Censorship? There is no censorship!

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by cronicler, Nov 29, 2014.

  1. Akratus

    Akratus Bleep bloop.

    May 14, 2011
    That's not exactly what one sees in the online discussion of feminist demands in relation to videogames. Bayonetta comes to mind.
     
  2. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    What about Bayonetta? I saw some (feminist) reviews saying that her sexualization felt sleazy and uncomfortable to them. I saw other feminists saying she felt like a female power fantasy. Reasonable people can disagree, and both of those opinions can co-exist at the same time. No one called for the game to be banned. People just said they weren't or were comfortable with the main character.

    Also you should really learn to distinguish cultural critiques from "feminist demands". "The way this game treats women is problematic" is not a demand.

    RooshV, Milo Yiannopoulos, RogueStar, Davis Aurini...yo this list could go on for quite some time.
     
  3. Akratus

    Akratus Bleep bloop.

    May 14, 2011
    Eh, I guess 'demands' is an overstatement in the big picture, because I probably don't have the big picture, and I doubt I could. But you really don't see the offended feminists in most of the public discussions online? Does Quiet from MGS ring any bells? Does Dragon's Crown?
     
  4. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    You could start getting the big picture by actually trying to listen to feminist and other cultural critiques, rather than writing them off as just being offended.

    Other than that, I'd ask you why you care that people don't like those things, and express that opinion online. Why is that a problem for you? Can you not live in a world where people look at cultural products differently from the way you do?
     
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  5. Akratus

    Akratus Bleep bloop.

    May 14, 2011
    Obviously I can. It's not so much a problem that people do it, like in the anti-gaming-feminist sketch you seem to have made of my views in your brain, rather that I think it's silly. I don't give a shit if -female character here- is showing off skin in the "I'm confident" kinda way or "a guy with no class designed me" kind of way. (Fucking boobplates, fucking armor that literally fails to protect I swear to god. HEELS IN A WAR SCENARIO?!) Of course, I'll happily admit the majority of the feminist views I see are from forums and websites that post them as a kind of "you believe this shit?" kind of way. Although not most of the time, most of the time it's just kind of like: "Hey I found this argument I disagree what do you guys think?" kind of way.

    Now, when I say 'the big picture', I meant it in a statistical way. There's no way either of us could know whether most feminist-related comments on the internet are getting uppity about showing skin or whether that gal is strong and don't need no man.

    And, I guess I could take a looksee at feminist content on games in a more direct manner. But the thing is, I only really care about the part of feminism I don't agree with. Allow me to explain. If the good part of feminism, online, where games are concerned, merely makes many of the completely reasonable and good arguments you make, there's nothing for me there. If I already agree with the ideals, I don't give a shit about any kind of discussion that tries to establish whether any game is close enough to it or not. Because it's fuckin' videogames and I don't give a shit about political shit in games. Also making moral arguments about media/art/bideo james equals el oh el. I really don't see the point in embracing a political stance onlineor in the personal space at all. Besides, if they focus on triple A games, I mean, gee, If they focus on most games I don't give a shit by default because I ignore basically everything. The last game I even enjoyed was Shadowrun: Dragonfall, and before that Dark Souls. I really don't play new releases almost ever nowadays. I guess I'm in the discussion here mostly for the exercises in debate, and the fact that I've been watching this whole scene from the sidelines it's fun to partake now.

    Edit related to ancient history in internet terms: It wasn't abliest, it was ENABLING. That's the word I meant. Duh doy.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2014
  6. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Shoot me again. I ain't dead yet. Staff Member Moderator

    Apr 1, 2005
    is your shift key broken? i'm sorry. it just really bugs me.
     
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  7. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    It bugs me too, but he said it's just not a big priority for him, because where he got started on the net it wasn't a priority. Or something like that... paraphrasing. I can understand, because people get on my case for my use of all caps, as though I'm raging or shouting or being rude or aggressive, when really I'm just USED to using all caps to stress words, because of time spent in games where chat had no word processing options. No bold, no underline, no italics, and in some the character count was highly restrictive, so using asterisks (Example: *emphasis* not emphasized) would take up precious character length. But all caps would stress the word, it would be noticeable, if drawing attention to it was what you needed, and it was the identical character count, so that's what people used! Then I drift from one forum to another with these tendencies ingrained in my online-writing nature, and they're not going anywhere. But people without my background will look at the all caps and think I'm "shouting". XD
     
  8. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    It's kind of obvious that you get your information on what feminists do or don't think from people mocking them, because you consistently get the things they're actually saying wrong. Which is what some people mocking them (like InternetAristocrat, like Thunderf00t, like most of those very anti-Sarkeesian YouTubers) do: they take things out of context, place them in a context where they seem ridiculous, misrepresent those views, omit anything that makes those views seem more reasonable, and then mock that straw man. It makes for entertaining propaganda, but it's rather hard to have an honest conversation that way.

