Christine Royce's Magic Brain and Houdini Act

Discussion in 'Fallout: New Vegas Discussion' started by NMLevesque, Feb 18, 2018.

  1. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    618
    Jul 2, 2016
    Also considering that my profile pic, signature, and uh...title? whatever is under the profile pic are all from NV it's a safe bet that it's my favorite Fo title. Just sayin'. It's kind of entirely obvious if you're familiar with the game.
     
  2. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    One of the first things the Brsins do is explain how Lobotomites are made, they explicitly state they replace the brains with Advanced Tesla coils that are supposed to let the brain control the body remotely but none of them, save the Courier's, worked ever.

    Christine says they jammed electrodes into her brain, and turned her head into a flashlight, which says more botched experiment where they electrocuted her than "they exctracted my brain". Hell she wouldn't have been able to leave the Big MT at all if she was a Lobotomite (kinda the whole plot of the DLC).
     
  3. V.D.D.Williams

    V.D.D.Williams First time out of the vault

    25
    Aug 29, 2017
    Just to add my two cents to the discussion:

    A lobotomy is a procedure in which portions of the brain were removed and used to be applied quite frequently in the early half of the 1900s. It was considered and effective treatment for several kinds of psychiatric conditions, especially the ones that manifested in more erratic or aggressive behavior, such as schizophrenia (they pretty much regarded it as a good treatment because it "pacified" this kind of patients). Surgical removal of parts of the brain to try and isolate the specific functions of areas in the brain was also quite common at the time, though by the 1950s the term "lobotomy" was being dropped as the effectivenes of the procedure was put into question. Some years later, ethical concerns forced neuroscience to stop studies that involved surgical removal of brain parts and instead use less permanent means to study how the brain works.

    With that bit of historical trivia out of the way, I think it is plausible for Christine to escape Big MT even though she got sent to Y-17, though I admit its through quite a bit of speculation on my part. IMO, it pretty much depends on how the Auto Docs perform the surgery that produces lobotomites. This is how I see it:

    - When Christine's talks about her head being turned into a "flashlight" It would have to do with the electrodes. Electrodes arent only used to monitor the electrical impulses of the brain, it can also be used to apply electrical impulses to stimulate the brain. Its sometimes done to verify whether a problem is in the brain or some other part of the nervous system, for instance. My speculation is that part of the way in which the Auto Doc is malfunctioning is that it stimulates the brain in order to diagnose or map it, but ends up overstimulating (AKA applying too much electricity) and systematically fries it instead. Since Ulysses interrupts the Auto Doc, only the specific areas responsible for written language got fried in Christine's case, rather than the whole brain which is what would happen to a lobotomite. This also allows her to leave the Big MT despite the containment field, since she was never properly "lobotomized".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrode#Uses

    - A Lobotomite is highly aggressive despite having its entire brain removed Again, Im assuming things about the Auto Doc. When the Think Tank explains why you can still behave normally despite your brain being removed is because they replaced it with tesla coils which "mimic" the brain. My guess is that the Auto Doc maps out your brain functions through the electrodes to "program" the tesla coils which will replace your brain. Since the bullet wound forces the Auto Doc to recalibrate, the Courier manages survives the procedure intact. My guess would be that in the lobotomites case, the Auto Doc fries all the brain except for the most basic/primitive areas, such as motor functions or the Fight or Flight response (and in this case only the Fight part survives), so only these functions get properly "programmed" into the tesla coils.

    Again, Im speculating a lot. But it was pretty fun to think all of this up :postviper:
     
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  4. peadar87

    peadar87 Still Mildly Glowing

    244
    Jun 4, 2015
    Lobotomies for some, miniature American flags for others!

     
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  5. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    This is NMA, can't take the heat, leave the kitchen.

    I don't judge people by their avatars.
     
  6. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    One single facts contradicts any theory about Christine being a Lobotomite: The radar fence. It prevents both lobotomites and brains inside robots from leaving Big MT.
     
  7. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    618
    Jul 2, 2016
    The Think Tank is crazy, and crazy forgetful. They also get basic things wrong like whether or not the rest of the world exists. They don't necessarily know or remember what happened to Christine. Their statements don't rule much out unfortunately. Also tesla coils also do exactly nothing on their on, as do electrodes. We can't assume that lobotomites don't have both in their heads. Arguably they would, given what electrodes are...

    An interesting read, thank you. I would add that the recording in the medical center indicates Christine was in one of the jail cells, not in the auto-doc when Ulysses arrived.

    Is it advice time? If you don't have a real argument, then you shouldn't expect to be taken seriously.

