Bethesda planning to revisit Skyrim paid mods after Fallout 4's launch.

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by AgentBJ09, Jul 19, 2015.

  1. fred2

    fred2 Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    Nov 2, 2013
    A good explanation of why I think that this won't effect free mods, which are mostly built through community effort and support. Initially some might try to earn a buck, but I am betting that most of those will not be able to lift off or loose support and surpassed by other free project with (zealous) community backing behind them. (to fight the power)

    Payed mods are best suited for professional 3d artist that make some horse armor dlc...

    On that note, lets give a shout out to NMA hard working hamsters moderators and other people who keep it going without looking for compensation.
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2015
  2. AgentBJ09

    AgentBJ09 Vault Dweller

    Jul 9, 2015
    Have to disagree with you there. The 'Subscribe' functionality hasn't helped modding very much; unlike the Nexus, much less any other manual site, when updates come in on the Workshop mods you're subscribed to, you have to get them, plus there's that danger of the mod suddenly refusing to work with other mods because of incompatibilities. If the system of paid mods had been in place still, if you were out of the 24 hour refund period, your only two recourses were ask for a fix or downgrade the mod through other sites to get it working again. Something that has to be done with GTA: SA to allow certain mods.

    Steam being the sole platform for modders to receive legal funding, considering it works as DRM in its own right for many games that only release there, is an issue that shouldn't be ignored. I'm not aware of any industry besides gaming where consolidation was looked at as a good thing, much less left unquestioned.

    "Something is better than nothing" is not the kind of thinking that should be applied to this system, should it come back. Especially if Bethesda is so willing to take 40% revenue from mods that optimize or fix their games. That's rewarding poor work, something no business or customer should allow.

    As for the 70% they take from PC sales, they take 80% of console sales. 10% goes to the console platform holder, IE the royalty fee, and the last 10% is split between S&H (1-5%) and the store where the game was sold (5-9%). That's why you won't see a single store that sells only new games. The share is too small to support any business that tries it.

    Now, apply that to the old paid mods system, where you only get 25% of the revenue per sale, and then have to wait for $400 worth of your mod to be sold before you see any of it in real cash. Unless you're going into that system expecting to jump through hoops to get paid pennies on the dollar, it's not going to be worth it to attempt to get paid. (As George from Super Bunnyhop has pointed out, YouTubers get paid much more per video, and those files are much larger than the mod files Valve hosts.)

    I'm reminded of how ID Software functioned during the 90's when DOOM was big. Tim Willits was a map maker they hired onboard because of his work, and since then, he has had his hand in every major ID IP. Plus, let's not forget Team TNT, the group behind Final DOOM, and what John Romero said a while back about ID's plan in the 90's to pay modders a percentage of the revenue they brought to ID's own modding site.

    With all the optimization mods floating around for Fallout 3 and Skyrim, I'm curious why Bethesda doesn't hire the people making them.

    Plus, once you start charging money for your work, an expectation of quality comes with it. Hence why so many were decrying the lack of curation the old system had, and rightly so.

    The rampant content theft within just two days was justification enough for it.
  3. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    Can't argue with a brick wall. Not even gonna bother to try.....

    Yeah, that's why I alluded to that opportunity earlier in this thread, because as far as I'm concerned, the way it works right now is excellent. Could it be better? Probably. But certainly NOT by what Bethesda's proposing.
  4. fred2

    fred2 Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    Nov 2, 2013
    No retard. They aren't taking away anyone's freedom to mod, only your delusion that you can make profit out of it without them having a say. In fact the engine, tools and support for modders has been expanded yet again, as it has been with every title.

    Edit: also your words seem to imply, that the freedom to mod depends on your ability to monetize upon it. Which I find insulting to the many good people who for years has been spending blood sweat and tears to enrich our experience with the originals.
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2015
  5. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    'Kay, let's break down this temper tantrum line by line...

    The insult right out the gate. Congratulations, your entire post just lost 50% of its potential credibility.

    And that's me being generous. Some would go as far as 100% because the level of restraint required not to be a dick is very low.

    Oh yeah, you're missing a comma there.

    Labeling my assessment a "delusion" without addressing the likelihood of your points having any such potential? Danger for hypocrisy, right there. As for the actual *ahem* "statements" being made separate from the additional laid-on insults (following an opening insult- I'd say that's another 20% lost potential credibility?)...

