Dead Money, Design Breakdowns

[Brother None]

Oh yeah, breaking it down with our boy MCA <blockquote>Regardless, we were shooting for a Horror experience with Dead Money. As for what we tried to do with Horror, to make the game scary, we tried to do two things - one, have enemies you couldn't headshot and required a different approach (holograms, toxic cloud), and worse, they could headshot you if you weren't careful (bomb collars + radios). My experience with most horror games is that the enemies become scarier when you can't kill the adversaries (which most role-players will try and do if the enemy has any number of hit points or any measurable way to hurt them, no matter how small). So what am I happy about, even if the final result ended up veering from the intention, is watching YouTube playthrough videos where folks (1) start panicking when they hear beeping (exactly the experience we wanted), and (2) seeing players take a step back, figure out the puzzle, and then study the environment to solve it (again, what we wanted).

As for Horror: Things get scarier and tense when you can't escape, no one's coming to help you, and your resources are limited, and Dead Money was built around this. Watching the YouTube playthrough footage where players started re-appreciating chems and Stimpaks made me happy - these things are miracles of medicine, and they should be viewed as such and appreciated for that in the world of Fallout. One issue I've always had with Fallout is it's really easy to amass a lot of chems and stims, so much so you lose the sense of wonder and relief when you get these items, and I feel situations like in Dead Money can give you a new appreciation for food, crafting (we put a higher priority on crafting and supplies to make crafting worth more in the DLC), unconventional water sources, and the joy at finding an otherwise common chem in the Mojave takes on a new level of preciousness when you're in hostile territory. One YouTube video showed someone finding Buffout - and to hear them say, "thank god" and hear genuine appreciation for finding something so rare is exactly the kind of value I want people to attach to these items... usually people seem to care less when they find Buffout, but it all depends on the environment context. I want players to attach value to them again rather than, "oh, more Buffout." It's BUFFOUT. It's a STIMPAK. Your character should be OVERJOYED to find these things, each and every time.</blockquote>

 

[Brother None]

So long as you keep copy-pasting articles between NMA and GameBanshee, I'll keep copy-pasting my comments. :B

Daddy gotta get paid

One thing that game designers have figured out for a while now is that implied danger is scarier than real danger... dying is frustrating, but being kept just on the edge of life with the thread of failure at every turn can be exhilarating, and many modern horror games have figured that out (Silent Hill in particular is a great example).

On the other hand, there's also a strong design current where the game just tries to startle and/or scare you without any actual threat. This needs to go. Now. It is piss-poor design. Not apropos of Dead Money obviously, just in general.

 

[LinkPain]

I'm overjoyed how much thought was put into DLC . Sadly i think I'll wait for all of them to come out , spent over 200 hours on NV . That's too much if you need to pass exams . And i say that because i have faith in Obsidian that they will make all DLCs worth play time and money .

Gonna have to agree that Fallout roots , now with Wasteland waking up from war , are beginning to fade away slowly .

 

[DemonNick]

On the other hand, there's also a strong design current where the game just tries to startle and/or scare you without any actual threat. This needs to go. Now. It is piss-poor design. Not apropos of Dead Money obviously, just in general.

I disagree. Like, so hard. I disagree so hard that your mom can feel it. There's nothing wrong with games startling you when there's no genuine threat. Scares like that create tension. The only problem comes when that's the ONLY scare, since that means that the tension is basically like masturbation but with fear.

Take Vampire the Masquerade. The scariest sequence, the Ocean House Hotel... it's almost all shocks, and less than a third of them can actually hurt you enough for it to matter. I think it's a pretty good balance. It gives actual weight to the scares because it feels like they could kill you without stuffing the level with capricious deathtraps.

 

[Brother None]

I disagree. Like, so hard. I disagree so hard that your mom can feel it. There's nothing wrong with games startling you when there's no genuine threat. Scares like that create tension. The only problem comes when that's the ONLY scare, since that means that the tension is basically like masturbation but with fear.

That's....what I said.

 

[PlanHex]

BN, I think you need to qualify that statement above, since the last two posts have taken complete opposite meanings from it.

