Come and see... the live show of a war going on

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Gonzalez, Jan 18, 2015.

  1. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Yeah right. All those poor fuckers. Its their fault that they are so weak, isnt it :roll:

    Seriously, that is a bit narrow minded. I mean I will not go so far and say that characters like Castro or Ho Chi Minh are saints or what ever. They have been assholes, no doubts about it. But it helps to understand the systems and situations where those people have grown up, neither Castro, nor Kenedy or Chruschtschow have been crazy or mad people, they have simply made different experiences, particularly both Chruschtschow and Kennedy have grown up with the experiences of WW2 no one of them wanted a war, but fear and axienty can create very unreal situations. Particularly Cuba is a very sad nation when it comes to that. It was partialy the US that pushed Cuba so far that they had literaly no other options than to start negotiating with the Soviet Union, economical sanctions and political isolation by the US, they tried several times to eliminate castro and they had very real plans when it comes to military actions. And the Soviets in the end did pretty much what the US did already in Turkey. Seting up nuclear missiles at the front door of their enemy. It was a crazy situation. Seriously, when you listen to some veterans from Cuba they had not really much more love for the Soviets either, it was simply in their eyes the lesser of two evils. No nation wants really to have foreign troops on their soil. Never.

    I suggest to watch The Fog of War where Robert McNamara talks about his experience in the cold war. It really gives a very unique view about the events and how the people thought back than, and why even still today many people think very similar - dividing the world in "good" and "bad" regions for example is a very simplistic and easy view on everything, it makes it easy when it comes to decisions. And it is of course a very easy view for the masses as well.

    [h=1]Khrushchev on the Cuban Missile Crisis[/h]

    I am not saying the media is always lying or there is no bad stuff happening in Russia, Syria or that the Iran is not a dictatorship. Those are places where a lot of wrong things happen, no doubts about that. But we should not always be so simplistic in our views, or even believe in our arrogance that we can always fix everything, particularly the idea hat we could simply export our "way of life" and democracy to those places, all we have to do is to start the democracy and things will simply change like magic. It took us still some 200-300 years to get there, and it was a very violent journey. The cases where we actually managed to improve the situation by using only military means are very rare. At least I can not really name even one situation where we managed to really help another nation by military actions alone. Both Afghanistan and Iraq as recent examples have still decades to go before they might reach a level of living that is close to ours.

    Germany in particular, just as example, has tried from the late 60s and mid 70s a different approach with the Soviet Union for example. Because people very often say that you can not talk with dicators/regimes or that you have no other way to deal with them as the only thing they understand are military actions. But at the peak of the Cold War where the Soviets bloodly silenced any oposition in Easter Europe with tanks and soldiers Germany started to talk with the Soviets. They started a dialogue. Dialogues with the aim to normalize the relationship between Western Germany and the Eastern Nations, particularly East Germany. Those Conversations have lead to meetings between politicans, to coperations, to the so called Ostverträge. It helped to create cracks in the Iron Curtain, which ended in the policy of detente which ended more or less with Reggan. It was the EXACT opposite of what is done today, it was not about confrontation and agression but about dialogues finding common interests. I am curious why something that worked in the Cold War can't be done again today. Because hearts to hearts, what ever we think about Putin, he is no Breschnew, Stalin or Chruschtschow. And definitely no Hitler. And Putin is not Russia. Ukraine will at some point become quite, but we will still have to deal with the decisions and politics from now.

    For the time beeing, yeah. The east european nations make good pets for them. Because they need them. But things can change in the future. The US has not always treated its allies with the best respect. Think about South Korea for example, right after WW2 the US government had no problem with a dicatorship in their part of Korea. The way how they acted in Vietnam wasn't really great either. Also I am not really sure if people seriously think all of this trough. What it actually means from a Russian perspective to have something like US military equipment, rockets etc. in Poland or Latvia or any of the other Eastern European states. Let us assume Russia would install such system ins Mexico or Canada because they became voluntarily members of the warsaw pact, if it would still exist today, and it would not bother the US? Not even slightly? Very unlikely. It's also stupid to talk about purely "defensive" weapons in a military sense. There are no deffensive weapons. Beacause any defensive weapon can be also used offensively.

