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Discussion in 'NMA News and Information' started by Proletären, Jan 15, 2021.
What about Resurrection?
But this is true. Navmeshes do break on ESP files... This has been known for at least 20 years now, some people say it also happens on FO3, and others say it might happen in Oblivion too.
The thing is that many times, people don't realize what is broken because they don't see the problems (they happen behind the scenes) or just attribute the problems to be caused by "it's a Bethesda game, it has random problems". The majority of people that refuses to stop using mods that are generaly broken or incompatible with TTW is because "it works for them without problems" because they don't directly see ingame how their game is broken.
If you don't believe the TTW team, here's some examples of others helping people with their navmesh problems in esp files:
Spoiler: Navmes and Esp, a broken relationship
Notice how this one was posted in January 2 2011:
Another one from 2011, this one in October 11 and from rickerhk, which is someone that knows what he's talking about:
Here's Chucksteel in 2015, talking about it and other issues with esp files. Chucksteel is the author of the popular "Interiors Project" mod series for FO3 (DC Interiors Project), FNV (NV Interiors Project) and FO4 (Beantown Interiors Project), so he has a lot of experience with new interior cells and custom and edited navmesh:
The second post on this one already talks about the problem:
And there's plenty more if someone puts more time than 2 minutes (that's the time I put int this) into searching the internet.
About the scripts breaking, I have no idea since I never looked inside that mod, but it might have to do with how FO3 and FNV have a bug where they load temporary records as persistent, if it's an esp plugin but load them correctly (as in, the script will not run) if it's a esm plugin.
This is talked about in this thread:
This is the biggest problem with converting some mods from esp to esm that edit or add navmeshes, because they might have stuff that is not flagged persistent in them, and then it would break when converted to an esm (so navmeshes work properly).
So I'm assuming that the talk about the Simply Uncut navmeshes and broken scripts was something like this:
"Simply Uncut has problems, because it's an esp file and edits navmeshes, that means that those navmeshes are broken, and to make matters worse, since it has references and/or other things that are not flagged persistent, we can't really convert it to an esm to fix the navmeshes. Because that would break it's scripts, due the esp file bug that makes them work on non persistent stuff."
All of this would be true, if the mod Simple Uncut does make changes or add navmeshes and has scripts targeting things not flagged as persistent.
I hope this helps you realize that it wasn't misinformation, it was actually true and has been known and tested for more than 2 decades. The misinformation is usually from people that say stuff "works without a problem" for them. Just because someone doesn't notice or see the issues unless they are right in front of their character's eyes, doesn't mean that there's no issues.
CTD when entering buildings, waiting or sleeping are usually caused by the game's Auto Save function (or some auto save mods that might have some issues too), this is also well known and it's recommended to disable the game's auto save function, while using a more modern auto save mod (unfortunately the popular CASM is a bit buggy in some situations), the recommended auto save these days is the one included in lStewieAl's Tweaks.
Other things that will cause CTD are mods with broken Mesh models, installing TTW without having clean and vanilla FNV or FO3 games (like having mods installed in those, or having remains of mods in the games' Data folder), broken mods or mods that are incompatible with TTW (when using TTW obviously ), mods with badly made scripts, using too many mods without the Mod Limit Fix mod, Windows OS (yes, Windows can and sometimes will crash your game when Windows update, run scans, etc), highly aggressive defense/protection software, some overlays (like Steam overlay or Overwatch overlay for example), NVSE buggy functions, NVSE plugins with bugs, having the game installed in a Windows protected directory (under any "Program Files" directory), and even using large texture replacement packages (the game will run out of memory and crash).
TTW crashes much less than FNV or FO3 by themselves, due to some engine bugs we fixed.
If you were using Mod Organizer 2 (I'm not assuming you didn't used it, I'm assuming you used it), then no mod would directly affect your FNV installation, so no mod could directly corrupt your game (save game files could still get corrupted).
What could happen is when the game CTD, it might corrupt some of the mod's files. This can make it so FNV with the mod installed, will not go past the starting screen or crash before showing the main menu (When the Start, Continue, Options, etc appear on the screen).
The problem here is that when a game or other software CTD, there's always a chance it will get corrupted, this is the natural behavior of any software that CTD. There's always the chance of file corruption in these cases, specially in older software. This is not the blame of mods, but just how CTD work.
This is very rare, but it can happen.