    Paying someone for a service, legally, requires forms and agreements and more. It's a standardization of a process. Where once there was no structure, now there is structure to follow. The DEFAULT process is "do whatever I want", but by changing it to this more rigid system, whereby you must follow certain expected criteria, you suddenly cannot do that anymore. Now there is a system you must follow. That is the DEFINITION of a loss of agency and freedom. Now you MUST abide by a system, whereas before you could do whatever you wanted- you could be free. This system, also, has either unintended consequences (if you're a naive optimist) or is deliberately designed to cause engineered consequences.

    Let's say, for the sake of a RANDOM example pulled out of thin air, that you were to copyright an extension of your legal ownership to an element you previously had no ownership over. This means you can now monetize on this thing you previously did not own! Hurray! All's good, right? Uh, well no, actually. ALL the items that now fall under this new ownership have been rendered illegal by the copyright acquisition. They are now completely subject to the new owner's whims as to whether they shall be prosecuted for copyright infringement (which they can TOTALLY do, by the way, despite the fact that the creations preceded the copyright; it's how copyright law works i.e. copyright law (like all laws) is bullshit) or whether, by "their good graces" they can be "allowed" the "freedom" to continue existing. Sound familiar? EXACT same language you've been spouting. "Allowing" this (which was already fully allowable to begin with) and "freedom" that (which WAS free to begin with, but is now monitored and managed and controlled- the OPPOSITE of an unrestricted (free) process) and so on.

    Okay, maaaaaaaaybe my example wasn't so random. Maaaaaaaybe I TOTALLY (and deliberately) picked a specific example. MAAAAAAAAYBE that's because it was one of Bethesda's MANY attempts to control everything under the sun. Well, in that sense, while it was certainly coercive of me, it was absolutely appropriate. Because naivite needs to be grounded into the dirt like the flighty nonsense that it is.

    So, you have a thing, a thing which there are no restrictions and which anyone is free to do what with that they please. Then you have a company with ownership of material that is freely done stuff with come along and drive their proverbial stake into the dirt, saying that this territory is now theirs. NOW you can get paid for your work! Yippee! Well, NOW you MUST go through them. NOW you're subject to their standards, whether you want to be part of their system or not. NOW if you no longer participate, despite the fact that would simply constitute a lack of involvement and nothing more, you are labeled as noncompliant and subject to legal repercussions. NOW, you get in line, or you're fucked.

    This is, of course, ENTIRELY subject to the new legal owner's whims. This doesn't HAVE to happen that way. Naturally! They can be gracious and leave you be, because you've opted out of their system, so ALL action that needs be taken is to simply provide no benefit, not actually add any form of punishment. Except..... this is BETHESDA we're talking about. They WILL take action and fuck over everyone who doesn't bend the knee to them, because they DO take this direction currently. This entire EFFORT to monetize mods is just another power grab for them. It's textbook Bethesda. They are as predictable as predictable comes. So while it's TECHNICALLY not guaranteed that a monetizing system for mods WILL result in this distopian depiction I have laid out for you, it's PRACTICALLY a certainty, because we know the entities involved.

    A comment deviated completely from any sense of relevance to this topic.

    THIS is where the word "delusion" is much more appropriate to levy, because... WHERE you conjured this fantasy implication is beyond my wildest imaginations. Ergo, that's some serious delusions, right there. I imply NOTHING of the sort. I DO imply the EXACT opposite of that. I even OUTRIGHT STATE (not imply) that a monetizing process, by virtue of its legalization branch, invariably contains an ILLEGALIZING aspect to it, which is a restriction of freedom. Ergo, freedom to do whatever you want is INDEPENDENT of a monetizing process. The complete opposite of your fantasy of what I must have implied.

    Again, your pathos (appeal to emotion) as a response to your conjured OPPOSITE of the truth is irrelevant. As clearly explained above, you spun the obvious 180 degrees and made out the things I was saying into the exact opposite. So, in effect, if you think the opposite of what I'm saying is reprehensible, then that means what I AM saying is praise-worthy? Congratulations! You weren't technically wrong with this one statement, you just didn't understand that. I AM out for the benefit of those who poured their "blood sweat and tears" into these pet projects, after all. Being left to their OWN devices is what's best for them. NOT being forced under the auspices of the likes of Bethesda.