I like it when games are just atmospheric with no real threat of death, as in the first hub-area of Amnesia: The Dark Descent.
There'd be constant noises and stuff like that to keep you on your toes, but there's only a couple of instances during the 1 hour playtime that can actually hurt you, and you will most likely not die at all.
Kinda like the VtM:B Ocean House that was mentioned.

edit: DAMN YOUR NINJA WAYS!

 

[Brother None]

Amnesia is not a good example because even when there is no "combat" threat your insanity is constantly under pressure by the sights you see and the daaarrrrknneeessss. There are solid ingame mechanics to make the threat of insanity real to you, in other words.

A better example is many of the sequences in BioShock 2. It has a lot of moments when it's trying to scare you but it's too easy to catch on that there's no real threat. "The entire level is flooding RUN", and then it gives you forever to walk out of the level at your own pace.

 

[Surf Solar]

I didn't really see Dead Money as "horror" - it just had a good atmosphere of Survival and such, but not really "horror".

 

[PlanHex]

Stuff

Ah, right. I get your meaning now.
No arguments here.

 

[Crni Vuk]

the one or other might remember AvP1 on PC ? That game was in my eyes pretty scary. Mainly for 2 reasons. You had only a limited number of times you can save (depending on the difficulty) AND it was rather hard to survive. God I loved that game. Now there you really would jump sometimes because you had to fight alone and could die quick. Without really danger scary situations kind miss their point in my eyes. But I cant tell anything about the DLC. Just saying.

 

[Bad_Karma]

It really comes down to keep the player guessing if a threat is real or not. As soon as you don't have to guess the scare-factor seems to go down.
So i would say it's not just about games who forget to have real thread but also ones who forget to have phases of relaxation. But that's just my opinion.

The motion trackers in AvP games (and even in the movies) were therefore a very great device. Is it just a freakin' lift going up and down or is it another Alien?

 

[LinkPain]

After killing about 10 standard human enemies you walk through the door into the building and begin searching for clues . There's blood stained trail and lights in the hall begins to fade away slowly . Light bulbs pop up for some strange reason , electric buzzing and static on your radio speaker . You think "Damn , this is so lame , i can almost see something coming."
You activate your flashlight , steady your gun and walk more only to find parts of some ravaged body . There is a clue , some insane talk ....ok, let's just leave it for now but first deliver a bullet into it's head . Nothing , one bullet less . After all that walking and searching for anything interesting except blood and gore you realize there is no background game music . Something is definitely wrong , you can feel it in your spine but nothing is appearing as you look up and down left and right in the room . You walk on more and there's some light at the end of the sterile clean hall and an elevator door . Pointing your gun you open them , and there nothing in there too , it's perfectly clean . As you enter that empty and clean elevator you think :
"Hell wtf those guys didn't bother to add some music or noise to scare me , my gun is locked and loaded and let the bastards come , although i don't have that much ammo so let's conserve it"
You press the key to start it . Hummm hummm , boring , i got my gun i'm covered , you sit back relaxed on your chair . Suddenly lights go out for no reason . Lame...we saw that coming right ? You activate your flashlight , BOOM! , some ugly damn little ring lookalike girl appears in the dark beside you where once was nothing and screams your eardrums out . You unload the whole damn clip into her , half scared half pissed . She ain't there after all . Thinking : "godamn , i hate that crap" and then "heh , so what , it doesn't matter , just a small scare ."
At last you realize : "did i just unload my whole clip into nothing? AMMO dumbass AMMOO!"
Elevator doors open . Ok , let's go fetch more ammo . Shall i go into that dark room over there or this one over there . No ammo in either one.... FUUuuuuuu!


^
FEAR , good old .
I want something like that in Fallout

 

[DemonNick]

I disagree. Like, so hard. I disagree so hard that your mom can feel it. There's nothing wrong with games startling you when there's no genuine threat. Scares like that create tension. The only problem comes when that's the ONLY scare, since that means that the tension is basically like masturbation but with fear.

That's....what I said.

That's not really what I got from it.

Although actually, come to think of it, there isn't really any genuine threat in the Ocean House. The stuff that can kill you, the elevator, the steam... it's all trivial to avoid and you have warning about it either through visual or audio cues. So maybe it does count as one of those things with just shocks.