If TTW was the cause of CTD corrupting the entire game, we would have had many people asking for help with this problem. I don't have recent numbers now, but the mod was "unique" downloaded more than 50.000 times just in the first 2 months of the release of the 3.2 version back at the end of 2018. We would definitely have been made aware of this issue by now, but the only people that ever came up to us with this problem was always found out to be caused not by TTW itself, but by one of the previous reasons I posted a few paragraphs above.
I can understand the frustration you might have felt, this would annoy me too. And I'm sorry you have had to deal with this issue. But I can guarantee that TTW wasn't the direct cause for the game corruption.
Honestly the project lead doesn't seem like that bad of a guy overall, he just let his team have tooo much freedom and not near enough oversight. I wouldn't blame him as much as the rest of the team.
Archimedes II 2: Archimedes II Harder: Electric Boogalo 2
That's because he's actually not a bad guy. I've known him for almost a decade and he's pretty nice.
He was also not really a project lead in the literal sense. He was more of a manager, trying to make the team finish the mod. He took over after the previous lead left the team, because he knew the mod would never be finished without someone pushing the team members, making them actually work on the mod.
He wasn't involved in the content decision, or the mod story, or anything about the mod really. All of that happened during the previous lead time.
And to be honest, he was super burned out of being in the Frontier team, he had decided years ago, that once the mod was released he would quit the team. The Frontier team was always disconnected and disorganized, and that burned him out years ago.
Just for reference, several TTW team members were invited to join the Frontier (at one point or another) and after they hanged around their Discord channel and tried to get acquainted with their workflow and how stuff worked in that team, they all left before a week had passed.
I really wouldn't have had the force of will of being the lead guy of such a team at all... And I really don't know how he managed to put up with it for so long, although it was taking a toll on his mental health. Even before all of this shitstorm happened he was already considering that he would quit modding.
Shit, his reputation is FUBAR'd and he'll be remembered as lead for mod that crashed and had horrid, perverted shit. He'll be mocked and ridiculed everywhere he goes on internet.
Edit: Wasn't he caught lying though?
It just rhymes as poetry.
To be honest, you ask any veteran modder if New Vegas is a good game and most will tell you it's a horrible game.
Most of the time we don't even know how the game works in the condition it is... It broke several important things in the game's engine (like the environmental sound for example), it's rife with tons of bugs and stability problems, it's yanky, still has the stupid Karma system, the economy is totally broken (even more than in FO3), and I could go on for a long time.
It's a horrible game indeed, and yet it's one of the best and most fun action RPGs ever made. Just goes to show that a game doesn't need to be good to be excellent.
He tried to shit on NV but forgot to pull down his pants.
Who says he even wears pants?
The amount of patience it must take for him, after all that effort that he put into trying to make the mod a little less shit than it ended up being, to then sit through that interview so he can be berated by 12 year old fascist trolls for multiple hours is much more than I could ever muster. Aside from his failure to provide nearly adequate oversight of his team, allowing them to put in all the garbage that came to define the mod, he seems like someone whose competent of making good mods (at least from what I gather from the YouTube videos with him). It is a bit harder to side with him after how much of an insufferable asshole he and the team were to TkS-Mantis, but hopefully he does come back to the modding scene at some point. Not necessarily for any huge projects, just quest mods and such.
I know Roy certainly isn't it's biggest fan after how much stupid crap he's had to fix. That said though a lot of mad shit was talked as if somehow this was going to be the godsend the game needed. I mean there's a lot of "in retrospect" statements but some hubris and actual team management, not just acting like it, would've gone a long way.
Hell even t he reupload is apparently kind of a mess with someone having to patch in Zu's icons because they simply removed them wholesale?
On the flipside Mantis is an asshole and fired shots first at the project, then pretended he didn't, after he was removed as a voice actor for getting bitchy about sound direction then ghosting them (even if you have COVID, if you're a VA for a project you should keep in regular contact with them). Let's not pretend he's some hero in this drama.
RoyBatty, worked a lot on TTW. We talked heavily on all the weird mesh shit and whatnot he had to fix from NV.
This sounds to me a lot like what happened to the 1996 version of The Island of Doctor Moreau. Many of the project leads end up dipping out, there is no direction, some members of the team are Prima Donna's in that it is their way or the highway, another lead is called in to finish the project. It was a disaster waiting to happen. Hell, I will go on to say that this mod is the video game version of The Island of Doctor Moreau. It is, quite possibly, the most disastrous mod ever made.