I'd support Ceasars Legion except [Insert answer here]

Discussion in 'Fallout: New Vegas Discussion' started by Felspawn, Jun 29, 2011.

  1. GatheringCircle

    GatheringCircle First time out of the vault

    66
    Jul 29, 2011
    Caesar isn't going to blindly accept every part of the NCR ideology. He states that he is going to combine the two not overwrite everything he has done. He has done nothing that would make me assume he won't accept the good ideas the NCR. Yes, he does not take cultural influence from nomadic tribes like the vipers or the Khans, but he stated he wanted to stray away from that.

    Next, here is the actual quote of the Caesar takes over ending "Caesar entered The Strip as though it was his Triumph. The Legion pushed the NCR out of New Vegas entirely, driving them back to the Mojave Outpost. The Legion occupied all major locations, enslaving much of the population and peacefully lording over the rest. Under the Legion's banner, civilization - unforgiving as it was - finally came to the Mojave wasteland. "- so if taking some slaves, lording peacefully over the others, and starting civilization is what you call a slave haven, in which nothing has changed, I disagree. They are described in game as a roving army and now they are described as a civilization. The Legion has changed, because now they have a capital that is vastly superior to every city we now of. With the right changes it can be made as a cultural center just as Rome once was.

    The Great Khans surrendered and their men were not killed and the women were sold as wives not slaves. Yes there is a difference, a wife in any culture is treated better than a slave. So no, willful integration (Note surrender after you have lost the war is not willful integration. That is "Okay, even though we were just trying to kill you we give up, now don't kill us.) will not have the consequences you have mentioned. When I looked at the wiki entry for the Kaibabs (second tribe to face the Legion) it did not say that they surrendered or what happened to them. It only states that all 7 tribes were either destroyed or incorporated, but if it the game says something different I would like to hear it.





    The artillery repair and the mission where the Legion wished to purchase laser weaponry were not put there so that the Legion wouldn't be outmatched. And you are right Caesar isn't stupid so he lets his men use whatever will help them get an edge. Also I have never heard any policy on separating the actual lore form the game so I don't think it is fair for you to label something as not canon simply because you think it is not. As for medicine yes he says it weakens the body, because his men are going to build up a reliance on something they hardly have any of. If you get use to stimpacks you are going to have low morale if you don't have any. Also if you check the inventories of dead Legionaries you will find that they usually have healing powder, where as an NCR Trooper doesn't even have that. EDIT: This sentence contained a wiki quote, but after reading ramessesjones's theory that Caesar's current usage of different technologies shows his willingness to accept change, I agree with him. Plus the Legion seems to have lodging, food production, and clothes down pat, because they have more people and they manage to provide all these to it's people. Again if you check the inventories of the opposing factions grunts, the Legionnaire has food in his inventory were as the NCR opposite does not.
     
  2. Ilosar

    Ilosar Vault Fossil

    Apr 20, 2010
    I don't think it's the same thing. Weapons and such are merely tools; bending rules towards these is harmless enough, especially if it greatly helps bringing victory. Ideas are another deal altogether; the Legion is based on slavery and violence, at the very core of their ideology is the fact any other ideas are beaten mercylessly out of it's members. The only one who thinks otherwise is Sallow himself; no other Legion NPC exhibits any sort of belief that they are killing NCR for any other reason than because they are in the way and weak (correct me if I am wrong), no mention of a greater goal, and we speak to the top four of the Legion as far as we know (Caesar, Lanius, Vulpes, Lucius). Maybe, just maybe, the Legion could change, very slowly, and only if Sallow lives enough time to see to it (which is not guaranteed). I won't take that chance, however, as an acceptable society for me is already in place; I will not help tear it down on the off-chance that possibly someone may do something that is a bit better, and at the cost of many more lives and loss of freedom and individuality.

