Censorship? There is no censorship!

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by cronicler, Nov 29, 2014.

  1. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    I'd argue polls are a better reflection of society as a whole than your immediate environment, but sure, lots of people don't like gay people. Lots of people also don't like black people. But we don't blame black people for the racism they face. We don't say "well, society doesn't like black people, so you'd better not raise any kids"! No, we blame society and try to change it. That doesn't mean those individual people won't face problems, but there's a vast difference between problems caused by society's pathologies, and those caused by people's needs not being met adequately.

    Solid analysis of the problems with GamerGate's demands for ethical journalism, here: https://medium.com/@alexandraerin/gamergate-actually-about-ethics-after-all-99e7f14ea690
  2. BigBoss

    BigBoss Your Local Scrub

    Dec 24, 2012
    Well, racism has calmed down a lot in the US. It, of course, is most evidence in the Southeast and of course is very evident in that particular area. However, racism toward African-Americans has calmed down to a large degree. I mean, we have a black president now...

    But homosexuality is still a major issue here, and not just in the Southeast.
  3. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Direct and open hostility, yeah. But when people like Sander talk about racism, they mean a sort of subconscious, culturally ingrained negative stereotype and systemic discrimination of black people.
    Same for sexism.
  4. TheWesDude

    TheWesDude Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Feb 25, 2005
    so those engineering survey

    major complaint is "quality of life-work balance"

    now, whenever i hear that, i always hear "i want more freedom to take days off, and work less hours"

    correct me if i am wrong there. no really, correct me, because i hope that is wrong.

    another complaint was that their contributions were ignored.

    that is completely understandable to me. i cant tell you how many times in the past 4+ years at my current job where someone proposes something that is completely idiotic.

    like when replacing a device and the link wont come up, how many times i have had people suggest putting a media converter and using a spare cable in their bag rather than going back to their office and get new blades/gbics/patch fiber. the only reply to that suggestion is "how long until you go get the new stuff from your office and call me back?" after you ask why they didnt have that stuff when they went out there in the first place.

    now, for the claims of rampant sexism in california, i cannot speak to that. nor can i really speak to any rampant sexism around seattle WA or even VA, but i would put it at a low chance. i could certainly understand where it could come from.

    hell, at my job one of the 3 managers is one of the few women there. it always seemed to me like she got the raw end of the deal and was always being asked to do stuff. one time i made an off-hand comment to her that it seems like they are always running her ragged trying to get stuff done. she replied to the effect that she was glad she worked the 2nd half of the week which incidentally is when i worked as well which is why it seems that way to me. her first part of the week manager is a guy, and she is glad she doesnt work that shift because he gets it much worse than she does.

    of course that could speak to the quality of the people on the shifts in the first part of the week versus the people on the 2nd half of the week. we work 12 hr shifts with 4 shifts. i wonder if that would garner complaints of "quality of life-work balance".

    now, my mom worked effectively worked in HR for the army. she was in the admissions and actions section for the Army ROTC program. yes, they were mostly women. she did that job in california, WA, VA, and KY. she absolutely hated the women she called "air headed baby incubators" which by the way she talked about it was a sizable portion of the people she worked with. they would always complain about their boyfriends/husbands and always trying to get free days off work. she said the number of women there who would always "time" the birth of their babies for the month of august was disgusting as they would get 3 months off, and that is their busiest time of year. she said it took her a while, but eventually she was able to find easy ways of telling when one of the women would try to claim the death of their pet for bereavement leave. or just call out sick for a few days for bogus reasons. and that it wasnt until the beginning to the mid 90s that the real uptick of these things started happening. my mom even said they ended up trying very hard to get more men into their office but that it was so hard because of the bias for women. if you can keep a few men around, it keeps a lot of the shenanigans to a barely tolerable level. but once their office of 30-50 people would dip under 3-4 men, it would get bad.

    from what i have heard from other people, and even read news stories from publications, it seems it is getting worse. and not that uncommon.

    does all these stories from my mom doing that job for over 20 years and constantly hearing that color my opinions? possibly. but when i hear the same stuff from other sources as well, it makes you wonder. and then you hear all these claims of rampant sexism. or people graduated out of college and getting their first "real" job and complaining about "quality of work-life balance" and you have to wonder, maybe they did not know what the job actually entailed? from what i KNOW, in these STEM fields and especially financial and legal, working 80-100 hours a week is actually pretty common. it makes me wonder if they thought they would get out of college and straight into a 9-3 or 9-4 job? i gotta say, working 10-12 hr days/shifts is common. those 8-4 or 8-5 jobs are rare.
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  5. Akratus

    Akratus Bleep bloop.