    I know I come of as pretty ignorant right now, I got that. I had the luxury to grow up in Germany, a nation living under the US nuclear shield which has seen a lot of protection. I am not stupid. Without the US military presence in Europe particularly after WW2, history might be very different today. But I have also my experience from Serbia, knowing the people there, at least somewhat.

    That's why I would not go so far to believe that the US, or any other nation for that matter, including any European ones and Russia is doing anything because of moral or for noble reasons. When Russia is talking about Ukraine it is always because they want to defend THEIR interests, when WE talk about Ukraine it is always about OUR interests it's very rarely about to find a consent, ways how to improve the situation for Ukraine, the people there. I mean for fucks sake, even we all spie on each other, the US on us, we on the US, the Brits on the French, the French on the Germans etc. If things would be really difficult most nations would fall back in their old thinking of mistrust and bickering. It's probably human nature. No clue. The only reason, most probably, why we managed to keep a relatively peacefull Europe is because of the nuclear weapons and the danger of a nuclear war with the Soviet Union. It forced the European Nations to work together, economicaly and politicaly.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2016
  2. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    It is not about how they are weak. It IS about whom they chose to ally themselves with. Just because Batista/the U.S. at the time was extremely douche doesn't mean Castro couldn't have made overtures to the U.S. much like Mao did. Both Mao and Castro had bad bad blood with the U.S. Both Castro and Mao called America on its bullshit and sided with the soviets. However, unlike Castro, Mao saw that the USSR was destined to fail, along with many other factors that helped him conclude that rapprochement with the U.S. is better than further antagonizations. Sometimes, one can admit that the times/situations have changed and one must change with those times. Vietnam and Cuba could have pursued rapprochement as well but did not.

    I have never said one side or the other is MORALLY superior. Yes the standard of living and freedoms afforded to its citizens is greater in the west but at the end of the day, that really doesn't make us MORALLY superior. I am talking about a head of state that REFUSES to change with the times. Russia is no longer and NEVER will be a global force like the U.S./NATO is. So it keeps its Baltic Fleet base, so fuggin what? Whats it going to do with that base? Police the world? Project power? That base is merely a thorn in NATOs side yet he is willing to kill countless Ukrainians to keep it. Pure stubborness. Now if it were the USSR, I would understand because they had a shot at counter-balancing western influence. A base would actually matter in this scenario. We are talking realism here, not moral superiority.

    This only leads to my statement above that the big guys should unite and stop using other nations as toys for a proxy war. BTW, we weren't assholes to our allies. That would mean we abandoned them. We backed up S. Korea, we continue to back up Japan and Taiwan. The glaring example is S. Vietnam but that was thanks to liberals who could not view the bigger picture and a retarded administration that wouldn't allow our military to do what was needed to win the war. I doubt any Japnese or Koreans or Taiwanese would think of themselves as 'pets' for the U.S. If anything, its pretty insulting to them.

    No I get it. But again, I covered it above. If Putin thinks NATO is going to invade Russia if he loses Ukraine, he is completely fucking deluded, bordering on crazy. Russia has nukes, China has nukes. Both nations are strong economically and militarily. Any invasion would be a military and political disaster for the U.S.
  3. valcik

    valcik So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Dec 20, 2008
    Agreed. NATO doesn't intend to invade Russia, quite the opposite. Quick response forces were formed and trained after Russian army has started breaking international space - several Russian bombers loaded with nuclear bombs have crossed borders of British airspace in 2014, Russian submarines loaded with tactical nuclear warheads have crossed Swedish borders in Baltic sea, and so on. It's Russian army who started flexing their muscles around EU quite aggressively in recent time.
  4. Gonzalez

    Gonzalez Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2004
    I'll let Putin himself answer to that:

    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2016
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  6. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    That video is pretty funy but for other reasons.

    Let me turn it around.

    Why does he worry about a missile shield? Is he prepping to launch nukes at NATO/US? If he isn't planning to launch his nukes at us, why worry? Better yet, why doesn't Russia just join NATO and make the shield obsolete? Why you ask? Because he is a stubborn mule that insists on competing AGAINST rather than working WITH the US/NATO. Thats why.

