Imagination - The cornerstone of Fallout's Universe.

Discussion in 'Fallout 3 Discussion' started by danielje, Nov 5, 2008.

  1. Ausdoerrt

    Ausdoerrt I should set a custom tit

    Oct 28, 2008
    Role-playing elements exist in many non-RPG games too. RPG elements in FOO aren't done as well as expected. They are also not taking up nearly as much game time as does combat. I spend 5 minutes talking to NPCs and exploring the main and the side-stories, and the hext hour-and-a-half grinding muties and raiders. Lots of role-playing there. For all purposes it's an FPS+ RPG elements, or "action RPG" at best. Kinda like Diablo.

    EDIT: If we're compating Deus Ex to FOO, Deus Ex had much more role-playing involved imo. I've only played the first one though.
     
  2. Ihniwid

    Ihniwid It Wandered In From the Wastes

    106
    Oct 30, 2008
    Yeah, I see it kind of the same way as Chaos.

    Fallout 3 is an RPG, I never said it was a great RPG or that it did anything extremely well. But it is an RPG.

    How is that proving me wrong? There are ways to play the game differently. Its broad in a sense of the different paths you can take. Just because you disagree with the stats system doesn't make it an strict FPS. It just means you're ornery.

    Halo is an FPS... Fear is an FPS. You go room to room and shoot things. You CAN do that is FO3 but you don't strictly HAVE to.

    Our views of an RPG are different. Deus Ex to me, is an RPG. For you it has some "aspects" of an RPG.
     
  3. Ausdoerrt

    Ausdoerrt I should set a custom tit

    Oct 28, 2008
    I guess I could agree if that's your view on RPGs. I prefer to call them "action RPGs" if I have to, but they don't really have the same RPG flavour. I'm a Diablo-hater too, so it's not a Fallot-exclusive rant.
     
  4. marko2te

    marko2te Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    369
    Sep 24, 2008
    Imagination is the cornerstone of Bethesdas games. RPG is a system that allows the player to create a role and that the world respond to it. In games made by Bethesda players role is imaginary, what ever role he chooses world respond to it in the same way. Old Fallouts allowed the player to make choices trough the game the reflected his role and cause consequences that player could not undo.
     
  5. Ihniwid

    Ihniwid It Wandered In From the Wastes

    106
    Oct 30, 2008
    Sure I'll go with action RPG too. As long as RPG is in the statement then yeah. But to call it a strict FPS is just silly.
     
  6. Public

    Public Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    May 18, 2006
    Yes, we have stats in FO3, and a character creation. But they don't do much, they're just there for franchise's sake.
     
  7. Ihniwid

    Ihniwid It Wandered In From the Wastes

    106
    Oct 30, 2008
    The stats, regardless of what you think, do effect your gameplay to some degree, they aren't just sprinkles on the cake. I don't understand how character creation doesn't "do much" but whatever...

    You create a character, you name him/her. You build him the way you like it. You choose specific decisions. How are you not playing a role? How is that not an RPG?
     
  8. Public

    Public Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    May 18, 2006
    In previous Fallouts everything was based on your stats. In FO3 even your dialogue is dump when you're intelligence is high.

    If you don't see it, then you should read people's comments and explenations on this forum how RPG side of FO3 was dumped down, to a very low level of existance.
     
  9. Ihniwid

    Ihniwid It Wandered In From the Wastes

    106
    Oct 30, 2008
    I have read them...

    Regardless, even if you see it as "dumbed down" it is still an RPG. In your view it'd be a "dumbed down" RPG. But still an RPG. To call it a strict FPS is simply ignorant. Thats what I'm arguing.
     
  10. Public

    Public Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    May 18, 2006
    No, then it's an FPS game with RPG elements.

    Bioshock has RPG elements, but it doesn't make it an RPG game, only FPS with RPG elements.
     
  11. Ihniwid

    Ihniwid It Wandered In From the Wastes

    106
    Oct 30, 2008
    Nah. Bioshock was a very well done FPS that had a decent system of weapon and power management. There were no interactions with NPCs (only the basic two way radio transmissions and etc) or world to explore or ways to choose different routes, aside from the good or bad ending...

    Fallout 3 goes way beyond that.
     
  12. DOF_power

    DOF_power First time out of the vault

    91
    Oct 29, 2008
    Apparently for the new comers/buyers/fans Fallout 3 is
    GTA meets WOW: Post-Apocalyptic America .
     
  13. Ihniwid

    Ihniwid It Wandered In From the Wastes

    106
    Oct 30, 2008
    What?! I dont even understand...
     
  14. cratchety ol joe

    cratchety ol joe Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    480
    Sep 2, 2008
    to attempt to add depth to the wealth of "yes it is" / "no it isn't arguments"

    I don't believe F3 is ANY kind of RPG, stats that 'slightly' alter how well the controls work?
    This was available in a game called 'conflict: desert storm' which was most certainly NOT an RPG game.