    May 14, 2011

    There's a funny analysis a codex user made:

    San Francisco rears it's pretentious head once again. :salute:

    That the guy managed to dreg up enough time and effort, that he even cared this much, is crazy.

    But notice how not a single one of those listed points has anything to do with what's actually in the game? Good luck getting rid of some nebulous, completely disconnected force of masculinity in gaming, boys! Of course, post-modern cultural marxist social justice has a perfect track record. All shall tremble and despair! Oh wait, they don't have a good track record at all. Making youtube videos, remixes and whining on blogs is serious activism though. :lol:

    Anyway, I gotta go catch my bus to gamergate headquarters and renew my subscription to pure concentrated evil. We need our daily fix!

    Mother and father =/= nuclear family. If we observe the parenting of people a thousand years ago, or even cavemen, and see that they too take on dual parenting roles, I dare you to call it a social construct. Cultural marxism is so loony, hah! Youre insistance that I or others are having hissy fits, or Tagz's perceived offense taken, is kind of impossible when your logic is this silly. You're really overestimating yourself i you think you're impacting me on an emotional level. Maybe that's the difference between people who can take people not liking them online, a sort of emotional fragility.

    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2016
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  6. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    How do you observe the parenting of cavemen?
  7. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    ... How is listing where people come from with a few "tranny" thrown in an analysis or funny?
    And can someone please tell me what "Cultural Marxism" is? I hear that so often thrown around, but other than "It's bad! Don't you see, it's almost COMMUNISM!" there seems to be no real explanation or definition?
  8. Akratus

    Akratus Bleep bloop.

    May 14, 2011
    Yeah I knew I was using a kind o inapplicable term with 'observe', 'research' might have been more appropriate.

    "Neomarxists called themselves Marxists without accepting all of Marx’s historical and economic theories but while upholding socialism against capitalism, as a moral position …. Thereafter socialists would build their conceptual fabrics on Marx’s notion of “alienation,” extracted from his writings of the 1840s …. [they] could therefore dispense with a strictly materialist analysis and shift … focus toward religion, morality, and aesthetics. ..."

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cultural marxism

    Brad Wardell makes an undoubtedly futile attempt at a reality check:
    An excellent article, as a response to a quinn article recently made:
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2014
  9. TheWesDude

    TheWesDude Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Feb 25, 2005
    that list is embarrassing really, but i will admit, he did better than i thought he would do.

    1) I can choose to remain completely oblivious, or indifferent to the harassment that many women face in gaming spaces.

    so do other women. so do other men. men receive harassment too. receiving of harassment is not women specific. null

    2) I am never told that video games or the surrounding culture is not intended for me because I am male.

    actually, i have been told that as a man i am not intended for several games. null

    3) I can publicly post my username, gamertag or contact information online without having to fear being stalked or sexually harassed because of my gender.

    i have been verbally sexually harassed as a male, it is not reserved for women. usernames are public. gamertags are public. only an idiot posts their contact information online to people they do not trust. not sure how much credence i give this "stalked" point. i shall give it .5.

    4) I will never be asked to "prove my gaming cred" simply because of my gender.

    gender is irrelevant, everyone is challenged for their "gaming cred" online. null.

    5) If I enthusiastically express my fondness for video games no one will automatically assume I’m faking my interest just to "get attention" from other gamers.

    then blame women who do this. that is what "created" this. just like false rape accusations create problems for real victims of rape. null

    6) I can look at practically any gaming review site, show, blog or magazine and see the voices of people of my own gender widely represented.

    "i have a dream. i have a dream that one day articles on gaming media/review/sites will be judged by the content of their material rather than the color of their skin (or their genitals)." null

    7) When I go to a gaming event or convention, I can be relatively certain that I won’t be harassed, groped, propositioned or catcalled by total strangers.

    i have seen pictures of some of the outfits women go to these events dressed as. even considering that, i will give this full marks. 1 point.

    8) I will never be asked or expected to speak for all other gamers who share my gender.

    i am a guy, and i have had women demand i do so. even so, .5.

