Another Bail out.

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Crni Vuk, Apr 28, 2020.

  1. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Should large corporations which have made huge profits over the last 10 years get another bail out, like 2008 but even with less strings attached in how to use the money?



    It is fair to talk about government support (so much for free markets I guess ...) to companies with a large work force which are in dire need of support. A virus is comparable to a natural disaster so there is a good case to be made here. Tourism and economic life are at a minimum right now or completely seized. There are millions of jobs and livelihoods at stake.

    However, we also see many medium and particularly small business being hit incredibly hard by the lock down right now much harder than most companies because smaller business are often required to use their savings to get trough weeks if not even months to get trough this time. They often do not have the capacity, knowledge or simply the leverage to negotiate with their landlords and debt holders.

    It is also very cynical right now that we see a lot of discussions (like here in Germany) about loans being hand out to smaller business to cover their costs as it simply takes an a very serious issue and pushes it further in to the future. It is expected that many entrepreneurs will file for bankruptcy in the coming weeks and months. But there are still some ideas discussed on how to deal with it and what can and should be done. But it is a difficult situation. Particularly with all the bureaucracy coming with support like social welfare. Particularly when you're an entrepreneur like an artist or free-lancers.

    Which brings us back to the large 100-Billion dollar bail outs of which a large number is going to big corporations. Corporations which have made very huge profits over the last few years and used a substantial number of this profit to buy back stocks, handing out bonuses and paying dividends to share holders rather than actually saving up money. It seems like many corporations have not really take the experience from the crash in 2008, preparing for another potential crash of the economy.

    So there are several arguments to be made here I guess. One is to let them simply drown. Separate the wheat from the chaff. Those companies that survive, will be better off and have proven to be sturdy. This sounds maybe interesting at the first glance and a large corporation filing for bankruptcy isn't necessarily the end of the world. But then you have the issue of mass unemployment and well some services might be required after all. - To big to fail if you want. But it's an option I guess.

    The other one is to simply bail them out again. No questions asked. Pour more and more billions in to the market and the economy. Very similar to 2008. Which is what some propose now. However this is also something that has it's own issues. While money doesn't seem to be much of a question there is the issue of overseight. Just handing out money to large corporations while smaller business owners and people which are laid off right now are struggling is an issue.

    Then there is also another option, which we see in Denmark and a few other nations in Europe. Large corporations are only allowed support by the government if they follow certain guidelines. No tax evasion by parking money in tax heavens. No bonuses to managers. No dividends to share holders. If they follow those rules, they can file for government support and eventual bail outs. There are also a few that say companies that want support should guarantee to keep their employees. It seems to be astonishing to some that you have companies which send their workers in to short-time work unemployment benefit while handing out bonuses and paying dividends to their share holders while smaller business do not know how to pay their rent for the next month.


    So yeah. Let us see what happens.
     
  2. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Non Binary Pod Person Staff Member Moderator

    Apr 1, 2005
    No. They should not.

    /endthread
     
  3. SilverStarApple/Epsilon7

    SilverStarApple/Epsilon7 Still Mildly Glowing

    236
    Oct 27, 2017
    It just isn't right that so many governments around the world decided to bail out big companies who didn't need it. They should have bailed out the small companies who did need it.

    Corrupt government is a cancer that kills the freedom Capitalism is meant to be.
     
  4. Whoever is bailed out, are the people who run the government in reality, and not just in name.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  5. SilverStarApple/Epsilon7

    SilverStarApple/Epsilon7 Still Mildly Glowing

    236
    Oct 27, 2017
    So uh... What happens in this thread?

    Do we all take turns saying "Fuck megacorps" until someone who loves megacorps shows up to call me rude names?
     
  6. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    I think hating megacorps is the one thing everyone can agree on.
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 1
  7. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Non Binary Pod Person Staff Member Moderator

    Apr 1, 2005
    I want everything to be owned by one corporation. Just one giant corporation.

     
  8. Perfect...
     
    • [Rad] [Rad] x 2
  9. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Didn't we once had this guy who argued everything would be better if we abolished all governments and run everything trough private business?
     