    What part is acceptable? The technology? He has already written it off. The democracy? Please. The individuality? doesn't sit well with a dictator, and he has stated a person in the Legion is just a cog in the machine, he plans for a totalitarian State. The economic system? Capitalism doesn't work very well under a dictatorship, you need freedom of enterprise, which is one-way ticket to free-thinking and questionning autority, not to mention creating wealthy, powerful people than can prove difficult to control. I don't see him absorbing any of the defining traits of the NCR, only minor things like, I don't know, paper money and weapon manufactures. The founding principles of the Republic would destroy the Legion if they were introduced. His ''synthesis'' would basically be a palette swap.

    You mean, like declaring them his sworn enemy? And as I said above, what good idea would fit with the Legion?

    Bolded the important part. ''Much'' is, by convention at least, more than half. I won't describe it as ''some''. The Mojave is a populated place; that many slaves must be put somewhere. And ''lording'' is a relatively harsh word; they certainly have less freedom than before.

    Which clashes with the claim they hold 4 secure states. Unless his roving army is large enough to police that much ground by itself. It's a pretty big inconsistency for me.

    Where does it says they have changed? The Legion still enslaves people. It still razes every single piece of resistence to the ground. It still rules harshly.

    And lost all their eldery, sick, and their tribal identity. Not their best ending (not that they fare much better under NCR rules, but at least there's the slight justification of 150 years of solid antagonism). And the Khans are a tribe like any other; NCR citizens are different. If Ceasar handles them similarily I predict some trouble.

    Caesar says it himself IIRC; they surrendred, and he made an example of them still, making the 4 remaining tribes piss in their boots and join the Legion posthaste.

    Many Legion NPCs are in raiding parties, which are wise to bring their own food; NCR soldiers usually have a base, where food is presumably stored. About the medicine, I don't know, NCR IS stretched too thin, possibly they can't hand out Stimpacks to everybody. Then again, if we follow inventories as clues, Legion soldiers have ears while NCR grunts don't. There's always a bit of a bit of a cleavage between story and gameplay, even in a game like New Vegas that integrates both very well.

    I once encountered two raiding parties at once, both seemingly had their Decanus killed by passing NCR, so it was me alone (Boone breaks the game even under Project Nevada, I rarely take him with me) with a 10mm SMG against 7-8 Recruit Legionaries with Machetes and 1 Caravan Shotgun. Much bullet holes and mountains of corpses ensued.
     
  3. GatheringCircle

    GatheringCircle First time out of the vault

    66
    Jul 29, 2011
    Yes if it helps bring victory, and why do you think he wants victory? So he can make a civilization, and if changing policies helps his civilization then he will do it. Just as he changed rules to win.



    If members of the Legion were treated this bad do you think they would stay? I do not. They would leave as soon as they could. Since most of them are sent out in raiding parties they could just leave as soon as they were sent out. Keep in mind we never hear the NCR soldiers asking or explaining in detail why they fight. The Legionaries know quite well why they fight. They are taught that as soon as they can understand such concepts, and they hear it their entire lives. That is the one thing they are most sure on.

    I do not believe he has written off technology. He uses what helps him, and once he has the damn the NCR are screwed economy wise. Without that threat Caesar can drastically reduce his military and still get rid of the rest of the tribes in the entire region and beyond. Note his goal was to wipe the slate so civilization can start anew. And with all the highly skilled workers the Legion captures along with a smaller military they can start a true civilian sector. This civilian sector will help his civilization flourish and is on of the things he meant by synthesizing with the NCR. He can also use a system of written law, which would help govern all the people he has recently gained governance over. Your acceptable society is not acceptable to me because they use the same system that lead to the destruction of the world in the first place. Plus, the environment the NCR is in is not the same as the ones that allow democracy to flourish. The NCR has a lot (idk how many) of tribes in its territory which only care for themselves. This has lead to crime on a massive scale and will lead to conflict unless you get rid of the tribes. Also when you have an official elected to office, they are not going to cater to the individuals who voted for them, but the individuals with huge amounts of money. They are going to make life better for a few but damn the others.