    Intractable NPC's?
    has been done in soo many FPS games I can't be bothered to list, but to pull one out Doom 3 had 'intractable' NPC's and I'm sure the Doom Franchise, I could probably have chosen a better example, but this came to mind first.

    Quite frankly if the game does not suitably allow differences relating to the characters statistics (capabilities) or allows the character to alter just about anything that he so chooses / is able to (un-killable characters?) quite frankly, F3 has all the hallmarks of being an FPS game that got confused at some stage, RPG elements? unless I suddenly have an epiphany I see nothing to suggest there is any RPG in there.

    I have a feeling I may be about to get slammed down and or quoted.
     
  15. Ihniwid

    Ihniwid It Wandered In From the Wastes

    106
    Oct 30, 2008
    Nah I'm not going to "slam" you or anything. I just feel as if a lot of this non-RPG stuff is comparing the game closely to the previous Fallouts. Which is certainly warranted. However this is a different developer and they have proven in the past to create a well rounded RPG. Its not on the same gradation as other RPGs but it is there still. In its own way.
     
  16. Mapex

    Mapex It Wandered In From the Wastes

    107
    Oct 31, 2008
    I don't understand why people have to believe that a game having a FPS view and combat in such a view that requires you to manually aim and fire can never be called an RPG no matter what else is going for it.

    An RPG I believe is nothing but a game in which the player "plays the role" of a character who lives his or her own individual life with a unique story that may or may not affect the fictional world. Anything the player wants to do can only be done to the extent to which the character is able.

    All adding an FPS component to an RPG game does is make it so the player can literally see things the way the character would. Sure, the player's skill in using cover tactically and aiming a weapon is taken into account, but because of skill checks the weapon, although it may look like it's right on target, will be missing like crazy if the character doesn't have a sufficient amount of skill to use it.

    Mass Effect is by far the best example of this RPG-FPS hybrid, and it does not appeal to the stereotypically impatient, action-seeking FPS gamer. It is strictly an RPG with a real time combat system, which is almost entirely limited by your character's gear and skills. Only the use of cover, squad leadership, and grenades/throwables are player skill based.

    Now, there's two things Mass Effect does better than Fallout 3, that make ME a better RPG overall than FO3 and FO3 a better "FPS", if you can even call it that, than ME. Combat, of course, and story.

    There's are limitless threads about how the FO3 story suffers due to poor dialogue and player/character choices in conversations, lack of open endedness with many invisible walls, etc, so I won't dwell on it here.

    The problem with Fallout 3's combat not being RPG-enough is not because of the FPS/TPS combat at all. Nor is there a problem with VATS. The fact that you can use BOTH normal FPS/TPS and VATS at the same time is the issue; in essence, it's like having both active abilities that consume stamina/mana/a round/a turn on top of an "auto attack", and can use them together in the same round of combat.

    Imagine blasting a Fireball at an enemy and then slashing them with a greatsword in the same round in DnD. From a player's perspective, all you did was click a few things, but in the character's perspective, he had to conjure this great ball of flame and launch it with enough force at the enemy, and then he runs after his fireball and throws around a huge sword in his chainmail without breaking a sweat. That's like the Matrix on crack.

    There's less RPG-style combat (character's skill emphasized over player's skill) when you have more breathing room for character failure due to player-enhanced combat. In DnD if your Lightning Bolt is Evaded or Resisted, that is a major set back because your character's skill/stat checks failed, giving your enemy the upper hand in combat for that round. Your combat abilities are limited by your character's ability, your enemy's ability, and random chance, and every round has the ability to make or break your character.

    Instead of being screwed by missing shots in VATS, you can just go into FP view and shoot the person up. Unlike VATS which is limited by AP, FPS mode let's you keep firing without worry (other than easy to reload magazines), allowing you to make up for any shots that miss. In Mass Effect, for comparison's sake, combat is limited by weapon overheating and biotic/engineering cooldowns.

    Really, if combat were to be more character based than player based, every shot should require AP and enemies should be rebalanced accordingly. Right now, they seem super easy just because, with VATS + FPS mode, your character has Godly, Neo-on-speed reflexes in the eyes of your enemy or a bystander.

    If normal shooting in FPS/TPS mode also required AP, then players that are more comfortable with TB RPG combat can use VATS to simulate the same punch-for-punch idea, and players that are more familiar with FPSs can gun enemies like normal.

    Your character's abilities would make a larger difference since you can't really spray and pray due to the AP limitation. In Mass Effect, a soldier type who relies on weaponry won't see overheating weapons too easily due to his/her skill with the weapons, which allows enemies to be dispatched quicker, and can switch to a weapon he is less proficient but still skilled with if his primary weapon is unusable for a little while. An Adept/biotic heavy user on the other hand has to use the crap out of biotics to fight because his pistol, the only weapon he can really use, is going to be very limited in power and overheat quickly due to weaker pistol skills.