    Care to continue?
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2015
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  6. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Freddie is a complete Bethesda apologist. I don't you should even bother discussing at all.
  7. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Shoot me again. I ain't dead yet. Staff Member Moderator

    Apr 1, 2005
    The only thing worse than a Bethesda apologist is a Bethesda fanboy. Both should be drawn and quartered.
    • [Like] [Like] x 1
  8. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    I do it for the sake of enlightening everyone else, not for his sake. Same reason I ever pick bones with the likes of ******, *******, **** ***, and others: because despite the fact I know those individuals are beyond help and cannot be convinced, no matter how hard anyone tries, if you DO address their wild claims, in this public forum, you are presenting your case for everyone else to read, and arrive at their own conclusions towards. If you're the one who makes more sense, then with hope, more people will follow in your footsteps, instead of following the road to madness.

    Same reason I bicker with you, on subjects I KNOW you're not gonna budge about. *COUGH*AnythingBatman*COUGH* It's NOT to convince you, although the possibility that you MIGHT come around is a bit of a bonus. Unexpected (and I'm sure that's reciprocal) but delightful in such an event.
  9. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    I just can't really ever see this working well in the end. And I am not thinking about this from the users. I think there are also simply to many legal issues. I mean, modds have changed a lot in the last no clue 10 or 15 years. People made a lot of their content by themself in their free time. Now you can also see in games like Skyrim at least work that has been done by a modeler. There are also people which take even things from real life to model them for the game, I have definitely seen a few armor/weapon pieces on the Nexus for Skyrim that also exist in real life and can be bought on some website. I guess not everyone will be happy to eventually see his contend monetized. I can imagine that many errors will be made here ...
  10. fred2

    fred2 Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    Nov 2, 2013

    Ironically, that is exactly what i was thinking while writing that reply to your brick comment. But unlike your page long butthurt, I didn't care enough to expand upon it. Also nice grammar potshot, you certainly outdone a foreigners 3rd language who had no real practice since school..

    This whole topic is about Beth making use of Steam Workshop new functionality, allowing mod makers the opportunity to earn money. Something that currently modders had no LEGAL means to do, as seen by Beth stamping on donation campaigns.

    Despite of how you feel about this, obviously it is A method for modders to make money. And considering this was the only change discussed here** you did appear to be tying "freedom to mod" with modders freedom to make money. Which is silly, and hence my reminder --that actual "freedom to mod" has been expanded once again-- to stamper your little tirade.

    ** If you had some concerns about unintended consequences, you failed to express them at that point.

    I love discussion advocating consumer rights and rant about IP/copyright laws that screw with what we want, who doesn't But indeed, lets ground this theoretical mambo jambo into dirt:

    1. Like most things in life, there are no true freedom. And liberty to mod has always been subject to copyright laws.
    2. Modders are always subject to the game content license agreements. Which basiclly states that users can share and modify for further use in the games, but can't sell anything based on it without the IP holder explicit permission.
    3. Modders who are creating content using Bethesda's modding tools are subject to even further restriction on top of 2#. (educated guess, and i'll bet my ass off that its rather draconian)
    4. There is no such thing as "do whatever I want". There are many companies that do not bother to enforce their licences in full (usually when there is no benefit, like with communities that fly bellow the radar), but obviously that doesn't grant you any legal right.

    So while it is understandable why you would want to maintain the current status quo, and afraid of unintended consequences. That doesn't change the factuality of my initial point you steamrolled over in your outrage.

    Also I am pretty certain (can't find the article) that Beth said that offering your mods on steam for sale, wouldn't limit your ability to offer them elsewhere for free.

    So basically you support the idea, however, feel that:
    a. it would be better for us if this option were implemented on other platforms as well.
    b. disagree with revenue-sharing formula.

    a. Indeed having options is always good, however, I doubt that they will expand modding support beyound steam workshop. I am not certain why Beth use Steam as their sole digital distributor, but steam workshop is far better service for most (casual) players. Its the all in all one stop service..

    b. Beside the general info on royalties that i provided for context, there is nothing I can offer further but my uneducated opinion. And as an exclusive PC gamer who relay heavily on mods, it will be very biased toward modders.
  11. The_WitchDoctor

    The_WitchDoctor It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Jun 8, 2015

    That's as far as I had to read to give you rads.
  12. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    Aww, but you DID read the rest eventually? =D

    Apparently, he didn't have enough of making a fool out of himself, so.....

