof wise compared to Nukapedia.
     
  19. Practicat

    Practicat Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    411
    Aug 25, 2014
    I guess some elements of Fallout: Shelter are canon, similar to how the Battle of Jakku in SW: Battlefront is the only way it is visually portrayed outside of the Lost Stars book.
     
  20. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Wh ... why is Tagz defending Fallout 4 :/
     
    • [Like] [Like] x 2