Is NV too much NCR-Sided?

Discussion in 'Fallout: New Vegas Discussion' started by gongos, Nov 25, 2010.

  1. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    It can just as easily be swept aside by arguing that none of those are Caesar's doing, but rather the more subversive elements within the Legion, like Vulpes. Ulysses himself explained that Vulpes was the singular architect of many of the Legion's campaigns which involved manipulation, not Caesar. Saying that Caesar lies because his subordinate, Vulpes lies is like saying Caesar lost the first Battle of Hoover Dam. He didn't, Graham did. But we choose to carry the burden upward the chain of command, so we still pin the blame on Caesar, when he had no part in the direct strategizing of the battle whatsoever.
     
  2. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    Vulpes, Graham, Lenius, all exist to carry out Caesar's will. Caesar is the top commander and ultimately, he bears the responsibility for his orders.
     
  3. Landonio

    Landonio First time out of the vault

    15
    Aug 6, 2012
    I agree. Although he was not there personally, he needs to take responsibility for what his inferiors did under his name.
     
  4. Ilosar

    Ilosar Vault Fossil

    Apr 20, 2010

    Big C put these people in charge. He knows how they are. He knew Graham for decades, how utterly ruthless and unsubtle he is, it's really not hard to figure out what happens when you put a guy like him in charge of an army. He knows Vulpes will go to great lenghts to send a message. He knows Lanius doesn't care one bit about weakness, it's the reason he's Legate in the first place. As the absolute dictator of the Legion, he really is responsible for everything that happens in it, including the behavior of all his men. If he can successfully erase a life of tribal identity and institute such an effective discipline in his army, he can very well tell the soldiers to stop abusing women and slaves. He just doesn't give a flying fuck.

    Also, your precious dictator is a sad, terrible joke. His whole society is based on 1) a flawed grasp of a concept that was already an unrealistic clusterfuck at the time of its inception (Hegelian dialectics, synthesis ect.) 2) a flawed grasp of what Rome was (hint, a Roman Legion is not Roman society as a whole) 3) violence. Simply speaking to the Legionaries very quickly reveals that it's not any sort of moral mission that drives them, beyond pleasing Ceasar, but the ability to exert power over others and kill people. Ceasar is the only one that ever talks of any sort of higher motive beyond more conquest, Lanius doesn't care, Vulpes obviously doesn't care either, and any other centurion in the line of succession probably doesn't care because he got his job by killing as many people as possible, not reading dubious philosophical treatises. Once Ceasar bites the bullet, the Legion is just another slaver army, albeit a more organized one than usual.

    Any credibility big C's ''synthesis'' and''new world'' ideas could have died when he ordered New Canaan razed out of pure spite. Most shining city of the region besides New Vegas, razed because Graham comes from there. Ceasar attempts to bury it under pseudo-philosophy and semi-affable statements, yet he's a little but a psycopathic manchild who wants to conquer everything in sight because he can and crush whomever opposes him. I have at least some amount of respect for most of the game's NPCs, but Ceasar can go die in a fire, I'll kindle it gladly. At least Lanius is honest about wanting to conquer for conquest's sake, hell he even sees the flaws in the Legion deep down. He's ten times smarter than his boss.

    Also, I'll always find it darkly funny that NCR wanting to tax people and take the Mojave's ressources is badbadbad, but slavery? Mass murder? Rape? T'is nothing to worry about. Let's just gloss over it.
     
  5. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    Spoken like a true drone of "NCR for life!" brainwashing. God, that post was rife with illogical jargon, and blind ignorance.

    For staters, you're labeling my stance towards Caesar as supportive. I've said SEVERAL times that I consider Caesar's ending better than NCR (which isn't a complement), but that I still opt for House/Indepedent ALL TIME TIME. I never said I like the Legion, or that I side with them. I only did so once for the Achievements and for the perspective. It was very informative, and anyone who WASN'T walking through life with blinders on would have learned a lot about them from that, and seen a lot of good along with the bad. I was being OBJECTIVE about the Legion, which you were anything but.

    Caesar didn't create the Legion off of a "flawed grasp" of an ancient civilization, he KNOWINGLY created something very different, modeled only on certain specific themes from a historical force, for practical reasons. Dislike his reasons and his philosophies, but calling his actions those of ignorance is a pot calling the kettle black ('cept the kettle, in this case, is a glass jar). His stances on slavery and women are equally practical, not ignorant. He has thoughtful considerations about every decision he makes; another user quoted his analysis of the Brotherhood and why they needed to go. His reasoning was accurate and he had a good point, but that didn't make him right.

