Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Yoshi525, Jan 21, 2012.

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  1. zegh8578

    zegh8578 Keeper of the trout Orderite

    Mar 11, 2012
    all this makes me wish norway would grow a pair, and press official claims for jemtland and herjedalen.
    your day is coming, sweden >:I
  2. Gonzalez

    Gonzalez Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2004
    @El Pagano Loco

    Don't worry, it's just that most who insist on arguing against the argentine claim at this point either believe that the islands belong to the strongest conqueror with more powerful armies and the rule of force over reason, or think that you are a mindless zealot who thinks in absolutes for wanting them back.

    Either you are not strong enough to keep them by force or you are an aggressive fanatic for being determined in your convictions. They are always going to find something to criticize.
  3. WillisPDunlevey

    WillisPDunlevey Mildly Dipped

    Feb 2, 2010
    The argument of the islands having to go back to Argentina because they were taken by force is interesting. This would mean that all the brits living there should give the land back to those who were there before them and go back to england.

    if you follow that logic, then all of the white "Spaniards" in argentina should give argentina back to the natives and they themselves should move back to spain. The natives did not freely give up everything to spain... did they?
  4. Gonzalez

    Gonzalez Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2004
    Argentina does not intend to remove the people living there as they are considered argentine citizens because they were born in argentine soil. So is the case of two argentine citizens born in the islands and currently living in Argentina, their birth certificates say "Puerto Argentino" under "place of birth".

    And talking about "white spaniards" is completely ignoring our culture and history. There are no "white spaniards" here, only argentines. The revolution against spaniard domination was made by local native people and people from spanish descent that did not considered themselves spanish anymore and felt more identified with the local native population, they even gave themselves a name to differentiate themselves from spaniards, they called themselves "creoles".

    Contrary to general belief, most argentine citizens from european decent came here as immigrants during the XX century. And they were from many nationalities, including a great number of british immigrants.

    So there are no "white spaniards" here the way there were "white british" in the US. Don't confuse our history with US history, you know, they're no the same thing.
  5. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Then why doing it all? If this isn't about pride only then what is it else? This counts for both sides. Not just Argentina. Again the Brits feel here just as much to be right like Argentina. You have 2 sides. And both sides have claims. And both sides have very good arguments.

    The next part is that I am curious if what you say will be "true". Things change sometimes. And that quite fast. During the 1920s Germans was a rather good place for jews. At least the big cities like Berlin which have been a central hub for open art and culture. Then 1933 things changed. Decades of art, movies and culture have been killed in a very short time.

    Who will guarantee that the people which feel close to Britain will always enjoy a save life on the Falkands? You? Your government? As said. Things can change.

    This leads me to a question though. What do the people on the Falklands think? Do they even want to be part of Argentina? What if 90% of their population actually feels British, thinks British and wants to be British? What if they have felt that way for the last 200 years?

    The issue I have with your logic here is that it seems to completely ignore what happens around argentina. That it seems like only "their" claim holds water. And that very much feels for me like "if they are not with us they are against us!". But I might be wrong though.

    Again. Argentina had once a war about the Island. Britain has proved they want to defend it. Argentina has lost. I know this is unfair maybe. But that is what happened. Maybe it is time to accept it finally. Germany has lost much of its territory in the last 100 years. In the west and east. Should they go around claiming it all back? Would that do anything good? No it would not. The way how you describe it it feels like Argenitna is acting childish about it.

    Maybe they should try to become friend with the brits and one day politely "ask" for it. No clue if that might work. But it would be better then being still "bitter" about the case.
  6. El Pagano Loco

    El Pagano Loco It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Feb 28, 2012
    No need for trolling if you can't continue the argument. What makes it worse it, this wasn't even semi-funny.
  7. zegh8578

    zegh8578 Keeper of the trout Orderite

    Mar 11, 2012
    ^matter of opinion. i think he made a perfectly fair argument.
    he is pointing out that territorial claims can never be "universally true", because there are always two sides battling for it.
    why would germany be a bad example? cus they were evil? cus they lost?

    if i understand correctly, the brits are always open to referendums by the locals.
    look at gibraltar, northern ireland, even scotland. falklands arent The Only territorial dispute concerning the UK, and even less the only dead-locked one in general.

    that said, i think argentina should get them back simply cus the UK holds too many overseas posessions anyway. theyre annoying
  8. Gonzalez

    Gonzalez Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2004
    You don't understand correctly. They never made a referendum in the Malvinas, and they're not interested in it. They never made a referendum in Gibraltar either, they never even asked the inhabitants of Gibraltar for their opinion and they keep using their self determination as an excuse not to return it to Spain.