 

[Walpknut]

Talking abotu Horror in game I never understood why people said that the Resident Evil games were super scary, for me it was more like a meta fear of losing the last hour of nothing because the game decided to put in some instant death trap, the situations in the game weren't scary (I mean the enemies were oversized animals, OOOOOOoooooooh like a kid horror house) and the fixed camera angles were pure nonsensical bullshit, coupled with the horrible control. maybe it helped that I played them when the hype about them had died down a little and I was older than most peopel when they first played it.

 

[Tagaziel]

A better example is many of the sequences in BioShock 2. It has a lot of moments when it's trying to scare you but it's too easy to catch on that there's no real threat. "The entire level is flooding RUN", and then it gives you forever to walk out of the level at your own pace.

It's even better when you stop and ask yourself "Wait, why am I running? I'm a fucking Big Daddy for Ryan's sake, I'm built for floods and diving."

 

[Ilosar]

Yet an armor that can easily withstand crush depth is useless against pistol bullets and wrench hits from raving lunatics Bioshock 2 had tons of questionable design decisions.

On topic, I would not say Dead Money is horror either (especially when you enter the casino proper) but survival is the right word here. They really nailed the feeling that the place was friggin dangerous, as a post-apocalyptic wasteland should sometimes be.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Yet an armor that can easily withstand crush depth is useless against pistol bullets and wrench hits from raving lunatics Bioshock 2 had tons of questionable design decisions.

Well bullets and underwater preasure are not reall the same I think. Though just saying.

 

[archont]

It's hard to create a good scare. Gameplay systems are logical and often simple constructs, gamers, especially the more experienced ones, will quickly dissect an experience and figure out the actual danger the horror element represents, when it's going to appear, what they can expect.

People fear the unknown and that's the key point. A game calling itself a horror game has to not only prevent the player from getting to know and understand the threat, but every so often intentionally shake and undermine his understanding of it, as it is. Plainly, a tactic that the player thought to be foolproof - isn't, the player's understanding of the underlying horror design philosophy and approach - flawed and outthought.

The player needs to feel that he is in control of his avatar, but build a sense of dread, never really making the player feel he can control the overall situation, even if it appears to be the case at the moment. That he has little idea of what's going to happen next, that once he thought he had an idea of what's going on, he really doesn't.

This means placing a lot of red herrings, toying with the player, surprising him. For example at a certain point in the game the player could recieve an awesome-looking weapon with subtle cues and indications that it is going to change the dynamics of gameplay and make the player the hunter. Then make the player shoot a civilian with it, make him waste all ammo on something else before the real monster is encountered or simply make it ineffective against the threat. If the game can make the player feel that he has made a critically bad decision (especially if, in reality, there was no decision to be made) the better.

I think a system like L4D2's director would be the ultimate tool for this. Player is closely watching doors? Make the monster appear in the window. Is the player paying less attention in a particular area, considering it's safe? Destroy that preconception. If done properly this could give the player the unnerving feeling that he isn't merely progressing through a static series of events, but something is actively watching and working against him.


And one important thing, horror often has to be subtle. Anthropomorphic characters are cute, but a nearly-perfect if emotionless human face on a robot can be unnerving. Nearly human is more alien than an actual alien.

Edit: There's so much unexplored potential in games. Like portals - open a door to a shack and see that the room inside is actually much bigger than the shack itself. Dynamically-changing geometry (was there a door here like two minutes ago or am I lost?) and 3rd wall breaking (why is my facebook profile picture plastered on the serial killer's dining room wall along with in-game victim characters?)

Edit2: And I'm still eagerly awaiting the moment when a game simulates a crash to desktop only for you to see that your desktop is melting and blood is coming out from under icons. But only if the game detects you've been playing for a long while and it's early morning/very late night.

Oh I can only imagine how many bricks would be shat with that trick.

 

[Per]

Edit2: And I'm still eagerly awaiting the moment when a game simulates a crash to desktop only for you to see that your desktop is melting and blood is coming out from under icons.

This happens to me so often I'm kind of numb to it.

 

[archont]

Edit2: And I'm still eagerly awaiting the moment when a game simulates a crash to desktop only for you to see that your desktop is melting and blood is coming out from under icons.

This happens to me so often I'm kind of numb to it.

The surprise part comes in with the realization that you haven't been abusing cough suppressant medicine that day.