I liked the Brotherhood of Steel's portrayal

Discussion in 'Fallout 4' started by CT Phipps, Dec 18, 2016.

  1. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    I think it's the best thing about Fallout 4, in fact. I imagine part of this is due to the fact I was really invested in the Lyons Brotherhood and actually interested in what happened to it after the events of Fallout 3. I found the idea of Elder Lyons trying to make the reforms which Veronica wanted to make and ending up with a fascist conquest-minded organization to be a really interesting twist on the old formula. Also, the fact a kinder interpretation of the group is that it's actually the new canon version of the Midwest brotherhood of Steel since they existed but clearly didn't become the group they had the potential to be.

    Arthur Maxson is also a character which possesses things which the other characters in the game lack in terms of backstory, gravitas, a cool look, and also a significant role in the story. There's some flaws in the story because we never really got a reason why he's such a genocidal racist but you can certainly believe people would follow him. Players also have an interesting mystery with whether or not he's a puppet of the WCBoS or whether he's his own man or some combination of the two.

    I think the game could have been significantly improved if they'd dialed down the presence of the two least interesting factions (Railroad and Minutemen) to focus on a Gray and Gray Morality between the Institute and the Brotherhood of Steel with the rest of the Commonwealth caught in the middle. You could actually have the war going on full-stop by the start of the game as well like the one in the Mojave. I also don't think you actually need the "destroy Synths" plot and can just have the BoS out to take the Institute's technology because that's what the BOS does.
  2. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    The BOS portrayal was the only competent thing in the FO4 plot. Their quest design and actual characterization of important characters tho was just as weak as everything else in the game. But at the very least they were no longer Bethesda's half hearted attempt at transfering a Knights of the Round table faction into the series.
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  3. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    Alas, it is basically Fallout 4's mantra of, "Good ideas which don't go anywhere." You have an excellent chance to play on the nostalgia factor of the Fallout 3 Brotherhood of Steel and very much there's no actual playing on the nostalgia factor.

    One of the things I wanted to do in Fallout 4 would be to investigate Sarah Lyon's death. Yes, you'd have to say she died in the Commonwealth but if there's 200 year old tapes leftover from the Pre-War everywhere and skeletons, I see no reason why you can't come across a 13 year old skeleton and some tapes from her.

    Maybe have proof positive that she was assassinated by members of the Outcasts working with Scribe Rothschild or whoever.

    I also wanted to know how the Capital Wasteland was doing and what the plans of Arthur Maxson were. Is he really in the Commonwealth to just to destroy the Synths or is it an actual land grab? For example, the BoS could be building an Empire across the East Coast and the Commonwealth would be Phase 2#.
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  4. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    The fact that they seem to be so focused on an aspect of the story that is barely even present or used (the Synths) really hurts any chance of making them fleshed out.
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  5. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    You could also have done a lot of interesting Gray and Gray Morality with them being here for Stehlen, Stehlen Uber Alles.

    Imagine the fan debates where they come to bring order to the Commonwealth at the point of a chainsword.

    Is it a good thing, a bad thing? Both?
  6. CerberusGate

    CerberusGate I should save my game in a whole new slot

    Jun 6, 2016
    Too bad, that never gets fleshed out due to the 'synths are people or not' plot Bethesda threw up (It was rather shallow and plain to me).
  7. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    I actually think the Paladin Danse vs. Arthur Maxson plot getting cut out was a problem too. The idea you could help Danse overthrow Maxson may have had some goofy elements but it provided more options for you as a player character and that's never a bad thing.
  8. Prone Squanderer

    Prone Squanderer A bit of a Sillius Soddus.

    Jan 3, 2016
    I don't like 'em. The whole "Ad Victoriam" bollocks and Maxson (who shouldn't be on the East Coast) killing a SM at 10 and at 13 a Deathclaw all by himself is ridiculous. Not to mention they've essentially turned into the Enclave with their "Kill all mutant life!" rhetoric and destroying the Institute when the actual Brotherhood would want to capture the technology.

    Saying that, I liked the airship and Ingram.
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  9. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    Ad Victorium is a better motto than "Steel be with you."

    Also, the absence of the Lone Wanderer from the story and the fact its deliberately framed as "the official history" for me says that those stories are probably B.S. and propaganda. There's a lot of fascist imagery involved and one of the elements they highlight is the "Cult of Personality" element to him.

    I imagine something similar happened with him but since you take Squires of a similar age on battles in the game then it's entirely probably Arthur Maxson just hurled some grenades and deleted the details. Paladin Danse mentions how much Arthur owes him and I'm inclined to think he isn't the kind to share glory.

    As for Arthur Maxson being with them, I imagine he wasn't the Sole Heir of the Maxson before the War with NCR. The rest were probably killed with the near-destruction of the BOS. It's been 200 years, probably everyone has a lot of the Maxson blood in them now since they're all interbreeding like the Hapsburgs outside of the CW.

    The destruction of the institute I imagine is because of their laziness in design (all the questlines are the same except for the Institute ending) but you could also argue that the Institute is powerful enough to fight the BoS to a standstill and the only way to bring a short but victorious war is to eradicate it in one blow.
  10. Prone Squanderer

    Prone Squanderer A bit of a Sillius Soddus.