    Ah, the simple joys that situational irony brings.

    Go ahead. Cry about it. It wasn't a "potshot", it was a correction. You made a mistake, I corrected you. Don't take something so trivial as some kind of personal attack, cause it's not. Every time my relatives correct my Serbian, I take it at face value for the effort to help me learn and grow that it is. It's not like they were trying to upset me. Did I go "Oh, and you made an error, HAHA SCRUB!" at all? No? Right, I didn't. Cause I wasn't taking any "potshots" at you, regardless of however easy you were making it; I was correcting your mistakes. And, as the response indicated, EVERY line you submitted was a mistake.

    This logical misstep reminds me of all the Fanboys who defend FO3 as "Bethesda breathed new life into a dead series" fallacy. You mean the "dead" series which was still developing content up until it was purchased by Bethesda? You mean the "dead" series that had a recent (if shitty) put out within a year of the license's acquisition? You mean the "dead" series that SEVERAL big publishers and developers were bidding over to get their hands on? You mean the "dead" series that was alive up until it was killed off for four years straight so they could make a game from scratch despite the fact that the work in progress was practically already done? So, killing off a series and then "reviving" it is something to be worthy of praise? I'm pretty sure that's a charlatan argument. Where your comments draw direct parallels with this is in fixating on Bethesda "allowing" an "opportunity" after THEY took direct action to take any such opportunities away. And this contradicts my "it was available from the start" point how, exactly? Cause I'm pretty sure "the start" predates Bethesda.....

    More like you failed to read. I LISTED examples in the very next paragraph. The examples were the SUBJECT of that paragraph. So, again, wrong.

    Ignorance does not excuse reality. Your lack of appreciation of a situation does not make the situation not real. Copyright laws are LAWS, and laws are rigid structures that leave no room for interpretation. Entire careers are built off of dissecting laws to benefit one party while screwing over another, and copyrights are no different. Some copyright owners have no intention of misusing the laws to the detriment of others, but plenty do. Bethesda is a history-proven example of the latter. So, on top of the fact that these contracts DO restrict consumer options, contrary to your assessment, the parties involves are also NOTORIOUS for pursuing those shady legal avenues.

    So, by all means, continue "loving" said discussion. Like I said, your ignorance won't change the situation. Not hearing this tree fall in this forest won't do anything to silence it.

    This is irrelevant. This is not a philosophical board. This is a gaming board. But, despite that, you are plainly wrong. I don't need to go into specifics nor explain myself. The default state of ALL things is a direction towards simplicity, and control and order are the opposite of these forces. ALL things begin "free". Your cynicism, again, like your ignorance, changes nothing.

    [EDIT: WOOPS! My bad. I was under the impression that this topic was held in the "General Gaming and Hardware" forum, rather than the "General Discussion" forum. So I guess the opportunity for philosophical debate DOES apply!]

    I used examples of other artists to prove my point, and I can list some more examples to further that point and condemn this cynicism further. Rooster Teeth, Game Grumps, PewdiePie, Penny Arcade... basically ANY company or persona currently making waves on the internet began by circumventing what they could NOT sell by focusing on what they COULD sell. Rooster Teeth founder Burnie Burns even likened t-shirts to "internet currency" because it was what many of these groups sold to get themselves up off the ground. They weren't selling Halo content without permission. Oh no! They were selling quotes that they themselves wrote that fans adored! While subjects to very encompassing restrictions, these people made EMPIRES by ignoring all that. This is, again, the status quo: the minutia between legal control and human creativity. This is the breeding grounds of "do whatever I want". Modders have benefited from the exact same principle. They aren't being paid an illegal salary for game content for such and such title that they are creating but have no legal rights to, but rather they are being given money by fans of theirs because they are beloved members of a community.

    This is the situation as it stands. It is a state where creativity IS rewarded... right now. There is no precedent to suggest that anything needs to change to make this better somehow, because it's not bad as it is. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" still applies.

    Your failure to grasp the concept of liberties is your own fault. "Do whatever I want" is NOT legally granted, it is the NATURE of the default state of things. It is the OPPOSITE of "legal right", because as I VERY laboriously illustrated several posts above, legal right is a RESTRICTION of choice, not an increase in choice. My entire point explaining that in absence of these systems there is limitless possibilities seems to have soared over your head completely.