  10. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Probably. But I think those kinds of people don't like the concept of monopolies and megacorps either, and prefer smaller companies and free markets with competition. They argue that in a healthy market such monopolies couldn't arise, and that instead they are the result of too much government intervention.
     
  11. SilverStarApple/Epsilon7

    SilverStarApple/Epsilon7 Still Mildly Glowing

    236
    Oct 27, 2017
    That's right. Every time a corporation abuses laws that are selectively applied to different societal groups in different manners, it can only do so because the law is such a sham in the first place. We live in a society where megacorps don't have to follow any of the bullshit regulations and red tape nooses designed to choke small businesses to death. We live in a society where "The greens" wanted our industry exported to countries like India and China who don't give a fuck about pollution, they got their way, and that didn't create utopia like their magical-thinking said it would so now they're just pissed for the sake of being pissed. We live in a society where dumbfucks think raising the taxes and choking freedom out of the world will either make the world a better place magically, or piss everyone off so much that they magically join the violent dumbfuck faction and try to take over using solutions proposed by an ideology a teenager with google could disprove (rather than join any other violent faction with better solutions and more legitimacy). The government gets away with stealing money from the people and mismanaging it in the name of bloated and malfunctioning social programs filled with corrupt bribe-takers.

    What society needs is something like the Ten Commandments, only modernized. 1984 warned us about an oversized government with an incomprehensibly large and ever-increasing tangle of contradictory laws that can declare anyone a criminal at any time for any reason. We need simple, easy-to-understand laws with no room for interpretation or reinterpretation. No loopholes, no lawyer fuckery, and no "Obama shouldn't be made to testify about what he got caught doing while being President, because that would set a scary precedent" bullshit. If Obama gets caught drunk driving he should suffer the same penalties as someone the government hates would if he was caught drunk driving. Fuck the class system, who you are and what "rung of society" you come from shouldn't matter. Fuck the manufactured "Celebrities" and fuck every fake-news megacorp media outlet that said "You must love Celebrities because they are your intermediary with the Rich class". Fuck that, and fuck the megacorps that make billions tax-free and then donate to commie fake-charities and commie terrorist groups and commie politician campaigns to damage western civilization for personal gain.

    Your ability should determine your place in society, and your ability should determine the riches you gain. Knowledge should be free and open for everyone on the internet, schools should be privatized and held to strict competitive standards, teacher's unions should be destroyed, and colleges/universities should be converted into buildings you visit to prove your independent studies have made you qualified enough to get this or that magic piece of paper that lets you get a job. Rich people have no business getting a higher-quality education than the poor, fuck the government's broken sham of a public schooling system designed to keep the poor down while wasting taxpayer money. Fuck the race rioters and the race baiters and the race hustlers who make a living from muddying the water and confusing idiots about what issues society does and does not have while biting the hand that foolishly feeds them. Fuck them and fuck their "CHAZ" commie commune that ran out of food and got taken over by a warlord in under 24 hours. Christ, that's a world record speedrun for some sort of category. Historians will laugh about that for centuries. But seriously, America was founded on ideals those criminals exploit for profit. Anything the government can do, a private business paid to do it by the government or a local authority can do it better, cheaper, and faster. Fuck the medical monopolies that make millions for the drug patent-holders at the cost of lives. Limit the scope of government so that it has two jobs: Protecting the borders (just in case some other country tries invading) and enforcing the laws equally upon all citizens, rich and poor alike. Fuck classism, fuck the commies who just want to rule over a system they'll corrupt even further, fuck the race rioters for the same reason. Meritocratic Free Market Capitalism now!



    I've had an idea, by the way.

    What if businesses had two choices:

    Either you declare your corporation to not be a person in its own right, meaning it does not get taxed. However, it does not have free speech, it can not publish ideological propaganda, it can not sue people for ripping it off or infringing on its IP or slandering/criticizing it, and it can not donate to any ideological "Charities" or political campaigns. Direct theft is still illegal (no stealing from the local store) but "Indirect theft" (ripping off Mars Bars and producing a cheaper alternative or making your own store next door to the existing store) is A-OK.