    9) I can be sure that my gaming performance (good or bad) won’t be attributed to or reflect on my gender as a whole.

    as a guy i have had this happen when i tried to play healers in MMOs. i had to "earn" my chops. null

    10) My gaming ability, attitude, feelings or capability will never be called into question based on unrelated natural biological functions.

    what the hell is this? null

    11) I can be relatively sure my thoughts about video games won’t be dismissed or attacked based solely on my tone of voice, even if I speak in an aggressive, obnoxious, crude or flippant manner.

    no, you cant. even guys have this happen. i have it happen a lot. null

    12) I can openly say that my favorite games are casual, odd, non-violent, artistic, or cute without fear that my opinions will reinforce a stereotype that "men are not real gamers."

    i know a lot of guys that play these games. and they are not "real gamers". null

    13) When purchasing most major video games in a store, chances are I will not be asked if (or assumed to be) buying it for a wife, daughter or girlfriend.

    i actually have had this happen. several times. null

    14) The vast majority of game studios, past and present, have been led and populated primarily by people of my own gender and as such most of their products have been specifically designed to cater to my demographic.

    if you had not said "past" you would have earned full marks. even for present you fail to understand marketing and publishers who back games that they feel will garner most profit. do you honestly believe in todays market that Ultima 4 or Fallout 1 would be published? .25 points

    15) I can walk into any gaming store and see images of my gender widely represented as powerful heroes, villains and non-playable characters alike.

    sure, ill give this 1 point.

    16) I will almost always have the option to play a character of my gender, as most protagonists or heroes will be male by default.

    if you exclude MMS, this becomes not true. .25 points

    17) I do not have to carefully navigate my engagement with online communities or gaming spaces in order to avoid or mitigate the possibility of being harassed because of my gender.

    this will fail, and is a repeat of a previous point. some study said that men receive over 2x the harassment women receive. null

    18) I probably never think about hiding my real-life gender online through my gamer-name, my avatar choice, or by muting voice-chat, out of fear of harassment resulting from my being male.

    yes, you would. see the incidents of men that play female chars. null

    19) When I enter an online game, I can be relatively sure I won’t be attacked or harassed when and if my real-life gender is made public

    gender is irrelevant, in fact if you are male you would receive more as people will not try to be "nice" to you. re-statement of a previous point. null

    20) If I am trash-talked or verbally berated while playing online, it will not be because I am male nor will my gender be invoked as an insult.

    actually not true, if you are a guy nobody will really try to stand up for you to protect you from harassment. so you wold be berated and harassed because you are a guy. correct on the gender. .25 points

    21) While playing online with people I don’t know I won’t be interrogated about the size and shape of my real-life body parts, nor will I be pressured to share intimate details about my sex life for the pleasure of other players.

    yes guys are. see the insults in the "gamers are dead" where pro-gamergate people are called neckbeard virgins that couldnt have sex with women. and yes, men are challenged on the size of their genitals all the time. null

    22) Complete strangers generally do not send me unsolicited images of their genitalia or demand to see me naked on the basis of being a male gamer.

    1 point

    23) In multiplayer games I can be pretty sure that conversations between other players will not focus on speculation about my "attractiveness" or "sexual availability" in real-life.

    no, you wont be. if you thought that, then you havent played multiplayer games much. that is all true for guys as well. null

    24) If I choose to point out sexism in gaming, my observations will not be seen as self-serving, and will therefore be perceived as more credible and worthy of respect than those of my female counterparts, even if they are saying the exact same thing.

    yes your "observations" would be. anyone claiming sexism in gaming has a huge uphill battle. null

    25) Because it was created by a straight white male, this checklist will likely be taken more seriously than if it had been written by virtually any female gamer.

    no, it wont be. it is a joke that denies the male experience in gaming. i dont give a shit who wrote it, it is hilariously bad with very few actual points. null

    so what was the ending score?


    wow, that was better than i thought it would be! considering the source i thought it would be less.
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  10. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Seriously? Urban dictionary? I thought with the frequency the term is used there would be some actual, proper definition and not some random slander.
  11. zegh8578

    zegh8578 Keeper of the trout Orderite

    Mar 11, 2012
    Breivik's "compendium" nags about "Cultural Marxism" non stop. I can barely read the word without feeling nauseous.

    From what I understood, it is the opposite of the Machoest of Spanish Phalangism, if you get what I mean, the weak culture, that allows foreigners to invade, and women to rule, and no hairy-chested men left to beat everyone up
  12. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Marxism is a political buzzword by now. It has (almost) no meaning. I mean there is not even one united idea of communism, that's why they talk rather about Maoism, Leninism or Stalinism, even if it's not really accurate either, but it's better than just communism, because they all took communistic ideas but made their own politics based on it. The way how Stalin or Mao made their politic had relatively little to do with the ideas of Marxism. Neither Marx nor Engels have been very fond about Marxism as an ideology, they have been theorists and rather economists then politicans.

    Maybe. I just mean that caveman and their familiy structure has zero meaning in our family life today or how we raise our children. Particualrly when we talk about homosexual couples raising children.