    I have been giving the same answers like three pages now and still you don't understand. You do know the reason why proxy wars started in the first place is because the big nations couldn't fucking work together. Instead of global unity and working towards calling all of humanity TERRANS, we insist on retarded ass labels like america or china or russia or what the fuck ever.

    Instead of peace we fought huge wars. When those wars proved too expensive, we figured it would be ok to just colonise and pick on the brown peoples instead. When colonising ALSO got too competitive, the big nations decided to fight two even bigger fucking wars. After all the dead, the big guys figured out making smaller nations fight our wars for us would be an even better fucking idea. If we got america in S. America, the soviets decide to stir shit up down there just to cause problems. The USSR expanding communism? We gotta stop that shit and fight in Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc.

    At this point in time, we have 3 of the 5 members of the permanent security council (the most influential members of the U.N.) united. Wouldn't it be nice if the other 2 just joined the fucking party. But noooo, even though NATO is clearly stronger militarily and we can hit them from many other countries if we wanted to (which we do not), Putin insists on a Russia that would rock the fucking boat. He would rather kill hundred of Ukrainians just to keep one insignificant base.

    If the tables were turned, and the Warsaw Pact and USSR was super awesome, my other alternate self/family probably would have emigrated there and I would still be taking the same friggin stance. That stance would tell the remnants of NATO to just man the fuck up and stop blaming shit on other nations and fix your own fucking problems. Or, you could work with the clear winner of this alternate cold war and get shit done.
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2015
  7. Gonzalez

    Gonzalez Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2004
    You keep talking about Russia joining NATO like that is ever goi g to happen. Are you oblivious to how the world works? I already explained this to you, the US and Europe don't want Russian input in NATO, they will never even offer to join, they don't want what happens in the UN to happen to NATO, they only want vassals they can control to join, not someone who can compete for leadership within NATO, they already had problems with this between themselves in the past.

    And you should also know there is something in this world called "nuclear balance", and if one side upsets this ballance to its favor then it could potentially do a first strike withouth the other side being able to respond, and this will leave the weaker side at the stronger's side mercy. The missile "shield" negates Russian response capabilities at the time it leaves it open to attack. Are you aware of what this means or are you just ignoring the writing on the wall on purpose?

    And "accept the clear winner"? And then you ask why I say that Russia's compliance to the west would be bending over to them? Dude, are you serious?

    You are basically telling me that the whole world should submit to US "leadership", man, I would fight in a war myself and die if necesary not to see that ever happenning, and I'm not talking about deffending Russia here, I'm talking about the sovereignty of my own nation.
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2015
  8. valcik

    valcik So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Dec 20, 2008
    On a side note - there's excellent Polish movie Generál Nil (2009) depicting oppression and crimes commited by Russian secret services in Poland after the WW2. This is not usual war flick, it's incredibly accurate movie following historical facts quite precisely. If you guys come across it by chance, watch it!
  9. Gonzalez

    Gonzalez Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2004
    And I reccomend the movie Garage Olimpo, where it shows how CIA trained personnel systematically tortures, and murders suspects of communist subversion in Argentina.
    • [Like] [Like] x 3
  10. valcik

    valcik So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Dec 20, 2008
    Thanks for the tip, Gonzalez. Never heard of this one, i'll make sure to check it out!
  11. Sub-Human

    Sub-Human -

    May 31, 2011
    Russia doesn't even have to join the NATO. All that's required from Putin is stop being an aggressive tyrant. The other side of the deal is that he returns to European and US markets, which will allow the Russian economy to grow again.
  12. Putin is balancing support at home from support abroad.

    Unfortunately for him, both have different views and expectations of him.

    The type of person Putin is, if he had direct control of everything Russia would look like California or Dubai in about 20 years.

    Not the same, but would look pretty similar.
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 8, 2015
  13. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Probably for the very same reasons that the US could have never accepted nuclear weapons on a tiny island like Cuba. And it doesn't matter how often the Soviets claimed that they had a purely defensive role.

    I don't defend or hate Putin, but he has a point here.