    Also you should probably stop using the word "uppity". It has a very specific history, which you're unintentionally invoking every time you use it. If you say people are getting "uppity" the actual meaning is that you they're arrogantly placing themselves above their rightful place in society, that they should sit down and shut up because people like them aren't meant to do what they're doing. You probably mean something closer to "upset", "distraught" or "up in arms."
     
  9. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Shoot me again. I ain't dead yet. Staff Member Moderator

    Apr 1, 2005
    Well, it just makes me ignore 60% of what he writes because I can't stand to read it that way. I feel like he might have something interesting to say, and often does when I can manage to look at his posts, but it isn't worth my time if one can't write proper sentences. Sorry Wesdude. Just an observation. :|
     
  10. Akratus

    Akratus Bleep bloop.

    May 14, 2011


    uppity

    Btw this is the sillyness I was talking about. "Uppity is racist." My sides!
     
  11. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    I can't help it if you're ignorant of a word's history and common usage. That's perfectly natural given that you're a native English speaker and not from the USA, so it's no big deal. But it is important to know exactly what you're saying and how people are likely to perceive certain words. And trust me: when you use "uppity", many people (specifically Americans) will assume everything I just said, and think you're making a racist reference. That's just the history of that word.
     
  12. Akratus

    Akratus Bleep bloop.

    May 14, 2011
    Oh god I love being validated.
     
  13. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Shoot me again. I ain't dead yet. Staff Member Moderator

    Apr 1, 2005
    Just to be clear...we are referring to phrases such as "uppity nigger" correct?
     
  14. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    That's the original usage, yes.
     
  15. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Shoot me again. I ain't dead yet. Staff Member Moderator

    Apr 1, 2005
    Thought so. I've usually heard it in that usage. It does have other meanings though so there is that.
     
  16. BigBoss

    BigBoss Your Local Scrub

    956
    Dec 24, 2012
    This reminds of back when the Grand Theft Auto 3D universe was at it's height, people were losing their minds over what it was supposedly doing to other people (namely children), including having a burning gathering where they would burn copies of the game.

    That shit was hilarious, the fact that people were freaking out over it. Anyone that has been found to emulate what they've seen on video games or movies, are 95% of the time mentally disturbed.
     
  17. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    It does, but those other uses don't fit how Akratus has been using the word recently, either. And that connotation is going to be there regardless. There are other words you can use to get the same meaning without that connotation.
     
  18. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    It's simply pathetic and childish when someone states "you're invoking that history every time you use that word". Just sad. You can say "nigger" in a completely benign way, yet people won't be recalling the root word "negro" from other languages referring to the hue black, nor will they be recalling the Niger River. They WILL think an awful lot about racism, but that's no one's problem save those who can't help but make that association with the word. Ditto with words like "holocaust", phrases like "rule of thumb", and all sorts of language.

    Language is constantly evolving, and if you're suggesting that a previous utilization, history, or origin of a word is "invoked each time you use it", you're just TRYING to be upset over something! Why not "invoke" the travesty of all the deaths and suffering caused from widespread cadmium poisoning every time you use a fork that was made out of ore mined near villages where reckless mining lead to cadmium runoff in rivers? Why not "invoke" the tragedy of all that artificial asthma every time you light a stove, cause Industrial Revolution era energy sources, coal, were burned so dirtily that soot was hanging in the air at all times and any cough at any time would be blackened with coal in your lungs? Don't be an infant.

    History matters. It's great to know the history of all things, including words, tools, cities, and cultures. It's important to remember the horrible things that happened in the past so that we DO NOT repeat them in the future. But that doesn't mean that by using things that have been developed on the backs of many deaths throughout history (which is EVERYTHING, by the way) that we're at all being insensitive or callous or inconsiderate. That's just absurd. Are we insulting all the people who failed to pass on their genetics and died every time we breathe? No. But if you INSIST on pointing that out, it certainly can seem pretty fucking rude. Saying "uppity" in its common, modern connotation is totally meaningless, its intended LITERAL meaning notwithstanding. Insisting it's racist because of a racist origin is FAR more insensitive and offensive. We can't get past this tragic history? Please, grow up.
     
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  19. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    Communication is a two-way street, SnapSlav. When you say a word, people will interpret that word in light of how it's usually used. So, no, you probably can't use 'nigger' in a completely benign way. Because you'd be denying reality if you use that word and don't expect people to interpret in light of it being an incredibly insulting word for black people.

    I'm not trying to be upset over anything. I'm just pointing out that these words have a history, and probably will be interpreted that way if you use them. Because that's how words work. And it's one thing if you actually want to invoke that history, but given the way Akratus has been using "uppity", he doesn't. So I'm trying to point out that his communication would be clearer if he used a different word. That him using that word in that way is very, very easily (and likely to be) misinterpreted.
     
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  20. Verevoof

    Verevoof Cryptid oTO Moderator Orderite

    Jul 12, 2009
    Niggardly.

    :smugoticon:
     
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