    That's what objectivity is. You can say that Caesar is the wrong choice for the Mojave, and a ruthless dictator, and many other horrible things, and that would be a pretty agreeable statement. Having good points to back up such a statement would be objective; but if you ignore the GOOD, you're being close-minded, haughty, and self-centered. If all you see is wrong, and you're insulted when someone brings up good points that would lead you to reassess your perspective, you need to take stock of yourself immediately. Get your facts, and don't overlook the more obvious ones, before you come charging into a conversation with the most glaringly one-sided ignorance possible, like this:
    Everyone who keeps insisting that the actions of Caesar's underlings equate to his actions have some major responsibility issues. YOU, the player, controlling the courier, are Caesar's agent, if you choose to be. The actions you make, if you choose to heed him, are no different than the actions of Vulpes, Malpais, or Lanius. They are at best encouraged by Caesar, but everything you do is by your own choice. You are ENTIRELY responsible for your own actions, if you choose to murder, and gleefully torture and enslave others to please Caesar. I wasn't illustrating that on a societal level we burden commanders with their underling's actions as if that was a GOOD thing; that was a criticism. Doing that undermines free will as if those who took any action DIDN'T choose to. Caesar didn't make you do bad things; he's not a God. You did it yourself.
     
  6. Mameluk

    Mameluk It Wandered In From the Wastes

    126
    Aug 13, 2012
    Despite the background ideas, Caesar created his Legion mostly because of his own ego and of despise towards tribals and NCR. And he makes a mistake of thinking he'll elevate it on a higher level by claiming one more city to his empire.
    There is a reason slavery was eventually abolished and women equalized in rights with men - free people are always a boost to state's income and productivity unlike enslaved drones motivated by fear. So in this case his instance on keeping those aspects of the Legion is pretty illogical.
    But the thing is there's barely anything good in the Legion. Obsidian accidently made the same mistake Bethesda did on purpose in FO3; while DC BOS is intentionally portrayed as knights in shining armors and the Enclave as evil warlocks, while Legion's barbarity make NCR, even with their flaws, look like saviours of the Mojave. The only "good" thing confirmed about the Legion is keeping their territories safe from raiders and monsters. If more aspects of the Legion were developed, they'd be more veritable, but for now they turned out cartoonishly evil to a point they immediately make you turn to NCR.
    You're missing one important point here: player can choose whether or not side with the Legion, yes, so did Graham, but Vulpes, Lanius, Lucius and many others come from tribes pacified and absorbed by Caesar. You're an addition to the Legion, while they are Legion. In other words, you have a choice whether to do as Caesar asks, but they must do so and even want to do so as they were indoctrinated and brainwashed. That makes Caesar responsible for his minions' actions, with the only exceptions being Graham and Lanius, as he clearly declares his doubts about Caesar's aims and breaks the taboo of speaking the Burned Man's true name, which shows him more as a loyal (to a point) general and not a puppet like Vulpes is.
     
  7. Languorous_Maiar

    Languorous_Maiar A Smooth-Skin

    688
    Oct 25, 2011
  8. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    No, it's perfectly logical. The Legion isn't a nation state, in its current form. It has massive territory that it covers, which would RIVAL other states (even modern-day non-fictional ones), but it's a nomadic army. For an army, the slavery and "women are only good for making more soldier" stance are practical for their purposes.

    I.... didn't, really. In fact, I specified that very point, when I said "if you choose to be [Caesar's agent]" and "if you choose to heed [Caesar]".

    The problem with what you were suggesting is the same issue I already addressed: total disregard for free will. Yes, the very PURPOSE of military indoctrination is to stamp out any semblances of free-thinking and homogenize the troops into a hive mind, but it's far from perfect. Even the Enclave had deserters who recognized that no matter how much glory it was painted with, what they were doing was abominable.
     
  9. Ilosar

    Ilosar Vault Fossil

    Apr 20, 2010
    Wow, you're way easier to argue with than Tagaziel.

    I call it in-game info. For starters, Independant with a good/intelligent Courier is my favourite ending, followed by NCR, and then House further down the line.