    The situation is not new, to say this, if we are looking at families where either the mother or father died or disappeared, maybe because of wars or some disaster and now you have two brothers or a mother and her sister taking care of the child. Such situations have shown that aunts, uncles, friends etc. play some role here as well, and even if not its still usually not a problem for the baby/toddler. So to believe that children growing up with homosexual couples would be missing something is simply wrong.

    What children need are loving parents showing affection. Doesn't matter if they are heterosexual or homosexual.
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2014
  13. Akratus

    Akratus Bleep bloop.

    May 14, 2011
    If you an find a better term for the ideology that sees most things as social structures, embraces political correctness and regards feelings as more important than facts, will you let me know?

    I don't use the term communism as a boogyman term, but if you see the wonderful doumentary I posted in the previous thread (this one), there is indeed a big movement of anti-capitalist/pro-sharing far leftists. It's no coincidence that they all employ patreon, most of the time for mere crowd funded welfare on a monthly basis rather than on a product basis. I've also seen a lot of sjw's tweet directly anti-capitalist sentiment on twitter. Not a bad thing, I just noticed it.

    I'm not talking about familiy structure I'm talking about the need for parents, and that the normal state is a mother and father. Nothing wrong with anything else, like a homosexual couple, but the state of on mother and one father is obviously the standard for most animals.
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2014
  14. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    from a biological standpoint yes, 2 males or 2 females can not create a baby, that much is obvious, but socially? I beg to differ. To believe that only parents educate and take care about their children is not correct. Teachers, siblings, aunts, uncles, friends, other parents etc. play a role as well. What we are talking about are role models, characters that children take as example. And those dont have to be always your parents. Infact, in my case my parents have been a great example of how I should NOT do things. But that just by the way.

    Looking at elephants for example, the baby elephant will see affection from its aunt just as much as from the mother and protection from the whole group.

    Infact the typical Mother-Father relationship raising a single child is relatively rare in nature, and recent studies even show that the conection/bond between children and mothers might be less strong compared to most mammals and that a maternal bond might have less to do with biology then we actually believe.

    Killing your own children is a rather normal occurance in nature as well - see lion couples, yet within our society it is seen as one of the worst things - murder. So I would be very very cautious with throwing around sentences like This or That is normal. Particularly if it is based on biology.
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2014
  15. Akratus

    Akratus Bleep bloop.

    May 14, 2011
    Did I say that?

    You must've misunderstood me, I didn't say that the parents have some sort of monopoly on parenting.

    I'm not saying it's normal, I'm saying it's the most occuring standard procedure, if you will, for humans and all animals like them. Natural selection kind of relies on it, at least for the human race.
  16. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    my bad then. Lets then just leave cavemen out of this :p

    hmm, I think it isnt :p.

    We humans are rather special when it comes to our children. I would even say that the idea of 1 father and 1 mother taking care about the child is a relatively new situation.

    At least I would say there are more mammals out there that do it either as group (wolfes, lions, elephants) or where only a mother (rodents) or father takes care about the offspring.
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2014
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  17. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    We can observe many societies today where mother+father is not the way in which children are raised. In fact, we can go back a few centuries in 'Western' societies and find common child-rearing patterns that have zip-all to do with mother+father. Patterns where women exclusively take care of children for the first part of a child's life, for instance (common in polygamous and matrilineal societies). Or situations where child-rearing is a collective responsibility of the local village/population unit.

    Yes, the concept of a mother and father being the accepted way to raise a child is absolutely a social construct. And that's not a remotely controversial observation among those who have actually studied cross-cultural family organizations.
    That's because that's basically what it is. Even when used by those who actually know what they're talking about, it's still a fundamental misunderstanding of Marxism and cultural critique. But when people like Akratus use it, it's just a blanket term used to dismiss any societal critique (or at least the ones they don't like).

    For most animals (including animals like humans), child-rearing is an exclusively female pursuit. That includes the animal most closely-related to human beings, the Chimpanzee ("Males take no part in child rearing").

    Thanks for again demonstrating that point I made above about how "yes but biology" with zero scientific proof is easily accepted when it affirms existing worldviews, and how we should be extremely skeptical of those explanations. What you said here sounds very logical on its face, it's just completely wrong.
  18. Akratus

    Akratus Bleep bloop.

    May 14, 2011
    See, the thing is I wasn't using it as an explanation for anything. I merely stated that the human race has relied on having a mother and father. When did my argument have anything even remotely to do with child rearing?

    Reality up here.

    Sander, down here.
  19. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    This is how you jumped into this conversation about child rearing:
    Who are you trying to fool, here? What is even the point of what you're doing right now?
  20. Akratus

    Akratus Bleep bloop.

    May 14, 2011
    How is that about child rearing? I just think it isn't something only society created.

    I dunno lol