Aliens Colonial Marines - saddest shit ever?

Discussion in 'General Gaming and Hardware Forum' started by Crni Vuk, Feb 14, 2013.

  1. Stanislao Moulinsky

    Stanislao Moulinsky Vault Fossil

    Jul 16, 2009
    That has more to do with the timeline of the original movies, not the characters or the universes being incompatible. Which is what I was talking of.

    Absurd comparison. Predators have been hunting centuries before the events of the first movie and absolutely nothing hints that they will stop in the future. Which, surprise, is when the Aliens movies take place.

    I see what you mean, but I still think that it's not impossible to make a good movie with them together. Sure, it probably would be much more of a "simple" action movie, but that's not an inherently bad thing.
     
  2. Wintermind

    Wintermind Vault Senior Citizen

    Jan 21, 2011
    You could totally have a solid Alien vs. Predator Horror thing. Maybe more actiony horror like Aliens was, but it's totally doable. Doesn't necessarily need to be set in the future, but it would probably be easier.
     
  3. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    if you want some good xeno movie then it is. People forget where it all started:

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDRLtgr2T9E[/youtube]
     
  4. pipboy-x11

    pipboy-x11 It Wandered In From the Wastes

    161
    Jan 6, 2004
    By this logic, nothing stops wookie from falling into time wormhole and popping up in Skyrim. Or name me a single reason - why the Empire couldn't attack Earth in Star Trek universe? Nothing stops it. Nothing - except IP. Because wookie and the whole Star Wars franchise are owned by Lucas. Skyrim is owned by Bethesda. Star Trek is owned by CBS. And this is the only reason why their characters are "incompatible", while aliens and predators, both owned by Fox, are somehow "compatible" - this is what IP owners made people to believe. By introducing bullshit "easter eggs" into Predator 2 (which sucked donkey balls anyway), and so on - when they decided to put a new twist to already dying Predator franchise and milk more money from it by making absolutely nonsensical crap like Aliens versus Predator movie. Predator died right after the 1st movie. Aliens died right after the 2nd one. But Fox continue making new nonsensical stuff for more than 20 years already, kicking two dead horses to beat more money out of them.

    BTW

    From here
     
  5. Stanislao Moulinsky

    Stanislao Moulinsky Vault Fossil

    Jul 16, 2009
    You are drawing again absurd paralels and comparisons.

    The alien movie depict a sci-fi human race but it tries to be "realistic"/believable about it. There are not things as duplicators, people going around on alien worlds with conveniently breathable atmospheres, laser guns, absurd clothes and things like that. Star Trek and Star Wars instead don't match because they have different kinds of tech/sci-fi style and settings.

    You keep saying that Predator in the alien universe don't belong because it's set in the future (which boils down to having a different tech level in this case), so if a Predator 3 movie was a prequel that showed how the predator obtained the trophy fintlock pistol at the end of the second movie ("Raphael Adolini 1715") that wouldn't belong either because it has a different tech level and is set centuries apart from the first movie?

    He say "in my mind" and says nothing of the two series being incompatible for setting reasons. Wether an AvP crossover is a good idea or not is a different issue.
     
  6. pipboy-x11

    pipboy-x11 It Wandered In From the Wastes

    161
    Jan 6, 2004
    No shit. An absurd idea, like Aliens and Predators in a single movie/game, deserves nothing but absurd comparisons.

    Star Trek: Enterprise is very scientific, people use pressure suites, no duplicators, etc. Does it make it finally compatible with Aliens movie?

    Care to elaborate?

    Nah, I say they don't cross because 2nd Predator movie and further are just cheap stupid flicks that are boring and make no sense at all and should have never existed in the first place. I barely watched 2nd one, can't even remember it (like I can't remember the AvP movie except that something was blown up in the end) and would never even bother to to watch the 3rd one, if it ever existed. There is only one Predator movie for me, the original one, there were two Aliens movies - 1st and 2nd. And they do not intersect at all. The rest is Fox milking two franchises which are long dead and stink. Predator 2, Prometheus and all that stuff - it just doesn't deserve to be seriously discussed and used as an evidence of something.

    Oh. So YOUR opinion is the only one that is real and not subjective somehow? Hello, dude, all our opinions, our views etc. ARE subjective - be it James Cameron, me or you.
     
