Come and see... the live show of a war going on

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Gonzalez, Jan 18, 2015.

  1. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign WHO DO YOU THINK THAT IS THERE? Staff Member Moderator

    Apr 1, 2005
    Well, there was a mass murder in Yemen recently...
  2. Gonzalez

    Gonzalez Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2004
    So was in Nigeria, 2.000 dead, an entire town full of civilians razed, but people was busy talking how 8 frenchmen died at the time, so I guess no one noticed.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2016
  4. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003

    This is a variation on the tu quoque fallacy. Whatever shortcomings the West has do not change the fact that Russia is behaving like an imperialist asshole and needs to be called out of it. What problems the West has are separate issues and should be handled. Anyone pointing them out would be in the right.

    I mean, you're advocating abdicating any and all responsibility, just because shit isn't perfect.

    You do realize that Germany has given up on Eastern Prussia, which was their foothold in the east for centuries?

    I mean, this isn't rocket science: Russia wouldn't lose Crimea or Ukraine if it didn't behave like an imperialist asshole. Peaceful coexistence with the West, rather than saber-rattling and having pointless dick contests, would be far more beneficial to Russia in the short and long term.

    It got Crimea, but destroyed its relations with the west, alienated its biggest markets, its economy is in shambles, and perhaps most importantly, it has reinvigorated NATO. That last point is pretty telling: Russia has no long-term strategy and improvises, otherwise they would have stayed the fuck out of Ukraine.

    Seriously: To curb NATO influence they reinvigorate NATO. Insanity.

    So you're offering a gut feeling in place of reliable evidence. Good to know.

    The problem with finding a compromise is that Russia will not compromise. Why do you think they invaded Ukraine and supported the eastern insurgency?

    That didn't stop Hitler from invading the Soviet Union in 1941.

    Nobody said that Ukraine is going to be put on a fast-track to NATO. This is a wet fantasy of Russian nationalists.

    Yeah, Ukraine in NATO. Terrible. As if we didn't already have a lengthy frontline giving us choice of where to start the offensive and strike at Moscow and Saint Petersburg within the first days of the war. Just look at the map and note where Estonia and Latvia, both NATO members, lay. Note how close they are to either city.

    Now look at Ukraine. It's true that it is strategically placed and would allow for establishing a salient that would cut off the Caucasus. But here's the clincher, something a lot of pro-Russian people don't understand: Russia has given Ukraine to the West on a platter. By annexing Crimea and invading the east, Russia has earned the hatred of Ukrainians and created a new national mythology, where Russia is the evil empire threatening the Ukrainian state (not that it wasn't one before hand, mind you). If push comes to shove, Ukraine will not fold or mosey over to the Russian camp. It will join the West. Even if Ukraine isn't a part of NATO, it will work with NATO, not Russia.

    Wasn't it Napoleon who said that you don't interrupt the enemy when they make a mistake?
  5. Gonzalez

    Gonzalez Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2004
    All in time I say. We can theorize all we want here, but only time will tell if the sanctions have any results or if Russia will hold on to Ukraine. The theory of the west creating an anti-russia and Russia creating an anti-anti-russia seems more plausible every day. Thus far one year has gone bye and Russia's hold of Crimea seems more consolidated than ever, now people there are even getting used to being russian.
  6. zegh8578

    zegh8578 Keeper of the trout Orderite

    Mar 11, 2012
    I'm sure it was thoroughly covered in Nigeria and surrounding countries at the time.

    Sometimes it is understandably annoying that one case gets the focus over another case, but other times it should be expected that an event in the middle of France, gets a lot of focus from, well, France, Germany, Britain, and the most immediate surrounding countries.

    It's not like we aren't informed of what's happening in Nigeria, after all, we are discussing it, aren't we?

    During the Charlie thing I felt as if it was suddenly a kind of competition - who's the most worthy dead? Who's the most unworthy? In the end, there were people going as far as to mock the dead of either side, in order to bring focus to the other.
  7. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Who's talking about justfying anything here? But you simply have to agree that it sounds a bit strange when a nation like the US complains about Russia while they are runing around bombing nations to kingdom come and can't solve their shit with guantanamo. And I can't help it but laugh when our politicans in Germany talk about Putin like he's a madman while we have no problem with idiots like Berlusconi or some other garbage like Orban. But yeah, let us all hammer down on Russia. It's not just about that we arn't perfect. It's about the fact that we are doing the exact same shit like Russia. All. The. Damn. Time. And we give a flying fuck about others. We sell weapons to dictators, we bomb the shit out of civilans and when it suits us we call them terrorits because it makes us feel like the good guys.

    No ones talking about the Russians beeing correct here. All I am saying is that the truth is probably more in the midle. We are no saints and they are not evil.