    There are no "defensive" weapons. All kind of weapons are always offensive by nature, that's kinda why they are weapons. That's simply how warefare goes. There is no strictly defensive weapon. There never was. And there never will be. Any weapon system like radars or missile shields etc. can work in attack scenarios as well, both the Warsaw Pact and the NATO never got tired to explain that their whole military was always about defense, yet they all had their little war games where they started the first strike. I mean what? Let us be very very crazy here and assume the NATO attacks Russia (like I said, let us be crazy for a moment). What do we think? That they will go and suddenly say something like, Oh! We are attacking! Let us turn of the radar and missile defense shields for the duration of the offensive! We are fair players! Warefare though, has no rules. Putin would be actually a madman if he ignored this. I mean he is a crook. And if someone knows how criminals think, than it is another criminal.
  14. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    So asking Putin not to fuck with another countries sovereignty is asking him to bend over? So Ukraine wishes to join EU and Russia just tells them, Fuck You. Great solution.

    I dunno why I am saying this, maybe Sander or BNs rhetoric might have gotten to me. I will try to be clearer, Russia, and, or China joining NATO would be a historic happening. The U.S. UK, France, Germany etc, knows how strong Russia or China is, even if they have no real force projection, atleast on a gobal stage. Let me be clear, NATO would no longer exist. I guess it would be like the permanent security council of today without the assfuckery going on.

    There is a reason why NATO will not invade Russia or China. Even Crni said it, "lLets be crazy". Thing is, leaders usually do not get to where they are if they are crazy. Say what you want about Bush, but he was more stupid than crazy. And he was the most asshole president that we have had for some time, atleast to the rest of the world and many at home. The Russians and the Chinese too have "missle defense shields", as well. I wouldn't even assume that you would "ignore that writing on the wall", so to speak. So if China and Russia have a missile defense shield, why shouldn't the Ukrainians be allowed to have one to protect them? I have stated that both the Russians and the Chinese have the miltiary strength to make any conventional invasion a complete disaster. What the hell is Putin afraid of? Why is he using this contrived fear to mess with the Ukrainians?

    Uh, because NATO won the cold war? Did I miss something here? Putin feels the loss of the USSR has not only made Russia weak but felt the rest of the world lost its champion against the big bad U.S. boogeyman. How am I mis-interpreting this? He essentially believes that all of those ex-soviet states seperating is a disaster and wishes it never would have happened. Are you seriously telling me a more belligerant and expansionistic Russian Federation is a good thing??

    And even more importantly, how did Russia and/or China having much closer ties with the west turn into a ploy for western global domination? Not once have I mentioned anything about any nation besides the permanent security council and Ukraine/ex-soviet states. I know I mentioned nothing about Argentina besides that movie stuff. I mean seriously WTF?
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2015
  15. Sub-Human

    Sub-Human -

    May 31, 2011
    I'm sure when he tells foreign journalists to get a circumsion or laughs in their face if they dare question his policies he's balancing 'support' from abroad.

    That's complete fecking ignorance of the type of person Putin is. He's had direct control of everything in Russia for the past 15 years and three trillion dollars. What happened? Right, mass corruption, huge budget sinks, the most expensive Olympic Games in history (and upcoming FIFA event).
  16. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    The thing is that realistically speaking no leader or political figure like Putin, Obama, or any of the European politicans which have SOME say, like in Britain, Germany or France could afford it to ignore such stuff, even if there is no imminent or realistic danger of attacks. We are after all talking about military equipment here. And while I said, that NATO attacking Russia is crazy, neither you nor I can know what will happen in 5, 10 or 50 years from now. People very often compare Russia and Putin with what Germany did in Sudeten Germany using it as reason to annex teritory. You can also always turn this around. Russia was attacked and quite badly devastated by Germany two times in recent history, I mean 60-90 years are not THAT far, most of us are just not old enough to remember the impacts. But anyone with half a brain can will keep it in mind. Like I said, no one knows what kind of political changes might come in the future.

    Again, if we would be talking about the US here they would most probably not accept any Russian weapons in Mexico or Canada close to their borders, no matter if defensive or not, and they would at the VERY LEAST protest heavily.