    You were supportive in your posts. You called him intelligent and such. I argue he's a psychopathic dunce based on how I see him in-game.


    I was speaking of Hegelian dialectics. The whole gist of the Legion is that it absorbs those it vainquishes. Synthesis.

    Except that the Legion relies on total war. What they oppose, they oppose fully. They don't just beat the army and occupy. They enslave the population, kill most of the men, and erase cultural and individual indentity. Hegels never anticipated this kind of warfare Synthesis simply cannot happen with this model. I'v pointed out in this very same thread that the only things the Legion could ever absor from NCR are shallow things, such as technology or whatnot. The base concepts of the Republic? Rule of law, democracy, capitalism? Forget it. The Legion would never survive integrating this. Conquering New Vegas means just that, another notch on big C's machete. it won,t magically change the Legion, nor will crushing NCR.

    You say the Legion is a different model? That's bollocks. They are flatly based on the model of the Roman Legion (not Roman society, mind you) with some Mongolian thrown in for good measure. They are alien to the people of the Mojave and NCR, but nothing new at all.


    Funny you mention that, because I see little to no good in the Legion. Mass murder. A ruthless dictator. Slavery. Institutionalized sexism. Rape being tolerated across the board. They keep peace in their borders, that's great, but when most of the population is enslaved that's kind of a moot point. Maybe, as Sawyer says, there are good things, but the bad so severely outweight the good they become irrlevant.


    ...What? You are completely skirting the issue. The player can do as he pleases, I care not.

    I'm speaking of the NPCs in the game. Not a single one is sympathetic or has anything in his mind but bloody murder. Lanius is the very only one that shows any amount of depth.

    Also, you,re saying Ceasar can't change his underling's behavior? What a joke. He's a supreme dictator. What he will, happens, those who disagree get killed, those who fail get covered in flames and thrown into the Grand Canyon. He can utterly erase tribal and individual identities, instill a discipline and faith important enough that men charge and die under his command, and can successully strictly forbid advanced medicine or technology, but telling his soldiers to lay off on the atrocities and rape is beyond him? He ''didn't make you do bad things'' like how his commanders have full support for practices such as Decimatio?

    Surely you jest.

    Err, woman could become more soldiers which could police said territory? Also, not your fault, but I find it utterly illogical that a roving army can very effectively police 4 whole states, and not small ones at that. It would take several thousand men per state, considering how ridiculously dangerous the world of Fallout is. Yet they apparently can do, just because. You know what it is to me? No Delays for the Wicked http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoDelaysForTheWicked In short, villains never have to worry about logistical problems, while ''good guys'' (I use the term loosely in NCR's case) do.

    Also, big +1 to Mameluk's post.
     
  10. Languorous_Maiar

    Languorous_Maiar A Smooth-Skin

    688
    Oct 25, 2011
    You wrote some false informations. Most of population isn't enslaved, yeah, they have zero right, but that isn't the same.

    You said about raping, killing and a lot of bad stuff, but live of people under Caesar's Legion became better after they were conquered.

    And in my opinion we shouldn't complain about:

    "Mass murder. A ruthless dictator. Slavery. Institutionalized sexism. Rape being tolerated across the board."

    because it's post-War world? It's like complaining for slavery in ancient era. Master, Caesar and even Enclave to save "society" must have to take the most difficult and immoral option because only that can lead to sucess. Look at NCR, there were sucessfull only when Vault Dweller, then BoS, then Chosen One helped them. After that? Huge corruption, internal struggle (beetwen towns, factions, and even beetwen some people in NCR Army), lack of any organization, and a lot of more. Only problems for Caeser came from outside (because people otuside Legion didn't tolerate their policy and ways for bringing civilization.)

    But ofc. like in every great cRPG everyone can choose their side, and it's all the fun. :)
     
  11. ramessesjones

    ramessesjones It Wandered In From the Wastes

    194
    Oct 27, 2010

    This may will be true, but Caesar in the game, misguided or not, seems to think it will work (although obviously he's not going bother trying to integrate democracy). Generally, I think the best character type to role play on the Legion storyline, is misguided pseudo-academic, who is willing to make the wild leap of faith that his dubious theory will work out, as the only other choice is a complete sociopath murder, which tends to be boring character type. I think Caesar himself thinks the Legion in current form is basically terrible, so I don't think the player should be expected to feel otherwise.