    It's more about a realistic view on geo-politics. When we talk about Ukraine than it is directly at the Russian borders while it is foreign affairs for the US. So far I can't see why we or the US are the "better" players here since we are pulling at Ukraine for years, supporting at least questionable groups and politicans. I am not sure what you mean about "responsibilities". What kind of responsibilty do we have, why do we have more responsibility in Ukraine compared to Somalia? The West, Europe (France, Germany, Britain) and the US help others ONLY when it suits them, not because it would be right, not because they feel responsible I mean seriously you once called me naive, but you can't believe that our politicans are doing this because of altruism. Let us be serious, foreign policy has nothing to do with moral or responsibility. It is about interests. Sometimes those interests overlap with those ideals, but that just makes it easier to act. At the end of the day its about cold hard economical facts. US energy companies trying to get a foot in Ukraine, European politicans looking for a chance to gain some influence in a nation that is next to Russia.

    See. That is exactly the main problem here and why like 3/4 of the world hates us, I mean really hates us because it's this kind of arrogance (I am not talking about you directly here) as we live and think like we are levitating above the rest where our moral and our words are the way to go and everyone should listen while we believe that no laws - particularly international laws, count for us because we won the cold war. Is it so outlandish to think for a minute that others, even if they are "questionable" like Russia, China etc. have serious concerns? I feel that you have more in common with those people than you might admit, simply for the fact because they have the exact same fears like you do, just from the oposite side. They think about the NATO and Europe the same way you think about Russia. And it is this kind of mistrust and that has lead us to some of the hotest episodes in the cold war.

    You're talking about this like Germany had a real choice. I am saying in Russias position. Was Germany ever in Russias position after WW2? The US, France and Britain have been tough. And they have never ever been very keen about giving up any of their teritories, what ever if they now got their hands on it rightfully or not. I am pretty sure I don't have to name any examples of the recent history here.

    Defintely. Absolutely. I 100% agree with you. We are totally d'accord. High five! You rock!

    Here comes the catch though. This can only work as bilateral story. We can't preach to Russia and do shit like the Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq etc. at the same time and breaching international law at every corner just because we think it is the "correct" thing to do. Either the laws count for everyone or no one. As far as I know you have some juridical education. A theft stays theft even if the crime was done because of noble motives.

    Indeed, and we all know how his plans in Russia worked out in the end.

    So? That's not just what I say. There are people like the respected journalist Gabriele Krone and former Nato General a. D. Kujat and many others which agree with that idea. And they feel that sanctions will hurt us more than Russia in the end. Because they will solve nothing. Definitely not "forcing" Russia back into our arms. I mean would sanctions from Russia force us to do anything?

    Or the Oranges attacking the Apples. But that was a completely different story. If you seriously believe that Russia has any ambitions of attacking Europe or anyone else (outside of Ukraine) than you are as crazy like the people that believe that NATO is out there to crush Russia. And I thought we wanted to get away from this cold-war ideology.

    True enough. I again agree with you here. But we have to accept the fact that it is a big motivation for many people. Propaganda happens on all sides.

    NATO membership isn't just about military units. It goes much further than that. It is about influence. Economics. Geo political interest. There is no doubt about Ukraine as strategicial and economical point of interest. For all sides. Is it so hard to to believe that American intersts in Ukraine are rather about pipelines and gas rather than human rights? That we are not so different from Russia when it comes to our motivations. YOU want the people to be free and to support them. I have NO(!) doubts about your motivations. None. I know you well enough as a friend. But I have serious doubts when it comes to the motives by the people that actually make the decisions in this case. And this counts for Putin as much as it does for Obama or Merkel.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2016
  8. Sub-Human

    Sub-Human -

    May 31, 2011
    Crni, I can turn around and say - why are you criticizing the West? Lavrov and Putin claim that nobody should meddle in Ukrainian affairs but then send their soldiers and start a coup in South East Ukraine and Crimea. Or they talk about giving self determination to Ukrainian people but the last referendum in Russia was in 1992 - they are illegal under Putin. But yeah - let's just ignore Russian crimes and hammer down on NATO.
  9. Gonzalez

    Gonzalez Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2004
    This from the guy that previously said that two wrongs don't make one right. And I just got to love how easely you disqualify any action Russia could possibly undertake with your statements. It's like when Tagz says that my viewpoints on the Malvinas are irrelevant because I'm not impartial being argentine myself and that anything my government says is invalid for the same reason, but british arguments are valid.

    All we have to say is Puttin's government is illegal because... corruption! And bam! They have no right to... anything really.

    I'm just amazed how resistant to the idea that maybe there is not one absulute right and one absolute wrong some people can be.
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  10. TheGM

    TheGM The voice of reason

    Aug 19, 2008
    That's probably because Argentina never owned the Falkland Islands.
  11. Gonzalez

    Gonzalez Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2004
    Well, there were those 5 minutes in 1983, and better send more forces down there because we are going to take them back again soon. didn't you hear? The ruskies are going to help us. :grin:
  12. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Because we are doing a lot of shit?