    The problem with all of this is that we do not follow the quid pro quo. We right now complain about a lot and ask our self why Russia is beeing such a dick right now when the issue is that we have been quite big assholes for the past 20-30 years as well. We have been the role model for Russia and we have shown them what is needed if you want to succeed. And outside of military actions, which no one can seriously consider a real option, there is not much we can do. Sanctions will not stop Russia - they would not stop us either if Russia and China would use sanctions against us, if you think about it. And no kind of political outrage will do much either.

    I feel if we don't want to risk a serious third world war, probably with nuclear weapons there is very little we can do against Russia here. As much as I hate to say it. But even if Russia would decide tomorrow to storm Ukraine with all of their military forces, what kind of plan do we have? Seriously? What kind of "realistic" options do we have here? Bombs? Sending troops in? I somehow can't see that happen. People forget that Russia, despite of all its problems, is still one of the major nuclear powers out there. And when the shit hits the fan, they could pretty quickly get their military together. If not with technology than with numbers. Russia has a lot of economical problems but we should not underestimate them. To many made that mistake.
  17. TheGM

    TheGM The voice of reason

    Aug 19, 2008
    Well running your country into the ground as a way to bolster your own Kleptocracy takes time and money. People around the planet keep assuming this recent spate between Russia and The West is Russia pushing back on the creeping advance of The European Union on it's archaic Sphere of Influence by invading it's neighbor's who they signed treaties with stating they wouldn't invade, when in reality it's just a smoke screen to blame the recent crumbling of various parts of the Russian economy and infrastructure on somebody else to differ attention away from the fact Putin Holdings and Assets have been gutting these things for years. Before Putin reminded the Russian public that The West remembered they hated them and wanted to destroy Russia, was going with The Gays hated them and wanted to destroy Russia by putting Gay in the Water and giving other people Gay.
  18. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    Crni Vuk

    As I said, I understand what you are saying. That doesn't ncessarily mean we just let Putin do what he wants. See the thing is, we get bitched at if we don't say anything. Then, if we do say something, we are all of a sudden hypocrites. You could see that kind of logic is absolutely retarded yes?

    Now, let me try a different way to phrase this. If Putin was just worried about the safety of Russia, he might gain a bit more sympathy. HOWEVER, that all went out the window when he made his 'USSR collapse was the greatest tragedy in our time' speech. You understand now? You can't throw a tantrum and say we are encroaching on your rights when you have clearly stated you intend to act like a douchebag in the future. No wonder the ex-soviet states want NATOS brand of missile protection from Russia than the other way around. And YES, it is our responsibility to protect allies who want it (in this case the Ukrainians). If we do not, we would be 'assholes', as you so clearly worded it. It can't be both ways man. Otherwise, everybody sits on their thumbs and nothings gets done.

    I don't believe it will go into all out war, I don't believe Putin is crazy. I do believe he IS testing our resolve. If we continue to stand strong, he will know NATO is not some soft goo waiting to be steamrolled. The Russian people are already asking questions, much like our own population has done with the Iraq war. Russian mothers wonder why their sons are shipped off into some foreign country and dying for some kind of proxy war. And thats whats important here. If we do not stand up to Putin, he will be emboldened for more. If we do not protect our allies if they ask for it, then we lose credibility and become assholes. This is a recipe for disaster.
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2015
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  19. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    But that's the question isn't it? What can we do to "stop" him really. If it would be possible to do that, we would have done it already. But let us be honest. There is no way to do anything here as long we are not ready for a direct confrontation with Russia, in other words, sending troops and military equipment to Ukraine - of which some believe it already happens secretly, at least on smaler scale, but I have no clue about such things. So unless we are not ready to risk a third world war for Ukraine, I don't think there is a lot we can do. Our politicans right now do only lip service. No one will sheed a tear or even sending soldiers to Ukraine if the shit hits really the fan and Russian tanks/troops would be marching over Ukraine.

    I don't believe that Sanctions will do really anthing in the end. Definitely not stoping Putin or Russia.

    My feelings are that we are in this case the loser and there areally are not that many options. But I am neither a professional nor a politican, sowhat can we do in my opinion:

    1. We have to accept that Crimea is lost. It was wrong from Russia to move in there. But there is no point in talking about something that's done, unless you don't want that things settle down. - Hey! Who knows? Maybe some people want escalation. So any politican who's still talking about Crimea doesn't really look for stability in Ukraine.