  7. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Well, one is SciFi (albeit not very good or rather, „hard“) and the other is pure phantasy in a futuristic setting.
     
  8. Stanislao Moulinsky

    Stanislao Moulinsky Vault Fossil

    Jul 16, 2009
    And WHY is that? You keep saying they don't belong but all your "arguments" boil down to "they are different IPs" and "they are centuries apart". And both points are moot.

    Depends on how believable the tech is. Haven't seen it.

    Do I need to? All sci-fi is the same to you as long is sci-fi? Star Trek originated in the '60s, Star Wars in the late '70s. The former is the "spandex suits-everything clean" kind of sci-fi, the latter the is "used future-space fantasy" kind.




    Do those look even remotely similar to you?



    So since P2-3 and AvP1-2 were bad there's no way another P movie can be good. Ok.

    Never said that. Simply pointed out that Cameron explicitely said that it was his opinion, which generally means that the subject isn't so black and white.

    No, they aren't, it depends on the subject. Discussing if the settings of the two franchises fit together is hardly so subjective as you make it out to be. Wether those two franchises should stay separated or not, THAT is subjective.
     
  9. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    yeah but pretty much no one who worked with the Alien movies was very happy about the AvP project, which includes Sigourney Waver and Ridley Scott.

    Sigourney Weaver kicked off the Alien franchise with her unforgettable role as Ripley, but when it comes to the intergalactic beastie’s current incarnation in Alien vs. Predator 2, she’s far less enthusiastic. “That whole thing makes me heartsick. That’s Fox’s decision to throw that legacy into the… whatever.”

    http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Sigourney-Weaver-Heartsick-Over-Alien-Sequels-7873.html

    Here’s a promo for Prometheus of Guy Pearce as Peter Weyland speaking at TED 2023. The promo was shown exclusively to audiences at TED 2012, a convention about “Ideas Worth Spreading”. An interesting thing about the promo is the date, as the upcoming film is set in 2085. The biggest news about this promo is that Ridley Scott doesn’t consider Alien vs. Predator as canon.
    http://nerdreactor.com/2012/02/28/p...ump-on-alien-vs-predator/#Z1FMFtG3cQCSI82J.99

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TQLRMIGA2I[/youtube]
    I believe there is no at Fox who doesnt know that it sucked. Hard. And I am glad it did. Shows that not all hope is lost.


    I think outside of games and comics they should have never mixed Aliens and Predators.

    I am happy that someone mentioned Star Trek and Star Wars because if you ask me, there is almost as much difference between the Xenomorph franchise and the Predator movies. Both movies might be on the surface a more realistic take on Horror and Science Fiction. But if you cant see the vast differences in the theme and experience of both Alien and Predator movies then I am sorry I cant help you. And this is also why Predators sucked compared to Predator 1. There are people today working on those projects which have either no conection to the previous movies or cant spend enough time on those projects because Someone like FOX is putting a lot of pressure on them.
     
  10. Stanislao Moulinsky

    Stanislao Moulinsky Vault Fossil

    Jul 16, 2009
    With the AvP project (i.e. the horrible movies) or the idea of AvP in general? The difference isn't small, you know.

    *sigh* Am I explaining myself so bad? Of course the feel of the two movies are different and an eventual good AvP would be a compromise (all crossovers are, really), it's just that that the idea can work because the settings don't clash that much (do I have to add IMO just in case?).

    It's not like Robocop vs Terminator, THAT is a crossover that makes no sense since the settings just don't mash.
     
  11. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    no, you do explain your self well enough, but you assume a compromise with your own words would be acceptable, which it isn't.

    Look, is there a chance if the stars align right and somehow Jesus was born again as moviemaker that he could make an Alien vs Predator MOVIE(!) that didn't sucked? I am sure. He could also turn Coke in to Pepsi (guess where that line is from), but its not gona happen. The chance for that is so small its not significant. And the fact that there have been 2 utterly garbage movies proves it. The issue is that the people responsible for the Alien movies would not touch such a project really, artistically you can not gain here much without making it a very simple action flick. That might be "ok" for Predator, in the end it was not a very complex or deep movie. But that simply DOESNT WORK as far as Xenomorphs go. Making them target practise for the Predators kills BOTH movies.