    The case of Scotland is a funny one. Cameron didn't even knew Scotland had the power of having a referendum to separate themselves from the UK, and now he can't stop it because if he does he can't claim to defend self determination in places like Malvinas and on Gibraltar.

    You guys also keep forgetting things I have already stablished, like the islanders can't get to decide who the islands belong to. They can decide to be british, but not about the fate of the islands. For self determination to be applicable it has to be claimed by a native population and in a territory of their own not violating the territorial integrity of another nation, in the case of the current Malvinas inhabitants they meet neither of these requirements. This is not stuff I just made up, this is international law and UN resolutions.

    @Crni Vuk: Where do you get these theories the people in the islands will be treated the way the nazis treated the jews from? Is it that rumor about nazis escaping to Argentina? Because I can assure you that both the jew and british immigrant population are by themselves several times greater than german immigrants population. Most germans who emigrated to South America actually went to Brazil.

    May I also put as an example a welsh colony in our territory where they live exactly like in Wales and even speak english in welsh accent (they have problems communicating with people in England but not with people in Wales) that shows how our country can respect lifestyles and customs of populations in their territory.

    In any case, in cases like with Malvinas the UN requires yearly reports on the situation of the population to ensure their well being.

    And no, I don't think the british claim is as strong as Argentina's.
  9. Tremer

    Tremer It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Apr 5, 2010
    which are the claims that equal to ours? they invaded the islands and cast out the people who lived there and then they won a war, that was not necesary.

    We (Argentina) will guarantte you that we are not going to change their way of life. We respect the cultures, we have a british hospital that have the same habits the britans have.

    Why will they fell, think, want to be british? does gibraltar, northern ireland, even scotland, to name a few fell, think, want british?
    they are part of Argentina, they always were we help this people always. Their mayority born in the british hospital in Buenos Aires. We help in everything they need, because except soldiers they didnt receibe nothing from england.

    Please tell me what happend around Argentina, i seem to not know what happend. Please enlighten us...

    We were friend of the british before and after they take the island, we asked politely for them and they didnt heard us. During and after the war was when we were not friend for oobvious reason. Now that they negate any Argentinean to step in the island, even the ones that are visiting there loved ones who die in the war
  10. TheGM

    TheGM The voice of reason

    Aug 19, 2008
    after reading the Argentinean claims to the island, nothing is ever going to top them on the funny chart.
  11. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    This is the part I was talking about which sounds to me like "Falklands belong to us! And everyone that thinks otherwise is dumb!"

    You know. The position that argentina here has is the exact same position for the Brits. They think that their claims are "right" as well. You see where this is going? Exactly. Nowhere. I am neutral on the subject. I don't care what claims either argentina or Britain have here. I find it silly to go in a war over a rock. I just don't see why "history" is such an important argument here. Because other people already asked. What about the native population of argentina and "their" claims? Also don't call others trolls. You're not a mod.

    I am not going to make this whole quote pyramid and I will not go further in to this debate then with this

    That I am pretty much the only one talking with you guys over this topic should tell you enough. The people which wanted to have a rational discussion about the subject have already left.

    Seriously. If you guys represent here the "average" argentinian then I am somewhat worried.

    Again. I have no clue about those Falkland thing. I have no clue how the population there actually feels.

    Hence my question was: "what happens if the people on the Falklands actually want to stay with Britain?".

    Some of you explained the claims Argentina has. And to me it seems like they are pretty much all based on "history". And well. I cant say that those sound that reasonable. Otherwise pretty much anyone could claim everything. I mean what about the native americans? The lost German territories? The parts finland lost to Russia/Soviet Union? Etc. You see where this is leading? If all nations would only follow the events of "history" then we would see many more conflicts. Borders change over time. Maybe the Falklands will be even one day part of argentina. I just don't see that to be any realistic goal in the near future.