    I think main thing he wants to integrate from NCR are the people themselves, people that are already fairly civilized unlike the tribes that make up most the current Legion, in hopes it balances things out some. If you look at the ending for Goodsprings or few the Primm endings, he mostly leaves the people there alone, I think these types of people, that are peaceful and productive when mostly left to themselves are what he feels will make the Legion stronger and NCR has a lot of people like this.


    How do we know they don't have that many people? NCR has hundreds of thousands of people and the Legion is able to be threat to NCR despite their poor equipment because of their ability attack with numbers. The Legion seem like it could be very large.
     
  12. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    I'll try to touch on your (Ilosar's) points without using quotes, because that would make this too big...

    To begin with, lay off the sarcasm. Sarcasm has no place in civil discussion, and even for normal people it's incredibly difficult to detect in textual form, so it merely confuses issues. Meanwhile, even when spoken, I'm a person who has great difficulty detecting sarcasm, but because of many a snarky remark, I highly suspect you've been using it in several of your points. Cut that out, it's unwarranted. If I completely misread you, and you GENUINELY said things like "I'm easier to argue with" and such, then I apologize (but I doubt it).

    In-game info was, just as this TOPIC TITLE pointed out, way too one-sided in favor of the NCR. You can see when all you hear about Lanius is horrific things, and that he joined the Legion without even caring about the Legion, because he slaughtered his own entire tribe for giving in to Legion, and that he's blah blah blah. Yet then you meet the man, and he's NOTHING like the rumors, the stories, the lies. That's all they were, lies, misdirection, propaganda. He turns out to be a very honorable man (even you keep insisting he's a better Legionary that all the rest, including his leader), doesn't wish to waste the lives of his men under his command, and has a presence of mind that the Legion cannot (yet possibly will) turn on itself if it hopes to survive. None of the in-game "information" would lead you to suspect that this is the sort of person Lanius is, but he is. Much of what you hear about the factions is all slanted and skewed, and not entirely factual; they need to be taken with a grain of salt.

    If you thought my objective analysis of Caesar was support, then you just don't understand what objectivity is (but I already assessed as much). I admire many things about him- and anyone can -without SUPPORTING him; they're not mutually exclusive.
    He's an intellectual. Admirable.
    He's philosophized his past and future conquests. Admirable.
    He's spread education and raised the standard of living to those groups he's "touched". Admirable.
    He's a charismatic sonuvabitch. ADMIRABLE!!!
    That doesn't mean I'm supportive of him nor his cause.
    He condones (and institutes) an abandonment-of-free-will-military-lifestyle society. I do NOT support that.
    He (directly or indirectly) supports slavery and sexism. I do NOT support that.
    He uses intimidation to force conformity. I DO NOT support that!
    Meanwhile, your ignoring Caesar's intellect and choosing to only acknowledge that he's a "psychopathic dunce" is just that: ignorance. You're IGNORING that he really is smart. Apathetic, cruel, and (at best) misguided, absolutely. But smart.

    Hegelian Dialectics and Caesar's take on it, your criticisms of it, and the likelihood of their impracticality in execution, are all probably well and good criticisms. That doesn't mean you can't appreciate his philosophy about it (again, back to "You can like without condoning") in a general sense. It's a mind teaser that, with any slight amount of contemplation, really makes you think that it's a worthwhile "attempt". Again, it can be a great point, yet still not be right, which I stated before (and you quoted).

    I already touched on and explained the difference between "just another city" and "shifting from roving army to a situated society", so I'm not going to repeat myself. Just read the earlier posts. Once more, this is all IDEAS within Caesar's MIND (or, you could argue, his ego) so they might not necessarily happen, however that doesn't discount his intentions of them happening. He may very well want the best, just like he DOES genuinely want his campaign against the NCR to remove a corrupt and inefficient government (in his eyes) and replace it with a hardy society that he FEELS is "better", but that doesn't guarantee the best. Just like from a practical standpoint, any of the other 3 endings might seem like "better" options, but none of them are perfect.

