Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Fallout 3 Discussion' started by danielje, Nov 5, 2008.
I'd throw COD4 in there just to be fair, but yeah, that's what it is.
Sounds like someone is scared to debate Fallout 3's awesomeness! I see a mind changing in process. When you're ready to accept F03's excellence, just let us know. We'll help you deal with it.
As someone who both enjoys this game and believes it to be a worthy successor to the Fallout series, Fallout 3's excellence is still up for debate. And from what I've seen so far playing the game, some of the points people make here on gameplay are valid.
Having to rely on manual aiming and shooting at enemies makes this game an FPS. You can't do that in RPGs. It just doesn't happen. And yes, you have to rely on manual shooting unless you play the game on very easy and kill behemoths with one shot in vats.
to tell someone "to go away" because he thinks differently, is weak. only through different opinions is discussion and thought fuelled.
i've ordered the game and expect very little RPG.
alone the thought of having to start as a 18 year or so brat is making me shudder (40 years of age in rl). to be honest, i was an absolute immature idiot with 18, driven only by the need to plug some hole. the last thing i would have wanted to do, was find my father or save some bunker. the one-line options offered in dialogue (which i have seen so far) are pathetically simple and represent everything gone wrong with the gaming industry the last 10 years.
i'm expecting a post-apoc exploring game with some fps elements.
roleplaying, is something i can relate and identify with.
being 18 years of age, saving the world in fps mode by killing left right and centre and communicating my way through with unintelligent one-liners, is NOT something i can relate to.
Mapex layed it out well
your char skill doesnt even affect the accuaracy of weapons in realtime, only the damage (and even that by not much!)
I just killed 10 mutants/brutes simply spraying them with ranger`s minigun in real time. Guess what? My BigGuns skill is 19... Not FPS?
Iv read guys trying to play FO3 as a ninja charachter sneak/unarmed/melee. So far so-bad: sneak isnt effective and most of the time they have to circle-strafe enemies in realtime slashing them in the back. RPG?
Now Im really interested if this game can be played UNLIKE action/FPS: build up a sneaky charachter and avoid combat as much as you can. I suppose you cant have a 0 in the 'killed creatures' stat, but still interesting to try such approach
Well, the skills do affect your accuracy. What I said, however, is that your character skill deficiencies aren't very apparent because of the crazy rate of fire you can achieve by FPSing targets down. You can VATS for "safe" shots due to taking less damage from enemy fire, and then you can fire in FPS mode 10 shots from a pistol during the time it takes an enemy to shoot 10 shots from a MINIGUN. With a higher ROF, you can make up for your many, many misses.
Like in the GOAT exam, your grandmother gives you a pistol to kill someone. You have the choice to "ask for a minigun because you don't want to miss". The same idea holds true in actual FO3 combat, so skill is of less importance than it should be.
Your character skill most certainly affects your accuracy in real time. A lot.
It's this kind of talk that makes it hard to take things seriously because it sounds very much like people are speaking with no experience.
There is a huge difference in 40 and 80 small guns skill with even the most basic hunting rifle.
And that bit about sneak is completely wrong as well. Maybe try not to take everything you 'read' at face value.
Oh, except Fallout 3 reviews.
I didnt conduct any tests of REALTIME accuracy, need to create a new char and see for myself. All I experienced is that realtime aiming gives far better accuracy than VATS at long/mid distance
Iv been doing distant headshots in realtime no problem with smallguns skill ~70 (where vats gave me 20-25% chance)
And that I can efficently use big guns with crappy bg skill.
Sneak 100, +silent runner perk: closing on a mutant from the back to deal a melee sneak crit is very hard and pretty miuch depends on a chance. even sneaking by is hard
(partly due to the fact that they always look/wander around)
only stealth boy makes you pretty much invisible
That's because sneak isn't nearly as cheesy as it was in FO 1/2. It's more like a Thief game. Lighting, positioning, cover, your armor, etc. They all matter. And some enemies are more impervious to it than others. It's hard to sneak up on something like an ant because they naturally hunt via smell and vibratory sensation.
And you used a minigun.. of course if you unload a lot of bullets some will hit. I'd say that's slightly more tolerable than the opposite and shooting 50 bullets and none hitting.
But that's a debate for realism vs. gameplay and will never reach an agreement.
Lighting? There are no shadows, how am I supposed to use them to sneak by an enemy?
Seriously. Have you played this game at all? Quick run down. Inside most buildings there are lights on the wall. Stand under the light and you are there for all to see. Stand away from the light where it is darker and you may have a chance to be undetected. Sneaking by enemies at night is naturally easier. Oh and dont forget to turn your pip boy light off. Honestly Buxbaum I get the impression you are being awkward for the sake of it. Maybe the game is not dumbed down enough for some people..........
