There is something rotten in Fallout New Vegas

Discussion in 'Fallout: New Vegas Discussion' started by Brycen, May 30, 2017.

  1. Brycen

    Brycen First time out of the vault

    May 30, 2017
    You wake up in Doc Mitchell's house and your clothes are gone. The doctor mentions nothing of it and instead of offering you a clean set of clothes as soon as you can walk, he wants you to use the suspicious-looking "Vigor Tester", which strongly resembles a "love tester machine" you might still find in some pubs or bars. And you haven't even had the chance to pick or not to pick the "Wild Wasteland" trait yet. And even if you did pick the trait, it's still creepy.

    Doc Mitchell doesn't even look like a country doctor. There is an American photograph taken in 1948 called "Country Doctor", which is considered to be a classic of sorts. By comparison, Doc Mitchell is wearing something resembling a field hand outfit, yet you never see him work in the field.

    Then you have to sit through the psychological evaluation test; still no clothes. No, the doc waits until both of you are all the way to the front door before finally offering you a vault jumpsuit; because that isn't bizarre [and awkward] at all, right?

    Later, you encounter someone named Joe Cobb threatening to burn the town to the ground, unless they hand over a trader named Ringo. You see, Joe Cobb is part of a larger chain-gang called "Powder Gangers" and has a smaller gang ready to attack the town of Goodsprings.

    There is only one person known by the name of Joe Cobb in association with the word "gang", and that is Joe Frank Cobb (a.k.a. Joe Cobb):

    Joe Frank Cobb (November 7, 1916 – May 21, 2002) was an American child actor, most notable for appearing as the original "fat boy" in the Our Gang comedies from 1922 to 1929. Some sources such as the first edition (1977) of Our Gang: The Life and Times of the Little Rascals documented him as being born in 1916 or 1917.​

    Sounds pretty messed up considering how the character is portrayed in the game. Just a bizarre coincidence?

    Then we meet trader Ringo, whom Joe Cobb wants handed over or dealt with, and who is part of the Crimson Caravan Company, abbreviated as CCC.

    That couldn't be a reference to the outlaw Johnny Ringo of the Cochise County Cowboys (abbreviated as CCC), by any chance, now could it? Take a look at these video clips from "Tombstone": clip #1, clip #2.

    Then there's the Goodsprings water tower, which is right at the opposite edge of the town's cemetery. That means the water pipes have to go just underneath or between the graves' coffins!

    Also, there is the town's tutorial: it teaches you that in a situation where you have towns people and Powder Gangers, you can actually pick a side, only to throw the whole idea out of the window when you have a similar situation in Primm, and are forced to fight against the Powder Gangers. This is reminiscent of the situation in Fallout 4's Concord that many people have complained about, where you cannot side with the raiders.

    Even when siding with the residents of Primm, you cannot gather a town team like you could in Goodsprings. Instead, the game expects you to either go in commando style, when you're merely a courier, or ninja style, if you found enough Stealth Boys. Again, the tutorial lesson is completely thrown out of the window here.

    Then you arrive to Nipton and what you see there is complete nonsense compared to what Boxcars says really happened and what you see later in the game.

    For starters, why are there only Powder Gangers crucified when both, Boxcars and Vulpes Inculta, confirm that everyone had to draw lottery tickets? Did the Powder Gangers somehow end up getting all the crucifixion tickets? We know there were townspeople, NCR troops and "men of the Legion" too. And how did the Legion bring all those heavy telephone poles with them to the town? It looks like it would take many more men and time to bring them. Yet, a smaller group of the Legion somehow managed that and took everyone by surprise.

    Boxcars also tells you that the mayor got burned on a pile of tires. Yet, there are multiple piles of burning tires and skeletons.

    Eventually, you can enter the Town Hall, which is filled with the Legion mongrels and mines. Yet, much later in the game, once you reach the Cottonwood Cove and speak with Decanus Severus, there is the following dialogue:
    • Courier: I can show you how to disarm the NCR's mines.
    • Decanus Severus: That would be worth knowing, especially if we can then rearm and reuse them.
    • Courier: The trick is to rush the mine and press the blinking red light.
    • Decanus Severus: [SUCCEEDED] The light is a button that can interrupt detonation? {Humph!} We were too busy throwing ourselves to the ground to figure that out. To rearm the mine, we'd just press the button again - simple. The Profligates will regret that we learned this.
    If the Legion was clueless about the mines until that point, then who armed the mines in the Nipton's Town Hall? Complete nonsense.

    The same applies to the quest called "Andy and Charlie" where Ranger Andy sends you to check up on ranger station Charlie. There you find some dead NCR soldiers rigged with mines, and a door rigged with a tripwire and an explosive charge [trap]. There is also a recording supposedly with admission from the Legion that it is responsible. This is still a long way before you arrive to Cottonwood Cove and teach the Legion about the mines and powder charges. This is the dialogue about the latter:
    • Courier: I can teach you to make Powder Charges.
    • Decanus Severus: If they're more powerful than the Profligates' landmines, by all means show me how.
    • Courier: Study this as long as you need. <Show him the Powder Charge schematic.>
    • Decanus Severus: Tin cans, gunpowder, scrap metal, and duct tape? {Humph!} We won't have any trouble finding those ingredients!
    Again, complete nonsense at ranger station Charlie.