    Jan 3, 2016
    Both are as bad as each other. The Brotherhood never used to have a motto, it doesn't need one. Or given it's descended from the US military why not have one of their mottos instead?

    Hmm, I could buy the whole propaganda angle but I have a feeling Bethesda were actually being 100% serious he did those things to make him a badass character.

    No one in New Vegas mentions any Maxsons (IIRC, please correct otherwise) and besides if the Brotherhood was still fighting the NCR, how would they able to establish contact with the East Coast group and then safely send him all that way? Hell, it's easier to believe the EC Brotherhood made it all up and that Maxson isn't actually related to the Maxson bloodline at all.

    Yeah there is a lot of laziness in design. But I don't think synths, as strong as they can be, are any match for mass numbers of soldiers in power armour and armed with lasers more powerful than theirs.
  11. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    The very fact they're descended from the US military is probably why they've got mottos. The military loves mottos, patches, and so on. It's part of the whole culture.

    Danse says Maxson is full of hot air and the original write-up for Maxson is him being overthrown for being an incompetent murderous blowhard. So, I think it's actually propaganda and intended to be obviously so. It's just the plotline which would confirm this was overrun.

    The BoS and NCR went to war after the Lyons chapter left with Arthur. Arthur is in Fallout 3 and that's before the war.

    Yes, because when I see Elder Lyons and Sarah Lyons, I think deceptive geniuses.

    Coursers are really the danger versus the Synths who are simply cannon fodder. I think a Courser in LORE versus a BoS paladin is supposed to be about equal with the fact they're meant to be ultimate superhumans who have armor designed specifically against energy weapons.

    And even so, the BOS could probably defeat the Institute but the cost might ruin Arthur's ability to consolidate his rule over the Commonwealth and Capital Wasteland.
  12. Dr Fallout

    Dr Fallout Centurion

    Aug 17, 2015
    It's good, but the Brotherhood are basically Enclave-lite which is boring and overdone.
  13. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    Eh, it depends on how you feel about Synth sentience and whether they intend to kill non-Ferals or not. For all the BOS' bluster, they only "cleanse" feral ghoul nests and Super Mutants. That's not genocide, that's a day in the life of a typical Fallout protagonist.

    They could very easily go into Enclave-lite territory with nonhumans (not all Wastelanders because they're Wastelanders themselves) but that's Arthur Maxson's influence.

    The fact Danse could become Elder in the original plans means that the majority of BOS don't really have more than disdain for non-hostile inhumans.
  14. Prone Squanderer

    Prone Squanderer A bit of a Sillius Soddus.

    Jan 3, 2016
    Yes, so why not take one of their mottos instead of coming up with something daft like "Steel be with you" or "Ad Victoriam"?

    The West Coast Brotherhood owes its existence to Roger Maxson, why would they send his descendant on a dangerous journey all the way across post-war America?

    I never said they were clever, I said it's more believable than sending a child descended from the original founder of the organisation all the way across a barren, raider-filled, mutant infested wasteland to a place they have no idea whether it's stable or what they'll actually do once they get there.

    There aren't as many Coursers as there are ordinary synths and I just don't see them being stronger than power armoured soldiers.
  15. CT Phipps

    CT Phipps Venerable Relic of the Wastes

    Sep 17, 2016
    Because they view themselves as a new and independent organization versus a continuation of the government which left them to die. Also, there's the fact they may actually like the new mottos, which is really the big issue here in that a lot of fans think they sound stupid.

    The BoS aren't a monarchy and I assume the Maxsons are expected to carry their weight like any other member of the Brotherhood of Steel. After 200 years, again, it's very likely Arthur is far from the only descendant of the bloodline--especially since the BOS only have sex with each other. That means that the only way the descendants of the Maxson bloodline aren't everywhere and it's a weird Isildur situation would be if they were marrying each other--and I hope that's not true.

    Arthur is just the one with the last name.

    Thomas Jefferson's descendants have a cool claim to fame but Arthur rose so high because he was a political convenience. Even his propaganda basically says as much. He was appointed Elder by the Lost Hills folk because everyone else was a miserable failure.

    Elder Lyons actually had a lot of political clout originally. He was a respected and well-loved Elder until he lost his mind trying to defend the disgusting mutants of the Wasteland.

    *sips tea*


    The BOS is also running out of armor since there's a bunch of soldiers without it. What you get for using it continuously for 200 years.
  16. Prone Squanderer

    Prone Squanderer A bit of a Sillius Soddus.

    Jan 3, 2016
    "Ad Victoriam" sounds like it was picked because it sounded cool, instead of having meaning to it like most real military mottos do.

    I am aware they aren't a monarchy, I just don't see why was he sent as a kid across miles and miles of dangerous wasteland then. And he IS the only descendant according to Fallout 3, which also claims internal conflict to be the actual reason he was moved.

    EDIT: What I mean is, if being a Maxson wasn't that important, his life being threatened wouldn't be enough reason to move him all the way across the country, which in itself would be much more dangerous anyway.

    Running out of armour...well they could just take a stroll through the Commonwealth, there's plenty of armour literally standing around waiting to be used.

    Honestly instead of having Maxson as the all-loved and total leader, I'd have preferred to see a kind of military council that was similar to the Western Brotherhood but made up of various section heads rather than all Elders.
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