    Not the point, but that was funny, so whatever.

    Yes, that was the very point I raised when I started this thread. "If all it takes to defeat the radar fence is to walk into a train tunnel that would make [sic] be kind of funny I guess, and also stupid given the story."

    I will add that we can't rule out developer oversight, the possibility that her surgery wasn't just atypical in only causing alexia, or that she found a different way to escape. Actually, all of the train tunnels are caved-in when the Courier arrives. Which was done for a reason. It looks better than an invisible wall, but narrative wise it would need to be a viable means of escape. For cazadors and nightstalkers definitely, but maybe more. No one ever said the radar fence reaches underground.
     
  8. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    There is no developer oversight here. All the peices are in their place, everything is given clear explanations. You insist otherwise but you seem to be the only one who reached the wrong conclusion.
    You keep trying to find hanging threads that aren't there.

    We know:
    Christine got captured in the Big MT and was sent to the Medical Facility, they put electrodes in her brain and electrocuted her causing brain damage, before the procedure was completed Ulysses saved her and severily damaged the Auto-doc (You find it buried in debris).

    Elijah escaped out of Big MT after getting what he wanted and to prevent Christine from following him directly he crashed the trains (You can find the caved in trains).
    Edit: And on the timeframe of his escape, in the audiologs inside Ulysses' cave you find a tape where it shows that Ulysses was still nursing Christine back to health long after Elijah escaped, and the fact that he mentions it to her means the period where she was out of combat started before Elijah escaped, making the trains inaccesible to her.

    There is a Radar fence that prevents Lobotomites and disembodies brains in robots from leaving the place, the only people that can pass through it are humans with Brains inside.

    There are no other Brains in Mobious' place either.

    Neither Christine, Elijah, Ulysses, Mobious or the Think Tank ever mention Christine being a lobotomite.


    Ergo, the only way Christine could've left Big MT was through the fence, which means she didn't get her brain extracted.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
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  9. TerminallyChill

    TerminallyChill Be excellent to each other.

    666
    Feb 16, 2018
    Alright, let's be fair here, if we're going to use the "characters can't be trusted" argument, then like half of the information we know about Old World Blues and Big Mountain might as well be thrown out the window. The doctors provide a metric fuckton of exposition in their dialogue.
     
  10. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    618
    Jul 2, 2016
    I'd be very interesting to learn how you can prove a negative, especially since you weren't on the development team.


    They never said electrocuted. Also, you mean electroshocked. Electrocute means kill. As I pointed out, the recording is left in the cells where she was kept. Unless you think she got busted out and thought, 'hey let's go into this other room for no reason and leave a holotape just outside one of the cells for no reason.'

    He used the trains to escape actually. It never says he used them to trap anyone. His own journal states that he thinks she is already dead.

    "...should be able to control the trains via remote to escape before any robots come...No sign of Courier - or that woman. Turns out I was right at the Yangtze Camp, I was being watched there, probably Brotherhood assassin out to "sentence" me. She got hers, though. After the robot attack, saw her get hauled away to the SE by medical robots... probably joined the Lobotomite ranks here, don't have to worry about her anymore."

    *ahem*
    "While we were trying to keep containment on the surface, turns out he used one train to punch out a tunnel and escape... sealed now, but..."

    Actually the Courier can leave as a lobotmite. Their brain knows how to unlock the radar fence as Mobius states. He also states that a particular wrinkle was never attempted, as well as that eventually the Think Tank would find a way. That doesn't rule out unforeseen solutions. In fact it indicates that the character who would know best about the subject, is expecting unforeseen solutions.

    The reason the Courier's brain is in Mobius' layer is because it was extracted by the Sink auto-doc, which Mobius' programmed and monitored. One part I don't recall is whether it was stated or merely implied that he transported it via pipes. Either way, we have no indication that Mobius can pull extracted brains from the medical center. The Think Tank were experimenting with the Sink auto-doc, not the medical center one.

    Why would Christine know that they're called lobotomites? She doesn't have a pipboy, and she never talked to anyone that would know.

    I didn't doubt something they said. I doubted conclusions drawn on what they didn't say. If Arcade forgot to mention something that might be something to consider (though absence of evidence =/= evidence of absence). That the Think Tank didn't have much to say about the only visitor they never met, who as far as we know only entered one facility, doesn't rule out anything. They barely even want to talk to the Courier to begin with. However, that we should doubt what characters who are explicitly and thoroughly painted as unreliable sources of info, is not exactly a revelation.
     