    Once you arrive to Novac, there is this bizarre quest called "One for My Baby". You get a tip from a town's lunatic about someone's wife being taken by the Legion, and eventually find a document incriminating Jeannie May Crawford. There is no way to know if the document is genuine or fake and someone decided to frame her. You cannot question Jeannie and cannot show the document to Boone. No, they expect you, like a creep, to convince Jeannie, in the middle of the night, to go in front of the dinosaur tower to get executed by Boone like in some kind of bloody ritual.

    And that's barely at the start of the game.
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2017
  2. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    I kinda don't get the point of this thread, tbh. New Vegas has plot holes, some questionable writing and tons of more or less obscure reference.
    Let me adress some of the issues mentioned, though, since I don't find some of them too outrageous:
    Clothes gone: Weird, but he did surgery on you, so not too much of a surprise that the player is in his or her underoos.
    Vigor tester: Gameplay mechanic. I don't like it, but the trend was to incorporate character creation into a playable section, so that's what happened.
    Country doctor: It's not the 50s. Why would Mitchell look like a country doctor?
    Vault suit: Can't have a game start without the vault suit, after all. Stupid, but I guess people felt it was a necessary thing.
    Cobb and Ringo references: Well, yeah. References. Nothing new in Fallout. Dunno if CCC was a reference, though, that might just have been a coincidence.
    Water tower in cemetery: Yeah, weird. Maybe the water tower isn't actually in use anymore (since they get their water from the springs) so the people of Goodsprings moved their cemetery up there for some reason? Dunno.
    Siding with the powder gangers: Yeah. Kinda annoying, but that's what you get when you have less than a year to develop a game.
    Nipton: Maybe they're yet to draw their tickets, and the powder gangers were just the first? As for the telephone poles, well, you can move them. And why should only the mayor get burned on a pile of tires? There are enough tires for everyone...
    Mines: Maybe the Legion have their own type of mines that work a bit differently? It would be a gameplay concession that for the player they appear as the exact same type. Still, odd thing.
    One for my baby: Never liked the writing of that quest, either.

    But yeah, New Vegas has tons of issues and little details that might have been filtered out in a longer development cycle, but that's not what happened.
    • [Like] [Like] x 2
  3. Brycen

    Brycen First time out of the vault

    May 30, 2017
    Presumably. However, Doc Mitchell mentions nothing about having to cut up your clothes, and he does not offer you a clean set of clothes as soon as you are able to walk. Waiting until he escorts you to the front door feels very awkward. Try picturing this in real life.

    "Vigor Tester" is one of those wacky "Wild Wasteland" type of things, if not outright creepy in the context of having just undergone a serious trauma, before you get a choice to pick or avoid the trait. And even if you do pick the trait, it's still creepy.

    Fallout games are said to be "retro-futuristic" with the retro parts being set in the 50's/60's.

    It was more about the timing of finally getting clean clothes rather than it being a vault suit.

    Considering that you are expected to shoot Cobb's brains out when siding with Goodsprings, it looks downright bizarre that the character is based on a kid's show, where the word "gang" means a group of friends, rather than an adult criminal gang. And CCC is too much of a coincidence when combined with Johnny Ringo.

    I don't know but I would not want to drink or eat in such a town, if they still used it.

    It picks a side for you and forces you to shoot in solo commando style. You're a mere courier who just went through a major trauma and brain surgery, so it feels especially bizarre. Beagle is barely a help if recruited and often just ends up alerting the hostiles. And if you're playing as a woman, Johnson Nash has no issue with sending you alone, especially to an all-male prison to get a potential sheriff. Just awful.

    But that still makes no sense. Why make it exclusive to Powder Gangers when the Legion dislikes the NCR the most?

    Boxcars, the witness, only mentions the burning tires when it comes to the mayor, not anyone else.

    It's the same type of mines. When you disarm them and pick them up, they are added to the same stack of mines used by the NCR.

    The longer time, however, would not fix the ridiculous Legion armor and their overall presentation. Even a typical wastelander can find a pair of pants and a jacket but the Legion cannot? Complete nonsense. Besides, the time they did have was not equally spent on major factions like the Legion and the NCR.
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2017
  4. Apollyon

    Apollyon First time out of the vault

    Apr 29, 2017
    "Go kill Mr. House. Tell me when you're done."

    No information, no weapons, no back-up. Nothing! Like it's just a chore.
  5. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    As far as I know, you as the Courier were the only one to have ever entered the Lucky 38 (and the only one actually trusted to even enter his floor) ever since Mr. House made contact with the wastelanders around the Vegas area. You don't need information because you already have all of it, and if you think you need more then Yes Man would have what you need.
    • [Like] [Like] x 3
  6. Jogre

    Jogre It's all JO'Ger now

    Oct 25, 2015
    Presumably that fellow wore those clothes because he had to appear formal when travelling from house to house.

    Doc Mitchell is the town doctor who everyone in Goodsprings knows. He doesn't exactly have to be as formal as the guy above.
    Ok, lets assume this wasn't coincidental(Even though "Joe" is a fairly common name and "Cobb" is a fairly common surname)

    It's not uncommon for character names to be references or injokes in games. And you seem to be overthinking this way too much, surely whoever wrote Joe Cobb could have just liked the character from a show, and drawn a connection with "Gang" and then decided to name the character after him. Like seriously, no need to delve to deep in to "Why is this guy I'm fighting named after a series of kid's comedies", just appreciate you got the reference.
    While it should have definitely been more accomodating to other playstyles, and not forced you to go in gun blazing, there isn't much of a reason to side with the convicts here.

    They've already taken over the town, and are trashing it for things to loot. They don't need outside help, and hell, you could even be there to break the siege.