    2. We should be honest about our motivations. This isnt about helping Ukraine to become a rich and prospering nation, just as we are not in Afghanistan to make them rich. The European Union just like the US don't give a shit, just as they don't with any other nation. Unless we have a very big benefit from it. Once we agree that it is about interests, we might have a chance to actually improve things. We are not much better compared to Russia. We make deals with questionable political figures, we support groups with money and who knows? Maybe even with weapons. The west has a track record of such situations, so there is no reason to assume that Ukraine would be different.

    3. With saying that, we have to show Russia that we are a SERIOUS(!) partner. What do I mean with that? We are on the short end here, that means our bargaining position isn't very good. Ukraine is very far from the US and Europe. But it is next to Russia. There is not much hope that they will ever let go from the case in our favour. I am thinking here, what would I do in Russias position, and my answer is, I would not give up on Ukraine. We have to give Russia the feeling that they can trust us, right now they don't. For what ever reason. Most probably because they feel that the US has a to big presence in Europe, which I somewhat agree, their influence is very high. - And not always in our favour, see Snowden. Even the last one should realize that this isn't about clearly good vs. bad guys.

    If the European Union would have a more neutral stance on the whole thing, we might even have a chance to see a real change here. Geting a dialogue started. We can't get Russia on a table and making concessions if they feel that is always either Russia OR Eerope/US for Ukraine.

    I hate to say it, but this isnt about Ukraine or Europe. Neither of them have much to say here. Sadly. This is really more about US and Russia.

    To say this though. You should not be so focused on what Putin says all the time. He is a MOFO. Just like any other politican. I mean Hilary Clinton compared him to Hitler. That's just as stupid. And unprofessional. And many of our politicans throw a lot of garbage around as well. So I would not give much to that. He might not even care that much about Russia and just want to secure his power, like any other politican. However, that doesn't mean that the reasons are all wrong. There is a concern for Russia here. What ever if we like that fact or not. And many people had to deal with the Sovietunion in the past actually understand that. They say that no Russian leader would ever accept foreign influence in Ukraine, not Gorbatschow, not Jelzin and not Putin. That's why we have to find PEACEFULL ways to get Russia to make concenssions and promises, otherwise Ukraine will stay a shit hole for decades. And no sanctions coming from our side will change that.

    Ukraine is not aour ally. I know this sounds harsh, but its a fact. Ukraine is not a NATO member. THey are not a member of the European Union. Russia hasn't really attacked any of our Allies. Nor have they even bullied/frigthened any of our Allies. So we should be cautions here. It might still take a few years before we really can call Ukraine one of our Allies. When I say they are not aour ally than I am talking STRICTLY about it in a political way, I very much feel for the people down there. But let us be honest. Ukraine is not Turkey, Greece or Canada.

    And the people here do the same. At least some. Ukraine isn't really much of a topic anymore. Who would have guessed ... But those that ask question are for example curious why so many US companies are so deeply involved in Ukraine. Like certain energy companies. And if there is more to all of this than just "Zey need our help!". Many of the contacts they had with eastern Ukraine are now obsolete.
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2015
  20. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    Well, keep up the sanctions and see what happens. I was never one for giving up, especially if the Ukrainians really want our help.

    I disagree.

    The Ukranians are asking EU/NATO for help, telling them Fuck You might be ok for you, but not me.

    No deal is ever one sided, I have pretty much said this in past posts.

    Trust runs both ways.

    Putin says the USSR collapse was a failure, moves Russian troops into Ukraine, and proceeds to destabilise the region. Hillary essentially called him names. Yeah, totally the same.

    He already HAS power. He has been in power for quite some time.

    Sanctions ARE peaceful. So your saying that we remove the missile defense intended to protect our allies, simply because, the Russians don't like it? "Hey, I know your our friend and ally and you legitimately worry about the Russians. However, we are taking back our missile defense system we setup for you. Why you ask?, because Putin is scared/doesn't want you to have one."

    No surprise here, all soviet rhetoric.

    But they want to be. They want to join the EU, maybe NATO.

    PS: Lets be objective here, as you say. Russia and the US both learned global force projection from many nations that came before. From the UK, to the Macedonians, and before even that.
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2015