    When you talk about the people of the Falklands then please come up with some source now because it is tiresome to always ask the same questions. I have no fucking clue what the people on the Falklands think. Did anyone ever bothered to ask? I am sure someone did. So what is actually their opinion. Do they want to be part of argentina? From all the questions I have I get only answers by you here. But that is no "guarantee" in my eyes. Not for the people on the Falklands at least. Today you tell them "nothing will change". And 20 years later the people have to move. And then you might see Britain going to war again. - Who knows? Its not like this would be the first time something like that happened.
  12. WillisPDunlevey

    WillisPDunlevey Mildly Dipped

    Feb 2, 2010
    No one cries for Carthage... Give it back to them! They deserve it!

    While we are at it, Britain should be given back to the native Britons. The French (normans), Scandinavians and Germans (rulers of Britain) should all get out.
  13. Tremer

    Tremer It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Apr 5, 2010
    Would you realy care if i show you the opinion of the people of Malvinas? or you only going to said but the british have the same position and both are right :roll: .

    Try to search by yourself, news of how they received the prince Guillermo or search for interview that they make to the people
  14. El Pagano Loco

    El Pagano Loco It Wandered In From the Wastes

    Feb 28, 2012
    Wow, didn't know there's a requirement for that. :lol:

    If the parts below aren't just a pure retarded unfunny trolling then i don't know what they are.



    Are you for real? So countries are not supposed to defend their territory against an invading army? Maybe Ruskies should invade Sussex and turn it into an enclave. I'm sure if they squat there for about 20 years the Brits will have to stop acting all childish and shit and let them have it. I mean for how long can they be bitter about it before they just do the mature thing and let them have it. No reason to act like children right? :lol:
  15. zegh8578

    zegh8578 Keeper of the trout Orderite

    Mar 11, 2012
    pagano, "their territory" changes over time, thats what vuk is trying to say.
    what is one nations territory in one century, isnt their territory the next.
    you cant dismiss ALL of those territorial disputes, while glorifying the one single argentinean one.

    what about bolivia?
    wasnt parts of/all of bolivia part of the pre-argentine la plata confederation? or would that be irrelevant and silly to include?

    where do we draw the border from a territorial claim being irrelevant and silly, to absolutely dead serious?

    germany held half of what is todays poland. are they entitled to invade poland again?
    "lol, no! dont be silly!"
  16. Sander

    Sander This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Jul 5, 2003
    Yeah, cut out the personal attacks already. That goes for everyone in this thread.
  17. White Knight

    White Knight Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    Aug 28, 2010
    Do you mean Prince William? As far as I know, they are fine with that.
  18. Joelzania

    Joelzania Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    Oct 12, 2011
    Yes please.
  19. Gonzalez

    Gonzalez Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2004
    Again, if you want to keep talking about such things you are first really going to need to study a lot about south american history. Otherwise you're just going to keep comparing apples with oranges.

    That aside, at this point any fight between south american countries would be a civil war. We are all part of the region, we are the "Patria Grande". The interest of one of us are the interest of all of us.

    In that context, a british enclave deep in South America would work against the interests of all south americans. Britain is not interested in helping us, just in helping themselves.

    You just reminded me of the argentine women married to an islander who was denied help delivering the baby in the islands because she was argentinean. In the end they both ended up moving here and the islander requested the argentine nationality. After that he received threat calls telling him he was a traitor and that if he ever returned to the islands he would be shot.

    The problem with the islanders is that they are more south american than they'd like to admit. They use our health care, our education (education in the islands is until age 15), buy our products, etc. They want to live in an idyllic comfort zone supported by us, but at the same time agree to be used as an excuse for britain to maintain their power over the region.

    There was no referendum made, and most of the claims that every single islander wants to be british comes from the local government, run by an elite, and where supreme power is held by a de facto representative of UK central government they don't get to elect.

    That said I don't think that 2000 islanders, for who their way of life wouldn't be affected in the least if the islands belonged to Argentina since they depend on South America for most things anyway, should be used to bring instability to an entire region just out of an alleged local british "patriotism".
  20. mobucks

    mobucks i get such a kick out of myself Orderite

    May 22, 2010
    What are the falklands?
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