    When you say that the "NPCs in the game" and their apathetic disregard for human life (or "[has only] bloody murder [in mind]" as you put it) that doesn't prove anything, other than that SOLDIERS are soldiers. Some men join the army, or the police, or whichever-government-sponsored-armed-force-you-want, because it let them LEGALLY kill people, and that's just the way they are. The difference between the real world and New Vegas is that the Legion encouraged this behavior. The more bloodthirsty, single-minded, simplistic and loyal, the better soldiers they would make. Incidentally, the NCR ran into the opposite problem of blanketing their territories with open enlistment and ending up with rampant desertion and unfit groups like the Misfits.

    However there ARE good Legionaries, and you meet one in Lonesome Road. No matter what your allegiance, Ulysses shows strong faith in the Legion, yet he makes it plain as day that he isn't tied to them any longer. He's not out for the blood of innocents, yet his grand plans involve the wholesale slaughter of thousands... just to prove a point. But this was not the Legion's doing, this was his personal conviction, and a result of his life-changing experiences he witnessed after crossing paths with the Courier. He can be talked down, and afterwards tries to make amends for his actions. That may never be enough (depending on how you "solve" the problem), but the good will and intention is there. Legionaries current and former like Ulysses are proof that Caesar CANNOT "change" his underlings. You cannot make a human being into something he's not. This is the core fault with ALL dictatorships and militaries; free will trumps all. No amount of killing to make examples, or torturing, or intimidating will truly CHANGE someone. The ones who will comply will comply, the one who won't never will.

    So no, no jests.

    Yes, women could become soldiers, that's not in dispute. Yet as pointed out by the developers, that would mean being on the front lines and potentially dying, whereas Caesar wanted them "protected" so they could keep "making new soldiers". Thus the practices of excluding women from many specific Legion "activities", and as a result the sexism that follows. Caesar grew up and was raised a Follower, and no matter how much he may denounce them, he's still a Follower at heart, and equality isn't something he just dropped from his core philosophies. But the practice dictates the perception. The same is true of ACTUAL slavery and modern-day racism: "Racism didn't create slavery, but slavery did create racism." Caesar isn't telling his troops to belittle women, but he is dictating a way of living that they interpret as women being inferior to men. It's an in-game representation of the philosophies of earlier era societies as a result of their policies. That's not to say he CAN'T tell them to "knock it off", but he certainly won't... that would contradict the practices that he openly supports, and as Graham pointed out, Caesar's image is everything to himself, and he cannot risk tarnishing it.

    Combine that with the thoughts from the other recent posts, and you can clearly see this isn't a black and white issue. There's plenty of white in the black making for lots of grey.
     
  13. Ilosar

    Ilosar Vault Fossil

    Apr 20, 2010
    No.

    The Master was utterly misguided. His mutants were not a viable solution at all, for reasons very clear.

    The Enclave were a bunch of genocide-mongering loonies. Nothing good ever came out of them save for sweet power armor.

    Ceasar is trying to ''save'' society from... what exactly? Violence? War? Because that,s exactly what he brings to the Mojave. Oh, after his conquests the place is a bit safer because Legionaries patrol the roads when they're not busy raping slavegirls (or each other, mayhaps), but it's a big, big stretch to think of a violent, slaving, totalitarian state as the wasteland's ''solution''.

    That's just flat-out false. the Vault Dweller saved Tandi, but after that NCR grew and faced its challenges by itself. The Chosen One only ensured she stayed in office by helping defuse the Vault 15 situation. Beating the Brotherhood, beating the Khans, beating the Legion the first time? They did that by themselves.

    Also, your claims about internal struggle comes from where? Nowhere does it says NCR has civil wars of any sort. NCR has survived and prospered for more than a century, that's a better record than... well any faction in the Fallout continuity, really. They're not perfect by any means, but they always find a way.

    Also, the fact that the Legion captures people for use as slaves, raids caravans, burns random towns to the ground, and generally act as monumental assholes is maybe a little more important than people ''not tolerating their policies''. Just saying.

    Possibly, but that just means his empire gets bigger. It doesn't really change anything. And after the Legion no longer has enemies to fight, then what? All those slave soldiers are gonna do what, exactly? Police the roads, what a glorious task. Even Lanius is at a complete loss of what the Legion would do if it ever managed to crush NCR.

    Yeah, but most of that population are civilians. I doubt the NCR army numbers in the hundreds of thousands. The Legion having access to a lot of manpower is a given, but that much seems a pretty big strech, especially because 1) they only have men taking up arms 2) said territories are hardly as civilized and secure as NCR's, given they were conquered but a decade before 3) loss rate in the Legion must be extreme, given the fondness for melee weapons in a gun-crazy setting and the lack of medical supplies beyond healing powder. Imagine trying to clear a Deathclaw nest with nothing but machetes. Good luck.