    Or, you declare your corporation a person in its own right. It has rights, and it has responsibilities. It gets to buy free speech, the right to sue people as a company, and so on. It is heavily taxed, its contributions to political factions are taxed even more, and its contributions to political campaigns must be overseen and restricted for the same reason Johnny down the road can't donate his kid's college fund to ISIS.
     
  12. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Funny enough, in Nineteen Eighty-Four Winston makes it a point that there is no actual law against anything. Like, in an official sense, since there's no legal system per se. There's only what the party decides to be the truth and the reality at any given moment.
    I guess you could say that the Party itself, because it doesn't even try to represent the people and instead treats governance and power as goals in and of themselves, can be seen as kind of a corporate entity more than a government, or rather, there's no distinction between the two.
     
  13. SilverStarApple/Epsilon7

    SilverStarApple/Epsilon7 Still Mildly Glowing

    236
    Oct 27, 2017
    You're right about 1984's laws, but that kind of "The law is what I say it is right now and I seek power and continued rule for its own sake" isn't exactly copyrighted by any one group. Not corporations, or even crazy political loons. "I want power and I will weaponize your confusion and my own to get it" is marxism's gimmick, but other totalitarian ideologies also seek power for the sake of power. They just aren't as common.

    While we're all on the subject, you know Somalia? That turd-world shithole full of pirates and warlords? Fun trivia, locals there can "Invest" in a pirate group by giving it weapons/ammo in return for a cut of the profits. I hear some lady over there gave a pirate gang an RPG, and got a lot of of stolen shit/Somaliabucks as a reward for her investment.

    One more thing...

    Sony was recently fined 3.5 Million Dollars after unlawfully refusing refunds under Australian Consumer Protection Laws.

    Who do you think that 3.5 Million Dollars went to? Probably not to the people who wanted refunds. The company would have likely lost more money overall if it had given out those refunds.

    These numbers seem big to individual people like you or me. But to megacorps, that's barely a slap on the wrist. If they can make money from a scam than they lose when they get found out and fined for it, they profit. Governments are too weak and soft when it comes to punishing megacorps. And too draconian when it comes to punishing small business owners for breaking bullshit laws/"Guidelines". There are people in American prisons right now for the "crime" of trying to put food on the table for their families by starting their small businesses back up.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 12, 2020
  14. Morgan_

    Morgan_ Putz

    Jul 3, 2020
    Small and Medium businesses can't get loans, extensions, etc. Big businesses, even with money in the bank, get dumptrucked with billions. After the small/medium businesses can't get assistance big business' jump in and buy them up. Apparently we've had a few hundred thousand small business close during the pandemic.

    Welcome to the new gilded age.
     
  15. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Half-way Through My Half-life

    Nov 26, 2007


    _______

    As far as bailouts go... It's built into the fiat economy, by design.
    The economy follows a sawtooth pattern, one of slowly increasing highs, and immediate drops.
    Companies tagged as 'too big to fail' get bailed out—for the good of the children; (...but think of all those jobs that will be lost, families hurt, if this company—or bank, is allowed to fail). :whatever:
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2020
  16. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Non Binary Pod Person Staff Member Moderator

    Apr 1, 2005
    The local Creek tribe got 200 million from the government to give out to the tribe. Now Trump is talking about another Stimulus finally when Republicans were not big fans of such a thing. I really need to erase some credit card debt Mr. President.
     
  17. Aurelius Of Phoenix

    Aurelius Of Phoenix Psued.

    666
    Mar 9, 2018
    If you're gonna force companies to shut down you better be ready to write out some checks to the companies and the people you put out of a job, bitch. You can't be all "OH WHAT'S WRONG I THOUGHT YOU GUYS WERE FREE MARKET" when it's a situation that was forced on these companies by the government. The government interfered to shut these companies down so they made it their responsibility to pay for it. I hope they write more checks and not just to some crumb bum Airlines company.
     
  18. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Non Binary Pod Person Staff Member Moderator

    Apr 1, 2005
    Really though I filed this paperwork without supporting documents but I am going to go email those tomorrow when I use the scanner at the tag office. $1,500 is more than the government fucking gave me. Fingers crossed for the Creek Nation Free Bucks. All they want is my VA disability paperwork and my ID roll number.