And the radio, right?
Yeah, I guess. But are you sure that lighting has an impact on sneaking other than that? I kinda doubt it.
Well, doubt all you wish.. but it's true. Sneaking depends heavily on environmental factors. You won't just "sneak run" up behind someone in broad daylight while wearing power armor.
And yes, your pip-boy radio can give you away as well. Sound is just as important. Kick over a bottle while sneaking and you might alert someone.
While you're 'correct' that environmental factors do affect sneaking, I think it's a pretty easy factor to overlook because of how poorly 'balanced' it is. That is, it does seem to work perfectly in some cases, but in other cases it's so flawed that one might not realize it exists at all, assuming the other case was just an aggressive enemy.
For example, when I attacked the area around the Bethesda buildings, I attempted two different assaults.
1) I tried sneaking with a silenced pistol. I 'only' had sneak around 50, and found this absolutely futile. Someone always discovered me. Fair enough.
2. BUT... when I used a sniper rifle (with a very, very loud report), I could pick off raiders one by one and nobody was ever alerted, even though their friends were exploding right next to them.
I've also been able to fire off shotguns in medium sized buildings without alerting anyone... but then knock a bottle off the table and all hell breaks loose.
returning to the RPG debate. every game 'puts you in a role'. Want to be a plumber in a fantasy setting? Play Mario. However, one of the defining features of Western RPGs is that you can play very different roles, and those roles are enforced by the game itself. In the simplest terms, a fighter can't cast spells well, and a mage can't wear the best armor or use the best weapons.
This is one of the most basic examples of choice and consequence - you chose to focus on agility and pickpocket, and you wield a nasty dagger... but you're strength lies in the shadows.
The problem in Fallout 3 is that no character feels different. I've been slaughtering Super Mutants since level 3 (when I first discovered them). And I do mean slaughtering them. I'm now level 12 and it's a joke. All of the fear I used to have about Super Mutants in the previous FOs as well as when I first booted up FO3 is gone. Most get nailboards and hunting rifles, and even the occassional minigun or rocket launcher is easy to deal with.
Likewise, stats no longer have a major impact on the game. Sure, they have a superficial impact, but since you can raise your stats so high in the game, no character feels truly different. I have 100% lockpick at level 12, which means one might think I have a thief character - though really, I've been playing a gunslinger. And the only reason I have 100% lockpick is so i can open the occasional door that has that as a requirement, even though in almost all cases someone near the door has a key anyway. Not to mention, most locks are rated easy/very easy so even someone w/o lockpick will be able to experience 95% of the 'secrets'.
And the reason 'FPS' detracts from the RPG is because it emphasizes YOUR skill, not your characters skill. A example of this in a different area would be dialog - why does an Intelligence 1 character speak exactly like an Intelligence 10 character, barring the occassional 'Intelligence' check. The dialog should be completely different - an imbecile vs. a genius. But the game does not account for this.
In the same way, if you've got a shotgun, it doesn't matter all that much if your small guns is 10 or 100. Sure, it helps... but you can take out a super mutant pretty easily either way. Try that in a previous fallout.
The problem here is that, with the exception of VATs, YOU, the player, are doing a lot of the aiming. Your skill at FPS affects how well your character survives in many ways.
Sniping is a great example, since even kneeling you'll have the 'sway' of the gun, making a headshot on a distant enemy a 'timing' game. This is FPS. In a traditional RPG, this would be based on: quality of gun, type of gun, small gun skill, perception. Period.
I realize you want to call many games 'RPG' that some here don't consider as RPG. That's fine. But understand you have an extremely loose definition of the term, and you're talking to hardcore RPGers - many of whom grew up on Fallout, Wasteland, Bard's Tale, etc. That people currently call games like Fallout 3 'RPGs' isn't so much of an evolution as a gutting-out, dumbing down, abomination -- a complete and total abstraction of a genre on the level of what might happen if in 10 years all FPS games were turn based ("but you see first person and you can shoot so it's OBVIOUSLY a FPS, duh").
its not just 'some will hit' - I decimated a group of mutants with no problem, despite my char having a low skill
Id say if you had a lousy big guns skill you wouldnt be able to use a minigun at all. either in reality or in a real RPG (try it in FO2)
And like it was noted many times, in RPG you chose your 'role' which makes your game experience very different from another 'role', both in combat and npc interaction. This is not quite true for FO3 - you can do pretty much everything with any charachter and level to the max in all the usefull skills easily.
This game needs rebalancing mods badly. Then it needs mods for quests and dialogues...
in the previous titles this difference was known as 'death' take on a super mutant with 40% in your chosen skill in FO 1 2 or tactics and the character is as good as mush...
tell me this is the same in FO3? or like most state from experience, that even with minimal skill points a whole hoard can be gunned down?