    @SnalSlav : Sarcasm is a natural part of my vocabulary. I can,t turn it off even if I wanted. Sorry :) .

    I agree that the Legion is not represented, but I think your example is not adequate. Ceasar himself depicts Lanius as some sort of beast, only wen you talk to him do you realize he is not so. It's less lies and more that his brutality is sort-of cultivated. The scary-ass armor does not help matters at all.

    As for the faction being slandered, well it's kinda hard to deny that they are murderous, sexist slavers, whatever their reasons.

    About Ceasar; I completely recognize he has ideas. Thing is, I don,t care and it doesn't matter. Look, I'll give you an historical example. Pol Pot really, genuinly believed that city life made people corrupt and evil. Thus, he enacted his ''solution'' and forced most of the country out of the cities. Of course, this proved incredibly disastrous, leading to famine, millions of dead, crippled economy, the works. All this time, he continued to believe he was doing good things, mind you. I could give you a few other examples, such as Mao Zedong, but you get the point. It doesn't matter. Because actions speak far louder than words. If Ceasar's ideas were just stuff thrown around a beer a friday night, I'd listen. Disagree, but listen. Here, they are used to justify slavery, mass murder, institutionalized sexism, all kind of horrible things I oppose completely. As such, no matter how interesting the points may be or how much he believes in it, I don't give a flying fuck, because the en result is a slave state used to fuel his need for conquest and ego. Hence the ''psycopathic dunce'' monicker.

    Also, being a soldier is NOT being a slaver who cares nothing about human life. Speak to an actual servicemen like talk and he'll boot your ass to kingdom come. And no, the psycopaths are NOT the best. The two best outfits of NCR? Rangers and First Recon, who are a match for anybody in the Legion stats and lore-wise save Lanius himself (who stats-wise gets beaten by 3 Veteran Rangers). Speak to them, and they are very far from being as psychotic as every Legion soldier. Hell, First Recon is entirely composed of sympathetic NPCs. The Misfits are one unit, and a bit of training makes them a force to be reckoned with. NCR has a bit of a training and discipline problem among the rank-and-file, but the answer is not to rurn your soldiers into bloodthirsty psychos.

    Furthermore, you are contradicting yourself about Ulysses. You say he's a ''good'' legionary... but that his evil act, launching the warhead at NCR, was not caused by his allegiance to the Legion? He's not really a Legionary anymore. You're also forgetting he gladly sent the White Legs to raze New Canaan to the ground on Ceasar's whim. Only something completely out of Ceasar's control (said Legs adopting Ulysses's braids) made him desert, and IIRC Frumentarii agents are then sent against him.

    About Ceasar and his soldiers, I'm not asking him to change their very natures (leave such musings to the Nameless One), just to forbid practices such as rape and excessive violence towards slaves. If the Legion can enforce bans towards high-tech toys and vital medicine, ass well as instill a discipline solid enough practices such as Decimatio are accepted, it can very well enforce bans towards such meaningless, base violence. But it won't, because Ceasar doesn't care one bit.

    Again, you're not seeing the issue. Ok, fine, women are better as baby factories following him. Thing is, your standing and importance in the Legion is strictly dictated by martial strenght. Save for Ceasar who gets a free pass, everybody in position of power got there because they can kick more asses than the guy below them, culminating in Graham and Lanius being Legates. If you are not allowed to fight, to display said martial strength, you have no power over Legion society. As such, women are explicitely forbidden from being as important socially and politically as men. This is far, far beyond gender separation (which is bad enough), it's just honest to goodness sexism. How is men ''interpret'' such commandes should matter little, since each Legionary is but a cog in the machine. Doesn't matter what they think, they're here to fight and die. If Big C says to jump, they jump, if he says to charge those guys wielding guns, they do, and if he said to treat women properly or else, they would treat women properly.

    Also, NCR has no such gender separation and still boasts a massive population. So again, it seems his ''solution'' is simply not necessary, and in fact creates additionnal problems. Historically, nations never needed such policies to enjoy a numerous population. In fact, the Legion's model is very much based on the elite of the Spartan society, and they weren,t exactly continent-covering numerous. It just seems like an utter waste of potential for little real gains, and adds to the Legion's stupid evil credentials.