    It says they have changed because now they have a civilization. Caesar also is going to make New Vegas into a New Rome. And of all the people who have not been enslaved are now living in a crime less city with a flourishing economy and absolute safety form external threats. In fact Wikipedia describes a civilization as "human cultures that are complex in terms of technology, science, and division of labor."- this is a change indeed. And their militaristic attitude and complete removal of all who would oppose them guarantees a long lasting civilization.

    Even if that is true it doesn't demonstrate his current policy, given how treated towns like Primm or the Great Khans which he did not completely slaughter.

    Lastly, yes I know I made many assumptions, but I was merely telling you why I support the Legion. And you are right when it comes to inventory, but I still believe that medical supplies are very sparse for both sides. The NCR has quite a few less people so they have more to go around though.
     
  4. Ilosar

    Ilosar Vault Fossil

    Apr 20, 2010
    What if it doesn't? What if mellowing out puts him at the mercy of a now angry NCR? It's not as simple as just deciding to change an entire civilization that has lived in a certain way for the past 25 years, under your own leadership even.

    Legion soldiers aren't treated badly? What about the ritual of Decimatio? What about Silus telling you punching him ''is nothing compared to Legion training''? What about being raised from birth to do nothing but kill? What about the fear of extremely brutal superiors like Lanius?

    Of course, they have been indoctrinated since birth, they know absolutely nothing else. That's why they don't run off. It doesn't mean they are treated with respect, remember, you are just a cog in a machine in the Legion, this kind of idea doesn't lend itself to much respect for your feelings or your life.

    Holy pile of assumptions, batman. He doesn't need to defeat the NCR and do a ''synthesis'' to create a civilian sector. Nothing is never said about any civilian sector. A totalitarian society doesn't have a civilian sector and a military sector, they are almost one and the same; all exist only to serve the State. And you didn't answer my question about what he could actually take from NCR.

    Take a good, long look at NCR. Then look at the Enclave. Then tell me, straight faced, that these two groups are similar enough to trigger such a comparison.

    I don't understand that quote. Democracy does flourish, nobody ever talks about elections being a fluke or anything. And the NCR is very successful, more than any other society in post-apocalyptic America before it, save maybe the Legion depending on the ending and (especially) you view on human rights.

    Source? And no, the Mojave Wasteland and Zion are not NCR territory. The only NCR territory we see is in Fallout 2, and it's one city. And may I remind you, again, that every single city from the previous game is under NCR now, including Arroyo? And beyond some under-handed ''persuading'' with Vault City (who deserved it. Kind of.), as far as we know, these integrations happened without much violence.

    Again, source? And ''getting rid'' is what the Legion does, not NCR. Save for the Khans, who earned every single bit of misery they have.

    Source? And of course people with more money have more power, it's like that in any system. Doesn't mean the rest are miserable slaves forced to fight and being told they are worthless bodies fit only to fight or work tirelessly all their lives. Oh wait, that's the Legion. From what we see of NCR in FO2, it seems like a nice enough place to live in, save for psychotic ex-cops blowing themselves up.

    Flourishing economy? Absolute safety? Where is it said? And you have one hell of a double-standard; people with money have more power in NCR is badbadbad, but the majority of people being slaves under the Legion (in your purely hypothetical scenario anyway) is OK so long as others don't? What next, slavery is fine and cool but paying taxes is an affront to our freedom?

    I guess it's OK if you aren't completely slaughtered then. I mean, you could live under a Republic with some flaws but a globally good intent and standards of living far above the average wastelander, but instead you could be slaughtered or enslaved, or have a small chance to be lordred over in a dictatorship. I mean, the choice is made in a heartbeat, innit.

    The fact you acknowledge it does you credit.

    And I am telling you why I do not. Then again, this thread is 13 pages of that.