    As for it feeling bizzare because you are a mere courier, you are assuming that just because this area exists, means the courier has an obligation to clear it.

    Hell, you get explicit warning from an NCR soldier not to go there. Don't want your Courier to be a wasteland badass?, Play it as though he accepted the warning and moved on to the next town instead.

    Also, every player character in the franchise is a combat badass able to do all sorts of cool shit, don't see why it's a problem when it's the Courier.
    You've already cleared out a town full of bandits by this point.

    You've demonstrated that you don't need no man to protect you.
    Different people know how to do different things.

    That interaction could be an example of you teaching Decanus Severus and his crew how to work mines, as opposed to Legion as a whole.

    Perhaps Frumentarii like Vulpes Inculta know this sort of thing because it is literally there job to know things, whereas your standard Legionnaire would likely haven't had much training in explosives.
    • [Like] [Like] x 3
  7. Risewild

    Risewild Half-way Through My Half-life
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    And that is why your character is not naked. It is wearing shorts and a shirt.
    What does this have to do with Wild Wasteland? It is a machine that analyzes your physical and mental attributes. After all, some love testing machines in the real world do analyze people's physical traits like moisture in the skin and stuff like that, it is not very farfetched that a machine in the future can analyze physical and mental attributes. I see nothing wrong with it.
    Actually that part is not related to the tutorial at all, the tutorial is Sunny Smiles teaching the player to shoot, loot and craft medicine. If i remember correctly, the old lady in the saloon even tells the player to not do anything about the Powder Gangers (so again not forcing the player to join a side).
    Also the Powder Gangers from one place are different from the other place, ones are more peaceful and the others shoot to kill because they are being sieged by the NCR and probably are on edge that they will be attacked soon. The Powder Gangers have different groups and they operate in different ways, some split from the NCRCF and tried to make it by themselves, and those are the ones that attack on sight because they just want loot.
    It would be nice to have an option to talk to all of them, but when you're a criminal and just escaped from a prison and who was imprisoning you is sieging your location, then I can excuse them for shooting any stranger that just arrives at the town you're cooped up first and ask questions later.
    Maybe they know how to arm them but don't know how to disarm them? Imagine that to arm a mine you press a big button in the center of it and just throw them to the ground, but to disarm you need to press a small blinking light instead... Most people would be able to arm the mine but I doubt many would be able to find out how to disarm it before it explodes.
    That is exactly how you arm a mine in FO3 and FNV, you press a big button in the center of the mine.
    That is wrong, there is no tripwire connected to a powder charge, there is a tripwire connected to a shotgun trap that will shoot two fire extinguishers that will detonate a bottlecap mine, not an powder charge.
    Not everyone likes to wear jackets and pants, remember that the legion soldiers make their own armor. They also pride themselves of being real tough and strong without the need for most stuff others rely on.
    You can frame others for that, you don't need to find evidence at all. Also you don't have to do the quest, you can just think it is stupid or savage or whatever and not do it. You can also show the document to Boone after the deed is done when he asks how did you find out she was the one.
  8. Kohno

    Kohno Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    Jul 30, 2009
    Some overanalyzing and overthinking going on here, or...?
  9. Ediros

    Ediros Vault Dweller

    Feb 4, 2016
    If you have got any complaints and solutions to problems, go check my thread New Vegas Redesigned. Depending on the suggestion, I may or may not add it.

    There are plenty of examples there already.
  10. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Dunno, whenever I'm at the hospital I rarely get to wear my clothes until I get out. We have hospital gowns for a reason, and I guess that's why you're walking around in your underoos until he lets you out.

    That's a bit harsh. It seems to be a sort of machine that tests your various mental and physical abilities, or at least the representation for it. Kinda makes sense to let a patient of whom you don't know if you messed something up during surgery do it. Doesn't Doc Mitchell even say that it's not perfect but all he has to see in what shape your body is in?

    It's not set in the 50's, though. Fallout is set in a dystopian version of the World Of Tomorrow, the future the people of the 50's imagined would be like. No reason for people to actually wear 50's clothing whatsoever.

    True, he should have given you the Vault Suit right after the last character creation test, together with the Pipboy to actually access your inventory. Bit odd timing, but it's more nitpicky to me.

    Well, Fallout does like subvert and twist innocent things. It's kinda what the whole setting is about.
    The Crimson Caravan existed before New Vegas, though, and it was only known as the Crimson Caravan back then. Maybe they added the "Company" specifically for that reference, dunno. How is that a complaint, though? That's some rather deep easter-egging, I like it...


    Well, they don't know that you had major trauma and brain surgery, and you kinda volunteer to do all that. Nobody forces you to do it right away.

    I said they started with Powder Gangers, not that they would only do it with Powder Gangers. Maybe the NCR are next, let them stew in their fear a bit longer? I have no clue.

    The Mayor is most important, I guess. Kinda overshadows that they might have also burned the secretary and the housemaid or the vice-mayor or whomever.

    As I said, gameplay mechanics. Having several different types of generic mines would be overkill. It's still a weird thing, though.

    Yeah, the Legion lacked content big time. One of my biggest complaints as well. However, the Legion styles themselves after the Roman Legions, so the uniforms make sense to some degree. Well, not really, but in context they do, especially since football paddings have been a post-apocalyptic fashion staple since forever. But I agree, there should have been way more time spent on the Legion.
    • [Like] [Like] x 7
  11. Brycen

    Brycen First time out of the vault

    May 30, 2017
    Something else worthy of note are the Legion quest "Arizona Scavenger" and its NCR counterpart "An Ear to the Ground". While the Legion asks for the NCR dog tags, the NCR asks you to cut off Legion soldiers' ears. The latter sounds downright psychopathic. This is bizarre, considering how the Legion is portrayed in general.