    I very much realize this is not a black and white issue. But as I see it, NCR is a relatively light grey, while the Legion is full-on black with supplementary information showing us a small hint of grey
     
  14. Oppen

    Oppen FIXT n°1 fan

    Dec 26, 2011
    I just wanted to add that it isn't only everything to himself, but to the Legion itself. There's no way a civilization depending on a charismatic leader could survive the lose of the idea of who the leader is.
     
  15. Languorous_Maiar

    Languorous_Maiar A Smooth-Skin

    688
    Oct 25, 2011
    Vault Dweller destroyed Khans and rescue Tandi. If not him, Shady Sands will be razed to the ground / without Tandi there wouldn't be NCR.

    Next, "NCR grew and faced its challenges by itself."

    Nor true. They grew only thanks to BoS technology, and it's obvious that at some point, they no longer needed BoS help.

    Chosen then also helped them, by killing New Khans and as you said by him Tandi continued her office. But without her, expansion will be slowed, therefore, F:NV can't happen at this timeline. (Propably Caesar would conquer New Vegas)

    It is said in the game, that cities compete with each other. There is no money for war, because everything has gone for election in Los Angeles? What? Crimson caravan competes with Gun Runners, Far Go Traders, and with independent caravans. They act like Legion, you know, raids caravans, steal plans etc.

    They act like that, because Mojave is their war-zone.
    Caesar's Legion achieved everything by themselves, without the help of the player.

    By 2281 actually Legion is Ceaser, but he wants make before his death Legion = New Vegas.
     
  16. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    Going back and forth between "Did the NCR do it themselves or did they do it thanks to the Vault Dweller?" is a bit chicken and egg. It's a redundant argument. Yes, if the Vault Dweller hadn't rescued Tandi, she probably would not have been rescued and therefore never reigned as NCR President for all her years. It's the Time Traveler's Paradox, remove the Vault Dweller and suddenly it never happens. But that DID happen, so we move on. But did the Vault Dweller HIMSELF contribute to NCR's greatest accomplishments? No. There's nothing to suggest that the (short lived) peace between the NCR and the Brotherhood was at all brokered by anyone other than the parties themselves. NCR certainly benefited from including the BoS into their fold, but just like the Paradox of removing the Vault Dweller, would their advances have been IMPOSSIBLE without the State of Maxson? Not necessarily. Just like Vault City, Shady Sands was founded by and created from a GECK. We saw that Vault City was a technological marvel because of their utilization of Vault materials and what the GECK provided; all that really stopped NCR from being identical in this regard was the materials of their Vault, and their lack of proximity to it... which brings us to the next Paradox about "what if..?" regarding the Chosen One and the New Khans. Again, whether you remove the first element that laid the groundwork is irrelevant. They contributed, but that doesn't forfeit the NCR's accomplishments.

    Yes, the NCR is ABSOLUTELY in a state of constant Civil War. It's not even hinted at, it's fully explained by many NPCs. Be it the undisclosed, unexplained "Baja Situation", the various raiders who crop up within NCR's borders, and the large conglomerates of the NCR themselves either physically or politically gutting each other. Because of its Republic foundation, lack of cohesion, and the violence of the post-apocalyptic world, there is constant strife within the NCR. It reaches a level that's disgusting when you get to the top of their command structure and you see the rampant corruption. THESE are what Caesar wants to do away with. Whether or not he CAN do away with, or indeed "improve" anything, is a different debate entirely.

    As far as Ulysses' matter... there's no contradiction in what I said about him or what he did, because he WAS a Legionary at some point. WHEN that point took place that he no longer considered himself one is a subject of debate. It could be when he first found the Divide. It could be when the catastrophe struck the Divide. It could have been much, much earlier, but that he still went along with orders for a while, despite knowing he "didn't belong". He never specifies, but he does make clear that, by the time the Courier meets him, he has left the Legion. His actions are formed out of his experiences, which are of course his obsessions that he seeks to teach the Courier. The point of him, however, is that he's an ex-Legionary who is depicted as highly educated, non-bloodthirsting, level-headed, and thinks for himself. Most importantly, that he always was; even when he was still in the Legion. He fell in line, because he recognized that it was the best thing for him and because he had no other place to call "home", but he was never broken, and he never forgot his tribal background. This isn't the case of the Legion "successfully" erasing tribal backgrounds, nor "changing" someone; it's no different than what any army does to its soldiers. They pressure and they intimidate (and the Legion, as many ancient militaries also did, went further with violence) but they don't really CHANGE their soldiers. The Legion (its men) believe in a MYTH of the Legion (the society and its methods) doing away with the weak, making better men, erasing tribal identities, but that's all it really is; myth. People are still people, and those with free will shall maintain it, even after Legion indoctrination. Again, the Enclave example.