    A Predator needs human opponents, something he can overpower easily. Thats why Predator 1 worked. Arnold gets his butted kicked and kills the Predator but barely survives. This doesn't work that well with Xenomorphs.

    Xenomorphs are not just target practise. Scenes like the sentry guns in Aliens might give you that impression. But the creatures in Aliens are the same kind of Alien we have seen in the movie Alien by Scott. They are not just some kind of animal as far as intelligence goes. And even in Aliens the marines realize that quite fast. A single Predator kicking the but of 23455121243 Xenomorphs will never end in a good movie - and no I don't say that because I am biased as creature I like the Predator as well. The book which was based on the Alien script even gives the idea that Ash (the android on the Nostromo) might even had contact with the creature, maybe even a form of communication once. But the movie never mentions it and the book was never clear about that part. You can not make an AvP movie without making the Aliens one way or another a generic "I crush your skull with my teeth" monster. Thats the compromise. And its a shit compromise.

    Why was AvP made? Fox might tell you "because they fit", some might have even believed that. No clue. But as far as both movie experiences go, they don't. Both Alien(s) and Predator aim for a completely different experience. I can enjoy both Star Trek and Star Wars a lot. But I would never get the idea to mix those. The same is true for Alien and Predator.

    It has a reason why there are not many good crossovers. Because honestly, mots of them end like a simple Werwolf meets Frankenstein or Freddy vs Jason garbage. On top of my head I cant even think of any good crossover with movies. Because honestly, when do crossovers happen? Jup. When the original movies lose their appeal, interest. When creativity and air is sucked out. And somehow people believe if no one likes Chicken and ice-Cream anymore it would a great idea to throw a roasted chicken in some bowel with ice cream and it suddenly tastes better. A few might like it maybe, but if people already lost their interest in Chicken and Ice cream then there is nothing you can do here.

    I am a huge Alien fan. But even I have to agree here ... there is not much you can do with the Alien franchise anymore as far as movies are concerned without causing a huge damage to it. Why? Because Aliens are not like Star Wars where you can create a lot of side plots. Xenomorphs are a very specific kind of creature and the ONLY creature we have seen. Ever. In the movies. Star Wars is interesting because of that huge universe, with all its possibilities. It started with Luke but it doesn't need him to be interesting. Many agree that after Aliens particularly after Alien 3 the franchise was finished. Star Wars was never really finished. It had an happy end yes, but it still has a lot of potential making stories about the new Republic, rebuilding the Jedy Order or to see the past of Vader (if done well). The Alien franchise doesn't offer the same freedom in creativity. And thats one of the reasons why many of the new projects including Prometheus felt a bit disturbing and out of place despite the fact that Prometheus had a few other problems as well like really bad dialogues and ridiculous acting.

    And before someone mentions certain comics, remember, many of the comics play in the same universe, just because Spiderman and Iron Man work well together doesn't mean its a cross over! Big difference! Its the same universe.

    Actually the Idea in general, because both started as movies. Comics or even games are really just a VERY small part of that. Side kicks if you want. They are neither Canon nor anything else etc. Not to mention both comics and games create a different field and experience. AvP1 for example as game had barely any story at all, yet it was effective because its fun playing a character, killing stuff with a pulse rifle or ziping around as alien in the hall ways. A different form of entertainment with its own rules. Same for Comics. Doesnt work so well with the movies though.
     
  12. Stanislao Moulinsky

    Stanislao Moulinsky Vault Fossil

    Jul 16, 2009
    Eh, that's interesting because some time ago I had a discussion with a friend regarding the depiction of the aliens in...er...Aliens, and how they were supposedly misrepresented. Ok, maybe in Aliens they should have shown a little more sense of self preservation but the idea people have that the xenomorphs are this incredibly cunning creatures has more to do with Alien being a slasher movie, its physical abilties and the playing field (he has acid blood, they are on a spaceship) more than anything else.