    This is what Josh Sawyer said about the NCR on his tumblr page:

    The NCR is a soupy mess because that’s how republics tend to be. There’s a lot of corruption, bureaucracy, political pandering, and petty abuses at high levels of authority, but those are things the Courier can steer like a big, awkward ship. You can influence how the NCR deals with various groups and get mostly the results you expect, but there are side effects because the NCR is still a soupy mess at the end of it.​

    The game also clearly favours the NCR in the presentation and amount of content.

    When some people asked why Doc Mitchell wasn't wearing a proper doctor's uniform and a lab coat, the excuse was that he is a "country" doctor. The photograph is an example of a real country doctor with regular clothes and without a lab coat.

    By comparison, Doc Mitchell is wearing some kind of 1700's and 1800's mix between a cowboy and a fieldhand outfit.

    Yea, just a "coincidence", I'm sure. And there is such a thing as a rotten joke. [It even looks like malicious intent.]

    The reason is they are Powder Gangers, which the tutorial taught you as being able to ally with. The reason is not to get shot on sight. And at that point, they haven't taken over the Vikki and Vance Casino yet.

    The main quest explicitly tells you, "Inquire about your delivery assignment with the administrator of the Mojave Express in Primm." The same quest later updates to, "Find Primm's lawman to get information on where your attackers went."

    At the same time, the Mojave Express Delivery Order explicitly states:

    Failure to deliver the proper recipient may result in forfeiture of your advance and bonus, criminal charges, and/or pursuit by mercenary reclamation teams. The Mojave Express is not responsible for any injury or loss of life you experience as a result of said reclamation efforts.​

    That depends on what kind of character you make during the character creation. Some are not combat-oriented. Plus, recent major trauma and brain surgery.

    Not if you used a Stealth Boy to clear an escape path for Beagle and then freed him. Besides, the prison has many more Powder Gangers than Primm.

    The Legion values discipline and military prowess. If part of the Legion knew about the mines, it does not make any sense that they would withhold that information from the rest, especially from a place like Cottonwood Cove, where Vulples Inculta has to go through to reach the Fort. And finally, Decanus Severus is Aurelius of Phoenix's second-in-command. In other words, he is a commanding officer.

    Wearing only an underwear and a shirt, while being barefoot, feels awkward enough.

    There is a reason it's called "love tester": it jokingly tests your sex appeal, love abilities or romantic feelings for someone. It's something that people might use in a pub or a bar after having a few drinks. The tests are for amusement purposes only and do not give real results. It's the kind of thing you'd expect from a Wild Wasteland perk. It feels completely out of place and even creepy to use it when you just woke up from a major trauma and brain surgery, without a proper set of clothes to boot.

    It's part of the tutorial area. That's why you get a pop up message that you are leaving it when you cross its boundaries. After speaking to Trudy [all dialogue options], it automatically gives you the quest to help Ringo. You would actually have to go out of your way to talk to Joe Cobb and "fail" the "Ghost Town Gunfight" quest to side with the Powder Gangers but it is possible. Also, forced or not, the point is about the "inspiration" for Joe Cobb and Ringo.

    According to the NCR dialogue in Primm, the only difference is that the Powder Gangers there were cut off from the NCRCF by the NCR outpost. Whatever the case is, when you talk to Johnson Nash, he mentions that the Powder Gangers want ransom and that Primm would pay it if only they had the caps. If the Powder Gangers are expecting a possible ransom payment for the hostage release, it does not make any sense for them to shoot on sight.

    [Now, Joe Cobb does tell you that the Powder Gangers in Primm will shoot on sight but it contradicts the fact that they are expecting the ransom payment. If they shot a potential hostage-release negotiator on sight, they'd effectively cut themselves off from the payment.]

    No because Decanus Severus clearly states, "To rearm the mine, we'd just press the button again - simple."

    I did say "explosive charge" instead of "powder charge" as means of general description rather than being pedantic. And it doesn't change the point about the Legion not knowing how to use or make anything from the same area of expertise (i.e. explosives).

    They are supposed to be a serious threat, not cos-players. Given the setting, a serious faction with military prowess would likely have some kind of tactical gear, even if it did have a wasteland wear-and-tear look to it.

    No, I was saying that someone could have framed Jeannie May Crawford with a forged document. If it was easy enough for the Courier to break into her safe, then it would be easy enough for someone else. You cannot investigate further at this point.

    Oh, and at one point Boone says, "No one in town knows that I know what happened to my wife. Best they never know. Or the Legion will be after me next." Yet, you never get a choice on the Legion-sided courier to let them know.

    At the hospital you already know that you have your clothes waiting for you. And they don't escort you to the hospital's front doors to get them back and get dressed.

    The machine it's clearly based on does not give you real results. They are only for amusement in an appropriate setting like a bar or a pub. Why would a doctor subject a patient to something ridiculous and creepy like that after a serious trauma and brain surgery? A light verbal joke during a conversation to cheer a patient up, maybe, but not something that has clear sexual overtones, especially when you don't have a full set of clothes.

    The 50's/60's is used as an influence. That would be the reason someone might wear clothes in that style. It would be more appropriate than the 1700's-1800's mix of a cowboy and fieldhand outfit the doctor is wearing otherwise.