    At the end of the day we are not better than Russia. This counts for the US as much as it does for Europe.
  13. Sub-Human

    Sub-Human -

    May 31, 2011
    Corruption is definitely a problem in the Russian government, but the sole reason? You really have no clue, or just purposefully ignoring even recent murder of a politician Nemtsov, let alone the multiple crimes of the regime like annexing sovereign territory of Ukraine?

    My comment to Crni was sarcastic (I thought I made it clear enough). Crni says 'we cannot criticize Russia because the West is guilty'. So I say - 'we cannot criticize the West because Russia is guilty'. Does it make sense? Of course not! It is stupid. But this thread we were discussing Russia, then suddenly you absolutely must put in US, CIA, all of their Cold War deeds when the Russian Federation didn't even exist, all of their previous administrations that have been elected out of the office years ago.

    You know, they used to cut people into five different parts. Or burn them alive. Or saw them in half. So why is the UN criticizing China's handling of prisoners? This is international injustice! The evil, hypocritical Europe with their double standards!
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2015
  14. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Because it's true? We are not hypocritical in our actions? Today we tell the Russians how shit they are for supporting groups with weapons in Ukraine and tomorrow we sell tanks and other weapons to the Arabian states of which are all cruel dictatorships. The people we support today as Rebells are suddenly the IS of tomorrow and we call them terrorists.

    Well done Europe! *Claps hands*, you know how to stand by your morals. Or didn't we work together with Gaddafi because of Al Qaida before we decided one day, oh, but he's one of the bad guys. Remember that Gaddafi was even here to visit Europe in Brussel shaking hands with our glorious leaders? But he was Hitler, remember? So, was Gaddafi less of a dictator before all of this?

    Boy, this arrogance, this fucking European arrogance, and I say this as someone who LOVES(!) Europ and the EU, despite the fact that a lot of people do everything they can to destroy it - like the right wing and some of our politicans. But the reality is that outside of our little bubble we treat other nations like shit. We always have. We always will. It's simply profit. What else? Does it mean there are places worse than Europe, sure, but we are hardly in a position where we can tell them what is right or what is wrong, not to mention that they don't give a shit. Most of the world hates us, and we don't even realize why. We tell China today what kind of assholes they are for their politics just to continue tomorrow our buisness with them. And the same shit happens with Russia. In a couple of years someone will use all of this as excuse for the economic situation here in Germany and why they have to cut on funds and outsourcing jobs or what ever. It's the Russians fault! And not our stupid sanctions that did nothing to solve the issue.

    Hey. I mean it is alright to have some opinion. It is alright to throw some criticism around. It is alright to say what is wrong. Even as politician. But you can not expect others to take us seriously when we are hardly better in our actions.

    I will say this again. How much credibility has a thief talking to another? Why should the Russians even feel like they have to listen to anything we say, no matter if it's correct or not. From their point of view Europe is just a paw from the US playing to their flute. And we sure don't do a lot to give them the feeling that we are someone who you can trust.
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2015
  15. Gonzalez

    Gonzalez Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2004
    You really must think Russia is the only place on the planet where it happens. Like the CIA doesn't assasinates. The ammount of times they tried to assasinate Castro, the ammount assasinated we will never hear about. Damn, assasination via radioactive materials is even in their field manual! But you must think it was a FSB invention and only they use it.

    Your vision is set in a "Russia is evil" mode that won't let you see anything else around you, isn't it?
  16. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Nah Gonzo, we are the good guys. That's what we two obviously don't understand. When we fuck shit up than it's for a good cause.
  17. Sub-Human

    Sub-Human -

    May 31, 2011
    Oh, wow, sure, let's bring up Cold War history. Instead of talking about the US and Russia of today - something actually relevant. How many opposition politicians have been murdered in the US - in its entire history, let alone since the fall of the Soviet Union? How many journalists? How many critics, especially living abroad?

    In a couple years Russia as we know it today will not exist if sanctions are not lifted. You're very confident in Russian economy, despite the fact that it imports everything, from Polish apples and potatoes to German medicine and cars.
  18. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Yes. Let us talk about something relevant.

    You where saying? Granted. Not really journalists and criticis - albeit I would not be so sure that there have never ever been cases where criticis and journalists havn't been eventually bullied into silence, you know you don't have always to kill people to make them shut up, destroying their life can sometimes do the same trick. But it somehow rubs me wrong to know that people are getting killed very often without even knowing their identity or if they are guility.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2016
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  19. Gonzalez

    Gonzalez Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2004
    Listen, guys, we get it, you really don't like the ruskies, that's why you only see negative things, I won't even try to change your oppinion about them, because you've already made up your minds. That doesn't mean everyone else has to agree with you.
  20. BigBoss

    BigBoss Your Local Scrub

    Dec 24, 2012

    Wow. Considering the replies you got to this comment (virtually none), I guess no one cares about Yemen. NEXT!!!!
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