    Now, in retrospect, I realize that I invited more questions, but all I really got were more complaints. Nothing really exploring an idea I suggested or trying to learn anything. Just more assertions. So I'll make it clear that I am NOT interested in nor inviting more assertions shoved in my face. Read my previous post. I'm not addressing a lost cause because I have any hopes that they will turn around. I am addressing a lost cause so others can see and arrive at their own conclusions.
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2015
  13. AgentBJ09

    AgentBJ09 Vault Dweller

    Jul 9, 2015
    Given Bethesda has said they own the mods made by their tools, it makes paid mods look even more like a cash grab. What I'm wondering then is why they tried at all when, by Steam Workshop's numbers, only 8% of players use mods. (I'm willing to wager a much higher percentage than that use Nexus for their mods, and their stats, I assume, wouldn't be trackable by the Workshop/Steam.)

    A. - I can fathom a few reasons. The first one being Steam takes the place of the DRM they used in the past; they tried to say they were anti-DRM in the paid mods post on their blog, but it's disingenuous because if they were, they would've reinstated GOG's right to sell the old Fallout games by now. Much less sold their games in other ways that are DRM/Steam-free.

    And as Bethesda mentioned, only 8% of players use Steam Workshop for their mods. (No idea how much higher it is on Nexus, but I'd wager at least 45%.) That says to me they wanted more gamers to come to Workshop and use it, despite the drawbacks built into the system that Steam shares with the games on its service.

    B. - Then, like me, you should question Bethesda's right to take 15% more than the modders who do all the work, plus have fixed their games for them gratis for upwards of a decade. Again, as George said, "both of these companies exist within an infrastructure they created that directly benefits them from the existence of a modding community." (Valve and Bethesda both make sales due to gamers finding out mods are fixing the problems others are reporting.)
  14. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Mods like SKY UI and script extender or similar stuff which are pretty much essential at this point and which should be hands down a standart in Beth games becoming payed content? It leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. Let us be honest. Those people would fix Bethesdas shit for them and Beth would even get money for it. I would maybe even feel fine with it if the modders would get 100% of the money. But if it works like that ... well, I can live a happy live without Beth games.

    I really really hope that the gaming community will come to its senses and realize that this is NOT in the interest of the gamers and that it will backfire at Bethesda like a Bumerang. I mean com on! You can argue about details but Beth is not a company that is doing THAT bad right now that they have to fall back on such stuff. And when it comes to content you can look at companies like CD Red responsible for the Witcher which has thrown out smaller content FORE FREE. Imagine that.

    Leave modders to beeing modders.
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2015
  15. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012

    Actually, that was just an excuse for:
    1) Showcasing that corrections aren't a mean thing. That doesn't look like I was mean, does it? Cause it wasn't meant that way...
    2) Asking... what IS Sky UI? I'm more familiar with script extender, even if I have yet to use it (still haven't modded any of my games, but that's ONLY because I'm waiting on finishing my next PC first) but I'm hearing more and more about Sky UI and I'm wondering what that is. Does it make a customizable, movable UI or something? Or does it make a Dead Space sort of integrated UI/HUD (floating "in the sky") for Beth's games? Just curious...
  16. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    SkyUI is a mod that takes Skyrim user interface... and with alchemy transmutes into something that is not a humongous piece of shit. It includes things like better sorting of the inventory, Filters, better visuals for the lists, smoother mouse control with scrolling and such and a search function. You know, things it should've had from the beginning....
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  17. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    So... NOT floating UI/HUD like in Dead Space? Ah well, maybe someday... =(
  18. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010

    Gopher Explains it all.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2016
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  19. AgentBJ09

    AgentBJ09 Vault Dweller

    Jul 9, 2015
    We can hope enough gamers will get the picture and start raising a ruckus about that. Talking about it helps, but if what I've seen of Bethesda's hype train is any hint, the only way to get though to the masses would be to question Bethesda's head staff directly, Adam Jensen versus Bill Taggart at the Detroit Assembly Hall-style.
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2015
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  20. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Well there is hope afterall. I mean people rejected shitty horse armor from Beth as well. And I am sure it was just a try to test the water. I hope players show enough brain to give Beth the middle finger again. It's sad though that modders are now the test subject here.