  11. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    You gotta know you are full of shit at this point. Your argument has no legs to stand on. Moving on.
     
  12. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    618
    Jul 2, 2016
    XD
    I love irony. I really do.
     
  13. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Do you know what irony means, like how you know what a Lobotomy is?
    Because if all your arguments are "What if the characters are wrong and I am right?" or ignoring the point that nobody mentions Christine getting her brain removed and instead focus on wether or not she knows the word Lobotomite I don't think you really know how to formulate an argument.

    I just staed what it's been stated in the game. You are trying to build a bridge with clouds.

    "They would have eventually found a way" =/= They already found a way and Christine used it. Specially when nothing points to this.

    The courier can only leave the Big Mt as a Lobotomite through the use of Teleportation. Christine didn't have it and nothing states she did and the Transporter only gets made at the end of the Big MT quest. Thus, she has no way of leaving the Big MT without a brain in her head.

    "But what if the characters just forgot I am right?"
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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  14. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Something you didn't consider Walp, maybe he knows all too well what a Lobotomy is ...
     
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  15. TerminallyChill

    TerminallyChill Be excellent to each other.

    666
    Feb 16, 2018
    Of couse he does. It's like rayaaaain...



    Fucking. Savage.

    How about everyone agrees to disagree?
     
  16. NMLevesque

    NMLevesque Commie Ghost

    618
    Jul 2, 2016
    Considering that you never acknowledged getting any of the facts wrong, despite being corrected with quotes repeatedly, yes I do know what irony is. I might also add that you've spent more time trying to insult me than making actual points, most of which you just keep repeating ad naseum.

    I've addressed that real lobotomies and Fallout lobotomies are not the same thing. Why you think repeating refuted points constitutes an argument is beyond me.

    "If." -Leonidas of Sparta

    Also, who would tell us that her brain had been removed? Which character would know that?

    Nobody says her brain wasn't removed. Nobody says anything other than lobotomies are being done forcefully on people entering the Big Empty. Nobody says there is something else being created by stuffing electronics into peoples skulls, that results in the same scars. Nobody indicates that the medical center didn't also invent lobotomites, as would be most logical. Nobody says she had a "botched implant surgery" that Ulysses interupted except you.

    Not an actual quote, and also not my argument.

    What's with the Random capitalizations?

    "If you become friends or exist in an uneasy truce with weapons aimed at each other, it would unlock the fence for {emph}you."

    It's possible that Mobius didn't feel like specifying teleportation only, and decided to use a misleading metaphor, but it's also possible that the developers had zero reason to let us manually walk out of Big Mt. Shall we also assume that it's impossible to walk up 45 degree hills, because they have the wrong texture? Or that using rope to climb out of a window is just impossible?

    You're confusing what the player can't do, with what the characters can't do. You're also confusing 'we can't rule something out ' points with 'this is definitely what happened'. My only assumption is that Christine was lobotomized. If I didn't assume that, I would have to make other assumptions. I prefer to make the fewest assumptions. It's parsimonious.

    You assume no developer oversights (false), that lobotomites have no electrodes in their skulls (unlikely), that it was a botched implant surgery (speculation), she was electroshocked (speculation), Ulysses interrupted it and detoured to put the recording in the cells (speculation and illogical), that Elijah believed her alive (false) and used trains to trap her (false), that Mobius would have her brain (speculation), etc. Really, I could go on.

    Mostly I argue that there are gaps in what we know, and that certain things are possible. You're suggesting we can fill it based on what hasn't been said. That's not a logical argument. Especially not when we are explicitly told not to rule out 'unforeseen solutions to escaping Big Mt'. Which is basically the premise of the entire story. Oh no, wait, it is literally the premise of the entire story.

    But what if you can only argue against a strawman because I keep dismantling everything you say? It's also ironic that you keep forgetting that we're talking about characters that have forgotten almost everything, and then you act like that makes you right.
     
  17. TerminallyChill

    TerminallyChill Be excellent to each other.

    666
    Feb 16, 2018
    After carefully rereading all of the posts made in this playpen, it looks to me like everyone is basically arguing over speculation on what 'lighting somebody's head up like a flashlight' means. Personally, knowing how much this game loves talking about lobotomies when they happen, I have a seriously hard time believing that Christine was lobotomized considering it is never once explicity stated.

    However, the writing about her medical procedure is undeniably ambiguous, which is why this back and forth has been able to continue for so long. As I said before, everyone should probably just go on believing what they want to believe. We might as well be arguing over the existence of god.
     
  18. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Is it a lobotomised god?
     
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