    Think about it:
    -Brett doesn't notice the alien hanging placidly on the ceiling and is taken by surprise. Effort of the alien: 0.
    -Dallas goes searching for the xenomorph in his hideout. When he sense him he goes straight towards Dallas, which panicks and pretty much throes himself in his arms (and mouths). Effort of the alien: 0.
    -While preparing the escape pod Parker and Lambert don't notice the alien being there (or it silently entered the room? it's not clear). The alien decides to play with its food (Lambert) for a while apparently sure that the other creature can't/won't hurt him. Effort of the alien: 0.
    -While Ripley activates the self destruct system the alien enters the escape pod and takes a nap. His sleep is so heavy that he doesn't even wake up when the escape trembles violently leaving the main ship and the warp field. If Ripley hadn't been in space or he hadn't had the acid blood he would have been easily killed.

    The xenomorph intelligence as hunters is overrated.
     
  13. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    If you dont like them as creatures you could have told that a lot easier with much less words.

    The movies shows cleary that they are inteligent creatures. And exactly the points you mention are things where I actually see as rather interesting.

    Do people with weapons have an edge over such a creature? Of course! I doubt a single alien might have such a great chance against a full platoon of marines equipmet with the latest technology. But this isnt how the situation was on the Nostromo. Its more like your trucker on the street facing an very agressive species trying to kill him. they cant use weapons on the Nostromo without killing them self.

    Now what the situation would be like if there have been marines on some planet like in Aliens but with only one alien is a different question, certainly interesting. Would it behave different compared to the Alien on the Nostromo?

    Its all speculation.
     
  14. aenemic

    aenemic Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Jun 4, 2008
    jumping to conclusions much? not really a good ground to base arguments on.
     
  15. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    yeah a bit harsh I know, maybe to harsh.
     
  16. Stanislao Moulinsky

    Stanislao Moulinsky Vault Fossil

    Jul 16, 2009
    Pretty much. I love Aliens, it's one of my favourite movies ever and the xenomorph is a fantastic creation.

    The aliens are intelligent, no doubt about it, but I always found funny the notion that Aliens misreprenseted them when they were pretty much the same. That's it. I didn't mean anything else.
     
  17. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    thats where I cant follow you, you mean ... misreprenseted, because they are after all some kind of monster? Just because it seems like the crew was killed without any effort by the creature? I mean what did you expect it should do? Recite Arthur Schopenhauer and killing the crew with boredom? Its an horror movie nonetheless and as far as you ask me its not even so much about the gore or the creature but more the interaction between the crew what happens when ordinary people (space truckers!) are thrown inside a very hostile and unexpected situation. Thats why its so interesting as movie. It feels very real compared to the space-horror movies before alien.

    I believe both movies alien and aliens show well enough the intelligence of the creature. I think something the movie shows is that in both movies the humans always underestimate the creature, the Nostromo assumes its "like an animal, every animal fears fire right?", the second time its just a "bug hunt" like many other bug hunts before. And in both movies the people have to wake up and its to late.

    The only part I never understood is why a ship like the Nostromo with 8 crewmen has only ONE escape pod with one hypersleep chamber ... well.

    I think as far as the capabilities of the xenomorph go both movies don't show what it really can do as individual. I would say the crew of the Nostromo doesn't even pose any kind of threat to the Xenomorph. The moment they realize that they decide to blow up the ship.

    But as far as I believe both movies do a great job of showing at least a potential for intelligence. First. It might seem like there is no effort, which is true, as said the crew has no chance. They have no clue what they deal with unless its to late (after Dallas was killed), when Brett moved out to search for the cat they still believed what they hunt was not bigger then a cat ... Ash as Android explains them that they have no chance against it. He might be lying though who knows? What you see as "the creature sleeping" on the escape pod/ship is in my eyes the try to remain silent as long as the pod isn't out of danger. Was it going for that pod anyway? Because it knew that Ripley would head there? Just coincidence? Why didn't it attacked Ripley right away in the small ship? Tired? Unlikely. Or maybe waiting that she starts the ship to get out of range for the explosion. It probably had no clue how to operate the ship. Its just speculation but that is what I belive. As far as the skills of a "hunter" go I would say yes, the movie doesn't really show that, but this is because the crew of the Nostromo is not a "good" prey. Remember they believe to hunt the Alien.