    Before the character creation [once you are out of bed] would be more appropriate. I don't consider it to be nitpicking because you only get clothes at the front door.

    It's about things not being what they seem, in a rotten sort of way.

    They would know that you are alone and a woman, if you're playing as one. Moreover, you'd probably still have visible scars at the front of your head.

    Okay but that still doesn't make sense because the NCR troops were all dead on the floor in one place.

    I don't know. It seems more like they randomly placed the piles for a more dramatic effect and bigger smoke in the air. It's like there was a disconnect between the writer and the town designer.

    The dialogue with Decanus Severus points more toward the Legion not knowing how to deal with mines at all.

    They look more like cos-players. Yet, the game presents them as a serious threat. A serious faction would likely have some form of modern tactical gear, with the wasteland wear and tear.
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2017
  12. Risewild

    Risewild Half-way Through My Half-life
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014
    Haven't you been in any hospital after any surgery? You only wear a patient gown that is open on the back, you don't even wear underwear. Also you're in the Mojave Desert weather, I say it must feel much better to be in light clothes like a shirt and long underwear than already fully clothed. Also have you tried to dress someone who is unconscious and on top of that recovering from a brain surgery? Good luck with that. :lol:
    You are not in a hospital, you're in a house where the front door is just a few steps away, also if we think about it, why would the Doc give you your clothes before he was sure you are leaving? What if you felt dizzy or fainted? Then he would have to put you back on the bed and probably remove your clothes again. Not to mention that the Doc doesn't know if you're violent or a danger, so I imagine he would only want to give you his possessions if he knows you better.
    We don't know if in the world of Fallout there are love testing machines, never seen any. I really see nothing wrong with a diagnostics machine in the world of Fallout, makes way more sense than a magic baby's book in Fallout 3 and 4 for example. I would expect some stupid weapon like the Fat Man to be more Wild Wasteland material than a diagnostics machine in a doctor's practice to be honest :confused:.
    In the world of fallout we have computers with real AI (which we are not even close to have in the real world) that are so advanced and fast we have nothing close to it in our real world at all, and these computers are based on and look like the old Colossus. Colossus was a "computer" made in the WWII to decipher codes and that was it.
    Comparing real world technology with fallout technology is totally nonsensical.
    We don't know if the Legion made the bottlecaps mine, they never use bottlecap mines anywhere else and the way it is set up it seems they have no idea how to activate it and had to set up a complicated shotgun trap tripwire that will shoot some fire extinguishers that creates an explosion to make sure it would explode the mine, instead of setting a bottlecap mine tripwire. Doesn't sound like they knew how to set it up. Makes more sense they found the mine in the ranger station and decided to use it as a trap but not being sure it would go off by itself they set up a complicated trap to make sure it would go off.
    The Legion is the the opposite of tactical gear wearing military, they are mostly scavengers that craft their own armor and pride themselves of their own power as soldiers and not gear. This is stated in the game all over the place. Also the higher up in the Legion hierarchy, the better the armor is.
    You press the big button again, makes sense. Big button to arm as they already know how to, small button to disarm that they didn't know about, big button to rearm again. Remember that he doesn't say "press the same button again" or "press that button again", he doesn't specify which button to press. The way it is written can be interpreted in any way we want to.
    But there is no evidence anywhere that someone framed her, everyone you talk to says that she hated Boones wife and argued with her constantly (everyone, not just one person saying that to frame her), No Bark is an eye witness and while he says crazy stuff the core of what he says is always true and right, even if you ask Jeannie something in the lines of "What is the fastest way of leaving this dump" she will explode in an outburst that shows how much she hates people who say bad stuff about the town.
    Even in real life if there are any evidence against someone and no evidence against anyone else or evidence that the first evidence was planted, then the first person will be the suspect. Not to mention that has been quite some time since Carla had been sold, are you telling me that someone planted this document for so long and Jeannie never found it in her safe?
    Also if you didn't find the document and Boone asks you how did you find out who was the culprit, he will attack you when you give your answer unless you pass a high speech check.
    I see no problem with how people dress. Who am I to criticize how others dress in games or real world? We have people around who only wear rockabilly clothes today. Why would Doc Mitchell's have to follow a dress code? I really don't see why people have to tell others what they need to wear. :lol:
    In the world of Fallout women are as capable as men, there are no penalties of making female characters. What does being a woman has to do with anything? Also like it was mentioned before, you volunteer, they do not make you do it.
    Maybe the NCR tried to fight or run and got killed right there? Maybe the NCR guys were killed as to show the other people what would happen if they tried to run or fight, as an example. Maybe they already died on the crosses and got taken down and stashed there for disposal or as a message to the NCR when they went there next. Legion loves leaving messages to their enemies of their superiority and morals after all.
    • [Like] [Like] x 6
  13. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    So? The world of Fallout is not nice. The references are not nice, and bad things happen. No offense, but you seem a bit prudish and sensitive. May I ask how old you are?

    Pretty sure in the world of Fallout people have other things to worry about.

    Just chalk it down to gameplay mechanics and representation. The Vit-O-Matic is supposed to be able to test all sorts of things at the same time (all the parts of SPECIAL, obviously), some sort of advanced Lovetester. What's the problem with that? Apparently it can give Doc Mitchell some reasonable values for your stats. And it's certainly quicker and more approachable than having the player sit through extensive tests for each of the stats. "Alright, now please warm up and do a 1rm deadlift. Right, now come over here and do this flexing routine. Good. Now to the phoropter. Which is better, this... Or this? This... Or this?" Yeah nah, I'd prefer a classic character creation screen, but the Vit-O-Matic is fine. Setting your stats with a baby-book is weirder, IMO.