    We don't have numbers, and in-game doesn't say much, but I do not think the Legion is that more numerous. The NCR army is huge, huge enough to take 20 to 1 casualties against the Brotherhood, fight the Khans in an extended war, and still be up and kicking against the Legion for years without it's brutal recruitment methods.
     
  5. GatheringCircle

    GatheringCircle First time out of the vault

    66
    Jul 29, 2011
    Okay you win I will not argue any further in this thread. I promise. :D
     
  6. Green Gecko

    Green Gecko First time out of the vault

    9
    Aug 9, 2011
    Love the Ilosar/GatheringCircle war. The victor will be decided at the dam. :lol:
     
  7. Ilosar

    Ilosar Vault Fossil

    Apr 20, 2010
    The victor has been decided :drunk:. Now hand over that tax money you tossers :deal:.
     
  8. GatheringCircle

    GatheringCircle First time out of the vault

    66
    Jul 29, 2011
    For now Ilosar, be content with your taxes but I will return muhahahahaha. EDIT : I checked the dialogue files and the Kaibabs surrendered, they were not slaughtered.
     
  9. Hurk13

    Hurk13 First time out of the vault

    9
    Aug 6, 2011
    i have a fucking brain....
     
  10. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    that's not proven yet
     
  11. Ophiuchus

    Ophiuchus It Wandered In From the Wastes

    105
    Jul 18, 2010
    Other than shared ideals, the Legion can't offer my Courier a thing; I guess I just like my ideology cake sprinkled with tangible rewards. Should I side with a genius who will let me be his lieutenant? What about serving the largest, most stable form of government in the west? Maybe my Courier would have the right idea instead. Or do I risk everything serving a megalomaniac who might have me brutally killed (at best) for failing to meet his archaic expectations? Catch Caesar during one of his headache days and end up on a cross? No thanks.

    When it comes to game play, as others have stated numerous times, there's just not enough options to justify joining CL. There was a great opportunity for dynamic events (for example, securing Forlorn Hope could've allowed the Legion to turn it into a town comparable to Mojave Outpost) that sadly wasn't utilized. Of course there's always the option of doing a bunch of NCR side quests before joining CL, but I'm not a fan of meta-gaming.
     
  12. Nuka Panda

    Nuka Panda First time out of the vault

    4
    Aug 15, 2011
    So Totalitarianism is totally evil? Hmm.. I guess pre-WWII Germany was just doing fine and dandy before Hitler took over(not saying the Nazi were "Good Natured")

    Totalitarianism gets shit done, there is no red tape... someone says something and it gets done.. Where "Democracy" has to go through many "levels" before its really passed into law. With the NCR having a corrupt senate(Even NCR Troopers will say so, and other high ranking officials)

    Also, with how wonderful the value of life is seen in the wasteland even Lucius will say Slavery was a step up from where he came from.. So honestly, would a "Leaderless" wasteland be better, then a Wasteland under the control of a Dictator? Of course it wouldn't anything is a Step up from "am I going to eat today? or will i Die today?" At least with the Legion you have a strong chance to make it another day. What about Cass and Dale Barton have both said how well the Legion protects it's Supply lines, and anyone who has taken basic World History has seen what happens when your supplies are cut off "An Army runs on it's stomach" With how much taxing and Raider squads hit NCR Caravans, I'm amazed they have lasted this long...

    I would Support the Legion 100% if one thing happened... you didn't have to kill off the BoS. if you could tell them that the Legion is on the march and has a the BoS bunker in it's cross hairs and they should retreat before they are eradicated. Then I would love to spatter the NCR with a War Hammer. :)
     
  13. The Enclave 86

    The Enclave 86 Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    394
    Jul 5, 2010
    No it doesn't, red tape isn't exclusive to democracy but something just has to happen to any organisation that keeps expanding; Caesar's Legion at least has the benefit of making it's residents all conform to a single culture, traditions and such can be a bitch on logistics.

    Regardless, the only red tape we have seen totalitarianism cut through is that of crime and punishment really. The notion that the state can literally manage everything is bound to create more red tape not less.