    As far as Caesar not changing anything yet addressing that he "include" treating women with respect.... The reason this would never come to pass is not because Caesar doesn't care, but because what he teaches the the Legion to value is not respect. He PERSONALLY respects his adversaries, and if he lives to see the Dam conquered, he has them killed quickly and painlessly. The LEGION, not taught to value respect, but simply to follow their methods that have become reflexive to their nature, will crucify those same men, without Caesar to tell them otherwise. For Caesar to try and change how the Legion addresses women by making it a punishable-by-death law not to "disrespect" women would never work, but respect itself was never instituted into the Legion to begin with. He doesn't PERSONALLY believe that "Might Makes Right" (just as you pointed out, otherwise he wouldn't be at the top), but he advocates a lifestyle that seems to reflect that. As a result, the Legion believes Might Makes Right, and "women are not mighty" becomes their logic when women are already placed on the side to serve as servants and baby-manufacturers. They justify their actions AFTER the fact, not before; it's the other way around with Caesar, at least.
     
  17. Knight Captain Kerr

    Knight Captain Kerr Still Mildly Glowing

    208
    Nov 27, 2011
    I'm with Cass on this one. NCR isn't perfect but it is the best people have. They just need some shaping up to do.

    Shame so much Legion content had to be cut from the game.
     
  18. Mameluk

    Mameluk It Wandered In From the Wastes

    126
    Aug 13, 2012
    Which would, ironically, mean death for Legion ideology as I hardly see soldiers saying no to all those vices Vegas has to offer. Synthesis up your ass, Caesar! :lol:
     
  19. Beavis

    Beavis First time out of the vault

    36
    Sep 7, 2012
    I would say the early part of the game is very pro NCR but I think that was intentional.

    In the early stages the NCR seems like the light in the darkness, brining law and order into a chaotic post apocalyptic world. You do a lot of simple quests for them in the begining helping out the normal people, soldiers and citizens. Then you move up as the game progresses, and as you progress you realize the NCR isn't ideal, they're quite fucked up and only out for themselves so the courier is forced to consider other options. I think they intended for you to start off supporting them and end up being conflicted about them which is why there are so many low level NCR quests


    I think that was the intent at least that as my experience the 3 times I've played through the game, I never wanted to support the NCR after I started dealing with Moore at hoover. By the time you start dealing with Moore you get a clean slate from ceasar and things with house and yes man start getting interesting.
     
  20. Oppen

    Oppen FIXT n°1 fan

    Dec 26, 2011
    I think it makes sense the game is more NCR sided while in places near the NCR, since people tend to be biased by their surroundings.
    When you actually enter places more recently annexed or other non-NCR places, you start getting different opinions, some pro and some anti-NCR.
    Most people tends to be anti-Legion, but that is pretty understandable when you think about it. They came, they fight, and they don't explain a lot. There are a few members of the Legion who actually explains what the Legion is, one of them is Caesar. It makes sense people hate them if they only tend to be exposed to their dark sides. Caravaneers tends to like them a little bit more, because they're exposed to one of their few bright sides, which are safer roads for the people they consider useful to their purposes. Most people don't like House, because, come on, a guy who doesn't get out of his casino and bans entrance to it, and talks only through his robots, which happen to be quite dangerous if you make them angry, is kind of creepy. Or at least, seems to be pretty arrogant. Either he's a psychopath, or is the goddamned Batman. I think most people had no chance to know the path he wanted to take humankind through again, so, again, people is exposed almost only to his dark side. About anarchy... well, let's say most people in the wasteland know the bad, selfish anarchy already, and probably have no idea of even the existence of Yes Man! to help maintain order in an anarchist world, so they're affraid of having no way to survive to raiders. So, you get an NCR sided game, but mostly because you get it through interactions with people in-game, whose opinions are biased because of the way they live.