    The Legion is a silly faction to begin with. They style themselves after Romans and pretend to talk Latin. Tactical gear? That's really not what the Legion is all about, they're more like Spartans or Picts that went into battle naked to show how badass they were.

    A hospital is also not a tiny house in the middle of nowhere. I seriously don't quite get why you're so hung up on this, though.

    It's all he has, simple as that. He's a doctor in a post-apocalyptic frontier town, he's probably happy that he didn't kill the Courier. The machine in New Vegas apparently DOES give accurate results, though, so why bother?
    Also, again, you appear to be a bit overly sensitive in this case. You might be the first person ever to get creeped out by the introduction and suspect "sexual overtones" in that part.

    Again, the game does not take place in the 50's. It's not "retro-futuristic" in the sense that it's the 50's with future technology (like Stubbs: The Zombie), it's based on the vision of the future they had back then. They didn't envision people to look the same a hundred years into the future, they envisioned weird-ass jumpsuits and PVC clothes and stuff. That's an aspect that I severely dislike about the 3D-Fallouts, I think they dropped the ball on that. All the 50's style pre-war clothing is just wrong in my opinion. In Fallout 1 people mostly wore rags and simple clothing manufactured later. The only pristine pre-war clothing we see are the jumpsuits worn by the Vault dwellers, and I guess some of the armor types if you want to count those in. By the time of Fallout 2, with civilisation slowly coming back, more finely made clothing is made, like the police uniforms in NCR and suits and so on. And in Fallout 3 people are again wearing rags of pre-war clothes, with tons of pre-war clothes around. Ugh. And I think the style is just off. They're basically just 50's and 60's clothes, not stuff from 2077. The original Vault suits, now those looked actually retro-futuristic. Spandex jumpsuits, that's what it's all about.
    Also, New Vegas does add more of a Western/Frontier type of vibe to the whole post-apocalyptic scenery, so the field-hand-look is kinda fitting in my opinion. I mean, he's a doctor in a tiny frontier town, why would he wear a labcoat, anyway?

    You might be the first person to even notice it, so yeah, it's nitpicking.

    Indeed. That has been part of Fallout since the very beginning. The Church of the Cathedral being a front for a genocidal mutant army led by a horribly mutated monster. Iguana Bob selling, well, not iguana for sure. Vault City being an idyllic place to live, based on slavery and xenophobia, and so on.
    Again, the world of Fallout is not nice. It is rotten, maybe even rotten to the core. Maybe Fallout isn't for you...

    So? There is no -4 STR penalty for females in Fallout. It has been well established that in Fallout, men and women are equal in combat.
    As for the scars, there aren't any unless you put them there yourself.

    Eh, I have no idea. Maybe the NCR troops fought back and were killed in battle, while the Powder Gangers were captured alive? I don't know, probably just an oversight.
    Could be. On 4chan they'd now say that it takes some weapons-grade autism to notice that...

    Yeah, shoddy details and pacing. Oh well.

    See above. Think of them as a roving slave army, not a modern military force.
    • [Like] [Like] x 8
  14. Brycen

    Brycen First time out of the vault

    May 30, 2017
    There is something else:
    • Getting shot twice in the head is potentially a reference to the twin towers.
    • Benny is potentially a reference to bin Laden.
    • Great Khans are potentially a reference to Taliban.
    • Courier 6 is potentially a reference to SEAL Team 6 that went after bin Laden.
    • "Don't Tread on the Bear!" is potentially a reference to "DONT TREAD ON ME" on the Gadsden flag.
    • The "Ace of Spades", also known as the "death card", is potentially a reference to the following:

      In the Second World War, the soldiers of the 506th Parachute Infantry Regiment of the American 101st Airborne Division were marked with the spades symbol painted on the sides of their helmets.

      [. . .]

      Some twenty years later, a folk legend about the ace of spades being used by American soldiers during the Vietnam War was popularized. Supposedly, US troops believed that Vietnamese traditions held the symbolism of the spade to mean death and ill-fortune and in a bid to frighten and demoralize Viet Cong soldiers, it was common practice to mockingly leave an ace of spades on the bodies of killed Vietnamese and even to litter the forested grounds and fields with the card. This custom was said to be so effective that the United States Playing Card Company was asked by Charlie Company, 2nd Battalion, 35th Infantry Regiment to supply crates of that single card in bulk. The crates were often marked with "Bicycle Secret Weapon". However, no evidence of this practice actually being used during the war exists. The ace of spades, while not a symbol of superstitious fear to the Viet Cong forces, did help the morale of American soldiers. It was not unheard of for US soldiers and Marines to stick this card in their helmet band as a sort of anti-peace sign.​

      NCR Ranger concept art:

    • The NCR's practice of cutting off their enemies' ears is also potentially a reference to Vietnam.
  15. Risewild

    Risewild Half-way Through My Half-life
    Modder Orderite

    Jun 14, 2014

    A human head has nothing to do with the towers mate. You have to be pretty conspiracy theorist to even think a two here and there reference the same thing.
    Benny's looks, personality, motivations and actions has nothing to do with bad bin. :eyebrow:
    Great Khans what? The Khans have been in the Fallout franchise since the first game and their history, appearance, methods, beliefs, life, etc has nothing to do with the Taliban... Also they actually hate Benny...
    Courier 6 what? Yes, a Seal team of one guy that gets wiped out by a guy he had never seen while delivering a package to that guy's boss? Makes so much sense now, how couldn't I see it.
    So? Fallout 1 and 2 games were based on the Cold War + Mad Max. It's a Fallout tradition to leave small easter eggs in the name of quests and stuff.