    There are hermits in Fallout that have literally lived in the wastes away from human contact their entire lives; people in NCR cities have a fantastic chance to "make it to the next day".

    Because the NCR isn't a roving army, it has established settlements and such. Glad you rank feeding a mobile army as one of the most important things on the mind of the new civilisations.

    And that's just one of the few things brought up frequently because it's one of the only good things we see about the Legion. People get mugged less in the lawless wastes under the Legion? Good for them. NCR doesn't have the time to go hunting through every cave system and such for raiders.

    In-fact when you think about it how does the logistically inferior Legion police it's lands? How does it make sure that no raiders and such are hiding in the hills?
     
  14. Ilosar

    Ilosar Vault Fossil

    Apr 20, 2010
    *Sigh* I tought we were done here.

    Haha.haha.haha. No. Wrong. Completely. Just... wrong. Look up the Soviet Union, one of the only totalitarian States who lived for more than a few years (other examples being North Korea. which sucks, and them crazy Nazis who were much less efficient than we think, except in terms of warfare). Red tape, inneficiency and corruption doesn't even begin to describe the clusterfuck the USSR was, trying to control every single little thing.

    The notion that the more ruthless solution is automatically the best and most effecive seems to be the driving idea behind the Legion, and is an enormous fallacy. I will fight this kind if half-assed thinking until my last breath.

    Because that's the point of a democracy. Separation of power. Rule of the law. Due process. Laws are passed slower, but have more chances of not being fucked up (not that it doesn't happen sometimes).

    It was never described as explicitely corrupt. Innefficient, to a point? Yes, sure. Influenced by the upper class? That happens in every society in existence, no need to be alarmed. It seems like people equate corruption, taxes and red tape with slavery, brutality and institutionalized sexism. Seriously, the fact that one is bad doesn't mean the other is better. NCR's issues can be solved, to a degree. The Legion's are ingrained and inherent into the nation's identity.

    You mean, Caesar's third in command and bodyguard, sitting right next to his master? Really unbiased source there. Try getting that kind of confession out of a slave women, who got her legs broken, is forced to carry a massive luggage while the men watch, and probably got raped at some point.

    Leaderless? House is a leader. The Courier is a leader. NCR, once rid of the Legion, is a leader, and a damn good one if the ending slides are anything to go by. I already adressed that point above anyway.

    Yeah, the NCR went from a small village to a million-strong Republic by having it's citizens in constant danger from the Wastes. Oh wait. The Mojave is a no man's land, it's not indicative of what territory under NCR looks like And even then, apart from Freeside and Northside which are slums, nobody seems to starve to death.

    Which is funny, because a stationary army doesn't need supply lines, much. They need infrastructure. Also, since the Legion's modus operandi is to assimilate everything, you can bet people like Cass will be enslaved and put to work as soon as they take the Mojave.

    First, people will always complain about taxes, even if they are really low. Second, waging a war for their protection (read; not being enslaved by the murderous cosplayers over there) requires money, which needs to come from somewhere. Third, Sharecropper Farms and pipelines from Lake Mead. Probably the two most important projects to be built in New Vegas since the War. Look them up.

    Yup, and that's true regardless of the State's ruthlessness. Contrarily to what Mussolini claimed, the trains in Fascit Italy most definitely didn't run on time. Look up this http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoDelaysForTheWicked

    This is exactly what happens to the Legion. They seem to magically have no problems of bureaucracy, supply lines (you need more than a few merchants to supply such a huge army), and logistics, despite having to hold 4 entire States and wage a prolonged war AND being described the Sawyer himself as a ''roving army''. It doesn't make much sense.