    The Second movie is doing a better job in showing the intelligence. Though I would be curious to see what an single xenomorph like on the Nostromo would do if it has to face 20-30 Colonial marines armed with all kind of weapon and technology on some space colony where its blood isn't such a huge threat like in space. At least as group it seems the Xenomorphs are capable of reasoning. Cutting down the power before an attack for example or changing their direction of the attack. They never show any form of diplomacy though so they definitely are not the kind of intelligent being like Humans. - Something that is interesting though is why they chose the most sensible part of the reactor core, the cooling plant as their hive. Ripley tells gorman that they could not use any heavy weaponry there without doing so much damage of risking to blow them self up! Did the creatures chose that place because it was underground? Or because of the heat or cooling? was it the closest they had to some athmosphere of a hive? Or even just coincidence. I believe they chose that position on purpose. A position the enemy could not attack without loosing the station and eventually blowing him self up which is what pretty much happened. The Queen also knowing how to use an elevator even though I believe she never did that before is something that I see as pretty smart as well.
     
  18. Stanislao Moulinsky

    Stanislao Moulinsky Vault Fossil

    Jul 16, 2009
    My friend (and, I saw, other people in other forums) think that the xenomorphs in Aliens are "too careless", "they don't care for their self preservation", "they throw themselves to the enemy", "they don't employ any particular hunting tactics" and so on, always with the stated implication that the xenomorph in alien wasn't any of that.

    Which, as I said, it wasn't. It's the slasher format of the movie (and maybe faulty memory?) that makes him look that way. He was certainly intelligent, but in that movie he act exactly the same way the xenomorphs do in Aliens.

    I think it had three chambers. I think... After all at the end Ripley, Lambert and Parker were going to leave on it. Or maybe their intention was to flee on the pod without using the one chamber? Man, I have to rewatch it.

    The one thing I'm sure of is that it couldn't support four people, which is still absurd for a crew of eight. :S

    Edit. Checked and you can see two chambers at the same time on the screen. I guess behind the pillar in the middle of the pod there was the third, but still not enough for the whole crew (maybe they planned to sleep together? :P ).

    He was definitively sleeping. Ripley becomes aware of his presence because he "drops" his hand in the open and moves around a little. Ripley lets out a scream and flees in the closet while the xenomorphs placidly returns to the fetal position and doesn't move again until she blows air/steam in his face.

    Wether he entered the pod out of sheer luck or because he undrstood the situation is an interesting question though.
     
  19. mobucks

    mobucks i get such a kick out of myself Orderite

    May 22, 2010
    Read "The Book of Merlyn", section on ant colonies, for the best interpretation of Xenomorphs.
     
  20. pipboy-x11

    pipboy-x11 It Wandered In From the Wastes

    161
    Jan 6, 2004
    This is the human logic - the logic of species where everyone is almost equally essential from the point of reproduction. I was always under impression that xenomorphs posses collective insects-like behavior. Ant soldiers don't care that much about themselves, they are just soldiers, they don't breed and therefore don't need to be careful. Soldier xenomorphs don't breed either IIRC, so it's perfectly natural for them to be just a cannon fodder. Their job is to kill and to die. If they don't - it's just a waste of reproductive energy.

    Hmm, this thing has killed everyone on the ship without being hurt once, IIRC, and then sneaked into the life-boat. As to some charges (while attacking a lone enemy, btw) - you can afford not playing ninja once in a while if you have an armored hide like this, teeth like those and a strength of a lifting crane.

    I'm not sure about the 1st movie, but it was probably a young queen on Nostromo. More intelligent and more careful - since she is the one who does all the breeding, she needs to be. This is obviously the case with the queen in Aliens - she is clearly more intelligent than soldier entities who just charge the enemy or attack from an ambush. Also collective species can behave more intelligent in packs, where a group has better reasoning than a single entity (unlike humans, lol). That's, I believe, is what we see in Aliens when xenomorphs outflank marines through the ceiling, and what we see in Aliens 4, where they sacrifice one of their kind to make a hole in the floor.

    So a random soldier xenomorph isn't really that bright. But xenomorphs, as species, are quite intelligent.

    Well, you could give ST:E a chance then. It's a sci-fi movie where "sci" is for real, IMO. Falls in line with Aliens, Firefly and Battlestar Galactica in terms of believable technology, depicted physics, etc. It's not a soup opera "men in tights in space" anymore, more like a single puny Terran vessel trying to survive in the ocean, full of big sharks. Acting, character development are way better than in older ST series too.