    I had my suspicions but it seems like you reached mostly troll level now or conspiracy theorist :eek:.
    • [Like] [Like] x 8
  16. Black Angel

    Black Angel Grand Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus

    Mar 21, 2016
    So @Brycen is NMA's new troll?

  17. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    That would totally make sense if Bin Laden didn't die a year after NV was released. But that's some proper weapons-grade autism right there, pardon my 4chan.
    Anyway, yeah, Ace of Spades and Don't Tread on the Bear and the ear-cutting are all references. What's your point?
  18. Prone Squanderer

    Prone Squanderer A bit of a Sillius Soddus.

    Jan 3, 2016
    The entire segment with Doc Mitchell is a reference to reeducation. Whoever the Courier was before the start of the game is destroyed by us altering them via SPECIAL. Goodsprings in general refers to fluoride and other mind-altering drugs in the water supply.

    I've got my tinfoil hat on, hip hip hip hooray!
  19. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    New Vegas is actually a successor to MKUltra and the Polybius machine, trying to program us so we don't feel weird when we're in our underwear and using a lovetester.
  20. Brycen

    Brycen First time out of the vault

    May 30, 2017
    Who suggested that you should have been fully dressed while unconscious? Unless there is a need for post-surgical physical examination, there is no reason why you were not offered clothes and shoes as soon as you were out of bed.

    The tests performed by Doc Mitchell do not require being in your underwear. The "Vigor Tester" machine only requires squeezing its handle or placing palms on its pads. The next test is a psychological evaluation. None of them require being in your underwear and barefoot. Therefore, it is complete nonsense to not have been offered a set of clothes sooner. And when combined with the "inspiration" from the "love tester machine", it is especially creepy.

    In a hospital situation, you get your clothes back as soon as you are done with possible post-surgical physical tests and are ready to be released. Moreover, they don't make you use a "love tester machine" after you have just suffered a major trauma and had a brain surgery.

    The doc would know if you were dizzy or fainted if you couldn't walk to the "Vigor Tester" machine or while getting dressed. He should have offered you a set of clothes as soon as he saw that you were successfully able to walk. And possessions have nothing to do with a set of clothes. Besides, even if you pick the violent options during the psychological evaluation, he still gives you your possessions back.

    We know by looking at Bethesda's own tool called G.E.C.K. where the "Vigor Tester" is referred to as "lovetester" in the script. :)

    Besides, knowing the inspiration for the machine, we also know that it does not give real results. Therefore, it is completely nonsensical and creepy, considering the circumstances.

    As you said, it is a pretty elaborate explosive trap for a faction that, according to Decanus Severus, did not know how to deal with standard mines at this point.

    Why does the NCR struggle with a faction of mostly machete-wielding cos-players with an imitation armor, designed mostly for melee combat and ancient warfare? By comparison, the NCR has relatively modern military and tactical gear, ranged weapons and access to Vertibirds. The NCR has large numbers too. In fact, that's the reason given for why they beat the Brotherhood of Steel. It is ridiculous and complete nonsense.

    There is only one button. [The thing in the middle is a gear, not a button.] And this is what he actually says:

    Decanus Severus: To rearm the mine, we'd just press the button again - simple. The Profligates will regret that we learned this.​

    Besides, how did they know how to arm them in the first place? Whoever taught them would likely have the necessary knowledge on how to disarm and rearm them as well, as is typical in a military. And if they experimented, then chances are they'd know how to disarm them too when it's only a single button. Either way, the Nipton Town Hall and Ranger station Charlie mines are complete nonsense.

    There doesn't have to be. It's enough that it is possible. Manny Vargas didn't like Boone's wife either. Knowing that Jeannie disliked her is not an evidence that she sold her to the Legion. In fact, someone may have used that public knowledge as an opportunity to frame her. No-bark claims he saw "shadowy folk", he didn't say he saw Legionaries. At the core, there may have been shadowy men in Boone's room and the lobby but who knows who they really were. They could easily be the men who could have possibly framed Jeannie.

    It isn't about telling people what to wear but about it not making sense for the setting where the "retro" part is supposed to be roughly inspired by the 50's and 60's.

    This isn't about women's capabilities but the risks associated with being sent alone to an all-male prison. Do I really need to explain how stupid that idea is? It isn't about being made to do it, it is about the lunacy and stupidity of the suggestion itself.

    Both the NCR and the Powder Gangers were supposed to be caught with their pants down while using services of the local prostitutes. And even if they did try to fight back, why didn't the Powder Gangers? And if the Legion wanted to send a message to the NCR, it makes even more sense that some of them would be crucified as well. Again, the situation in Nipton is complete nonsense, especially when compared to Vulpes Inculta's and Boxcars' accounts of what really happened.

    No offence but that is nonsense. It's not about the world of Fallout not being nice but about using a kid from a kid's show about friends as an "inspiration" for a group leader of what is portrayed to be a murderous criminal gang. It is lunacy and it is moronic.

    The same goes for using a murderer who shot unarmed people as an "inspiration" for an innocent trader, trying to hide from the aforementioned gang. It is moronic even in a dark setting like Fallout.

    I don't like it and I'm letting others know about it. This is the appropriate forum, after all.

    That doesn't make it any less awkward or invalidate the point.