    I suppose their methods scare criminals shitless, for a time. But yeah, when the actual Legion is gone, who polices that much land? Because Montana and New Mexico aren't small States. You need thousands of troops apiece to police them effectively, especially in post-apocalyptic America, and especially since the Legion doesn't seem to have an actual police force, just an army.[/quote]
     
  15. The Enclave 86

    The Enclave 86 Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    394
    Jul 5, 2010
    [/quote]

    Indeed. I mean the NCR's vastness is what makes it *supposedly* less safe, but the Legion is even more technologically inferior and equally vast. Only it's extreme punishment of criminals keep it safe but they'll be waiting, to suggest that nothing goes on within Legion land without them knowing is silly.

    A bunch of Legion soldiers are walking down a road and get destroyed by a highly armed gang, bodies dragged off and no trace left, who's going to find them? They'll have records of the patrols route but no other indication.

    I refuse to accept that the Legion's *solution* is anything other than temporary or at least not permenant. They need to keep the fear up or the lawless will just come crawling out of the woodwork; look what's happened here in the UK the second that there was a lapse in security.
     
  16. Bad_Karma

    Bad_Karma Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    364
    Jun 17, 2007
    The problem i've got with the Legion is quite simple. They don't show how they're able to rebuilt anything. And please don't try to mention Fort "Crap" ;)
    They're focused on destroying things in the game. And destruction alone doesn't lead to civilization. Never did, never will.

    Sure a lot of historic persons first wiped their foes and tried to wipe the identities of the one he conquered. But as far as i'm aware, it never functioned without giving them something new, something better. And that's what missing in the ingame representation.

    I mean sure we got a lot of people in the game itself talking about what's good about the Legion and what's not. But i'm a guy who doesn't belive what people are saying without at least some belivable hints that they might speak the truth (especially true for a RPG).
    So NCR, House, Graham, BOS and a lot others are telling me how bad the Legion is? Well i can belive that, i mean i saw enough examples in the Mojave for that.
    The Legion and few other telling me the Legion is better? Erm well, didn't see any example for that.

    I'm willing to join the 'Evil faction' if i think their idea might work and at least in some way improve live for humanity.
    The Enclave sure was evil, but they seemingly had plans that might have worked out - for F3 i'm still asking myself if the 'atomic mutations' would've be gone only for mutations arising because of a too limited DNA set, but well...

    Not to mention, i really despised their representation.
    I mean if i should be evil without any good reason, than at least give me black leather coats! ;)
     
  17. Sabirah

    Sabirah Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    930
    Jul 10, 2011

    I don't know about that, Ashoka the great destroyed a ton of stuff and spent most of his life taking over parts of asia. He pretty much is one of the sole reasons Mauryan India (and later Arabia/the rest of the middle east) was a major scientific power.

    Hell, after reading about Ashoka the great and his war with Kalinga I am starting to see that as what the NCR/legion war is more than the roman civil war
     
  18. Bad_Karma

    Bad_Karma Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    364
    Jun 17, 2007
    Don't know too much about him to be honest (so i had to read a bit in wiki now ;) ). But as i said you also need to improve the live of people at some point after such a thing. And that's what he did after the Kalinga Conquest. And if i read it correctly this war only lasted one year.
    Hmm you don't mean the medieval times with the scientific power do you?

    Which roman civil war exactly? As far as i know there where quite a few?
     
  19. Sabirah

    Sabirah Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    930
    Jul 10, 2011

    It did, but the Kalinga were the main power in India at the time so I thought it was most applicable.

    And the one were Caesar (the real, extremely awesome one) crossed the Rubicon and took on the more advanced and numerous Roman republic army
     
  20. White Knight

    White Knight Water Chip? Been There, Done That

    868
    Aug 28, 2010

    I wouldn't say the republican army was more advanced than Caesars, they had the same type of troops, and maybe some more siege weaponry. And the real Caesar himself wasn't 'extremely' awesome, as you say. He was arrogant, ambitious to the point he started acting like a king(kings were hated in the republic, due to the overthrowing of the tarquins), and had no problem with killing large number of gauls to gain him popularity in rome. Of course, he was a brilliant general.