    Unlike Fallout 3, Mass Effect achieves a nice balance that allows for the character's gear and abilities to outweigh the addition of the player's input in a round of combat, keeping true to RPG combat in an FPS perspective. Were Fallout 3 to have limitations that prevented you from seamlessly switching between VATS and TPS/FPS at will within the same "round of combat", both FPS-style and TB-style combat could exist in a balanced, character-centric fashion.
     
  17. rcorporon

    rcorporon So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
    Orderite

    Jan 31, 2008
    For me, the main sticking point in FO3 not really being an RPG is that stats have so little to do with what role your character is.

    If I'm going to play the "role" of a terrified Vault Dweller in FO3, but in real life I kick ass in using a keyboard and mouse and therefore am able to shoot the nuts off a raider at 500m in real time, how is that playing a role?

    Even if my characters stats accurately reflect the role I'm trying to play, the game mechanics (that of a FPS) ensure that because I'm a good twitch gamer, my "role" is that of a good twitch gamer, and not a horrified Vault Dweller.
     
  18. Ausdoerrt

    Ausdoerrt I should set a custom tit

    Oct 28, 2008
    This made me laugh hard. Nice one! :mrgreen:

    As for arguing about FOO game style, well... I wouldn't call it an FPS. It is obvious that the game devs tried to make it and RPG with FPS perspective, but failed in the process... It doesn't matter THAT much in the end anyways. Even if you call your horse Boeing 747, it still won't be able to fly at 967km/h.
     
  19. the lone deathclaw

    the lone deathclaw First time out of the vault

    54
    Nov 2, 2008
    Every game allows you to play a role but in an RPG as in life you are limited to your characters abilities. You can take multiple paths but no one can be a jack of all trades no one and in this game, everybody can do everything! wow that's an FPS or other genre's a wizard is not a fighter just as a 3 int vault dweller is not the same as a high Cha and high Int good natured trait taking diplomat but guess what, it is in this game. When i heard of the replayability i laughed, this has the replayability of GTA except i can be good or evil but only in very rare occassions is there any impact for my actions. I could careless if the game was from the first person perspective but let me feel like I am the character and have clear choices and things i can actually care about. What this game does is gives me what you called the personal perspective and makes me feel like Duke Nukem all style no substance. I enjoyed Oblivion some but i never felt attached to my character that is an ultimate problem in their games, there is no player character, no substance there is just you playing in a sandbox.

    Fallout 3 cheapens this when your skillpoints do not affect your ability to hit something with a skill you do not use.

    One more thing for everyone who does not have anything to add and just want to say what's wrong with all of you haters, leave us be. You won the war, games have been dumbed down and graphics are all that matters, you are happy with the world and live in it, you don't get it. We waited 11 years and so many false starts to get a sequel and we were pessmistic yes but god dammit we have a right to be upset so go.... go play your games, i mean i get it consoles sell so they have the primary controls but can any developer spend i don't know 3 hours to make a logical keysystem for the game, i'm sure gametesters would have options. I mean this was all dependant on what the xbox or ps3 had in buttons, we spend money on our computers maybe don't have everything done by tab and wasd.
     
  20. Mapex

    Mapex It Wandered In From the Wastes

    107
    Oct 31, 2008
    No, Fallout 3 does not capture the "RPG" as well as it really should have been able to. It's, like you said, a game where your character can be the master of everything. You can easily max 8 skills no problem. EIGHT OUT OF THIRTEEN. What the hell is the point of tagging? Oh wait, they diluted that, too.

    The thing is, Fallout 3 does indeed rely on your skills, but the scaling doesn't work as drastically as it should. Limiting the amount of combat you can do by swapping between VATS and FPS/TPS shooting seamlessly will make your missed shots a lot more apparent as in any other RPG, especially early on. Playing FO2 from the start again, wow I've died so many times because the two to three melee attacks I can do a round mean life or death for me.

    There's no problem with the FPS combat in FO3, it's just that you can shoot at rapid speed with VATS + FPS so any misses can be mitigated by shooting more and more ammunition to increase the number of hits you make in a given period of time, which also diminishes the effect of your combat skill levels.

    Yes, maybe skills need to vary in effectiveness on a lot steeper curve, but it seems to me that just the rapid amount of shooting that you can do, even early on, is the culprit. Missing with your gun due to low skills is very apparent with a slower firing weapon such as the hunting rifle, but by the time you run into one you'll probably have high small gun skill anyway. The 10MM pistol you can shoot at the speed of an uzi respective to how quickly your enemies shoot their guns.