    The whole basis for a "love tester" is that it does not give real results, it is for amusement only. It doesn't matter how "advanced" you make it. And no one suggested long and tedious tests. Instead of "Vigor Tester", there could have been an actual computer terminal with necessary devices attached. Something more serious, not idiotic and not creepy for the occasion.

    They don't really style themselves after ancient Romans, the styling is superficial at most. One has to wonder how a bunch of mostly machete-wielding cos-players cause such a major threat to the NCR that has access to military and tactical gear, ranged weapons (more so than the Legion) and Vertibirds. It's ridiculous and badly-written.

    A hospital doesn't keep you without clothes or footwear when it's unnecessary, like for a psychological evaluation test. It may also mention something about having to cut up your clothes, if it was an emergency. At least you have a chance to ask about it when conscious. A hospital also does not it make you use a "love tester" machine, especially after brain surgery. I don't know why the distinction is not clear for you.

    All he has does not give real results. The game only makes it appear that it does but it is complete nonsense, knowing what it is based on. One does not have to be overly sensitive to find it ridiculous and creepy under the circumstances.

    And I'm definitely not the first person to question the introduction at Doc Mitchell's house. There have been discussions about this before. See "Fallout: New Vegas Headscratchers - TV Tropes":

    I may be missing something, but... where are the Courier's clothes when they start the game? In the opening cutscene, we clearly see the Courier (or at least I think it's the courier, it's the knocked out person next to Benny as the Khans dig a grave) wearing clothes, what appears to be a "field hand outfit" (the same clothes Doc Mitchell wears), and a cowboy hat. So why does s/he wake up naked? Did the doc remove the clothes for an operation? Why would he need to do that for a gunshot to the head? And why didn't he give them back?​

    Also, see this discussion thread:

    How does cutting up your shirt make it any easier to perform brain surgery?

    Unless you were wearing your pants on your head. . . .​

    As for "Vigor Tester", most people are unaware that it is based on a "love tester machine" or they would have recognized it in numerous "let's play" FNV videos on YouTube.

    This person, for example, keeps asking about what happened to her clothes during the "let's play".

    It does not have to take place in the 50's. There is, however, a clear influence from the 50's and 60's. That's how the Fallout games are described, anyway. That's reason enough for the clothes to be influenced by the 50's or 60's style. That's why a lot of the pre-war clothing looks similar. As for Western/Frontier type of clothes, the Fallout games are not said to take influence from the 1700's or 1800's. When it does, it becomes too much of a Western. Someone even described FNV as "Red Dead Fallout" before in reference to "Red Dead Redemption".

    As I've clearly demonstrated above, I'm not the first person to notice it.

    This isn't about grittiness of the Fallout setting, this is about the lunatic and moronic "inspirations" for things, where good and evil are reversed. I don't like it but it doesn't mean that I can't review it.

    This isn't about equality in combat but about the suggestion of sending a woman to an all-male prison. Do I really need to explain the insanity and stupidity of such a suggestion?

    A pretty major oversight. They were all supposed to have been taken by surprise and captured.

    Well, there is a reason why 4chan has been summarized as lunatics and downs before.

    [UPDATE: Since "4chan" was brought up, see "live from 4chan":

    LOL! :) The robot's design does, indeed, look stupid.]

    All part of bad and lazy writing.

    I don't want to because the way they are presented is ridiculous and nonsensical.

    See this discussion thread titled "Anyone else think the Legion is ridiculous?":

    There are several obvious examples in History upon which Caesar's Legion is based, the Roman Empire being the obvious one. There are also the Aztecs, The Persians, the Mongols, the Zulus, the Napoleonic French Empire, etc. All of them were militarily aggressive empires that would conquer neighbors, and then draft the conquered nation's military forces into its own army. However, in FNV all legionaries are shown to be suicidally committed to the Legion. This is contrary to actual History, where it has been demonstrated time and time again that draftees for the most part do NOT willingly throw their lives away just because their new masters command it. Most conscripted nations usually just "go through the motions" and when confronted by pointedly capable opponents, surrender at that first opportunity.

    Soldiers of the core nationality -- Romans, Mongols, Persians, etc. -- often fought as fanatics, to the death. Not so the draftees from conquered nations/empires/tribes.

    Additionally, the Legion is portrayed as VERY hostile towards the use of higher tech weapons (which makes them futuristic Luddites: In terms of domestic production, that might be acceptable, but certainly NOT when facing opponents armed with Space Age weapons. The Aztecs disintegrated when facing off with the Spaniards armed with a few score matchlocks, a couple cannon, and a handful of horses. Legionaries armed with machetes, some slug-throwers, and a few laser rifles would literally melt under the attention of a squad of Brothers armed with Gatling lasers. Furthermore, the Legion soldiers would KNOW that outcome was inevitable. There's nothing soldiers hate more than the thought that their lives are being literally thrown away with no hope of success. The leaders' staunch refusal to use readily available superior weapons would definitely de-motivate the rank-and-file Legion grunts.

    Lastly, Caesar MUST realize that his mighty empire is doomed to disintegrate as soon as he dies. He's obviously enough of a historian to recognize the similarity to the Macedonian Empire, and what became of it when Alexander died. Knowing that without him, there is NO unifying force to hold all those defeated tribes together, one wonders what made him think that the cost of all that death and destruction was a worthwhile investment. If he did believe it to be so, just _what_ was it that made it worthwhile?​

    And there are numerous discussions on the internet about it and why the faction's concept is complete nonsense.
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017