Stanislao Moulinsky said:
Who says the Vault Dweller did not raise her that way deliberately?
Most annoying Fallout 1/2 plot holes.....
- Thread starter BarbadosSlim
- Start date
Who says the Vault Dweller did not raise her that way deliberately?
BarbadosSlim said:
wait wait wait
i thought vault 13 took the water chip and locked the vault dweller out of the vault after their problems were solved, the vault dweller goes north and starts a village called arroyo, the villagers werent vault 13 descendents, only the descendents of the actual vault dweller (who was the chosen on) were cault 13 descendents, the tribals new everything they knew about the GECK (which had become a legend/fantasy) from what the vaultdweller told them?the vault dweller writes a autobiography and often makes a few references to how stupid some of the tribals are?
Alphadrop
A right proper chap.
alec said:He writes... an autobiography?
Really?
You never read the Fallout 2 manual?
The most annoying thing for me are the gameplay holes for Fallout 2, something Fallout 1 doesn't have.
Some are very clear, like where the hell is sulik's sister, some more subtle like the non existent verti assault team at gecko. The evident lack of a diplomatic option for Vault 15 quest. The empty Brotherhood outposts.
Fallout 2 shouldn't have had a deadline, they should've completed the game.
That's why modern companies like Valve never have release dates.
Some are very clear, like where the hell is sulik's sister, some more subtle like the non existent verti assault team at gecko. The evident lack of a diplomatic option for Vault 15 quest. The empty Brotherhood outposts.
Fallout 2 shouldn't have had a deadline, they should've completed the game.
That's why modern companies like Valve never have release dates.
VALVe has lots of money and isn't working on complex roleplaying games.
I d rather liked Fallout 2, probably because I first played Fallout 2 and afterwards Fallout 1.
The thing I like about Fallout 2 gameplay in general is that you have a cool evolution in gameplay-environment. You come from a retarded tribal village and fight your way into more and more advanced society, you start half naked with a spear and end up wearing power armour and using a highly advanced pre-war weapon (possibly also the proud owner of a car as well). It s like the post-nuclear american dream
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The thing I like about Fallout 2 gameplay in general is that you have a cool evolution in gameplay-environment. You come from a retarded tribal village and fight your way into more and more advanced society, you start half naked with a spear and end up wearing power armour and using a highly advanced pre-war weapon (possibly also the proud owner of a car as well). It s like the post-nuclear american dream
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Nothing wrong with the Arroyo thing. There are indeed alot of possibilities how it ended that way. (bare the shaman and the silly plants)
New Reno is a different kind of beast tho. Alot of it could make sense if it would be THE major trading hub in the wasteland. (whores,gambling,drugs etc.)But a chop shop ? porn videos ?
And please dont mention the Mobsters or Yakuzas please or I have to cry.
New Reno is a different kind of beast tho. Alot of it could make sense if it would be THE major trading hub in the wasteland. (whores,gambling,drugs etc.)But a chop shop ? porn videos ?
And please dont mention the Mobsters or Yakuzas please or I have to cry.
Vault Maker
Vault-Tec Cartographer
Tribals in northwestern California make perfect sense. Just look at what goes on there in the real world.
1. The most likely bands of survivalists up there are pot growers (armed with machine guns and land mines), and old hippies living on communes. The hippies can grow the food, and the growers supply the pot and the defenses.
2. Once the war starts, the kids going to Humboldt State College can't get to Burning Man, or even go home to whatever part of the state they came from, which is fine with them. Most of them only went to Humboldt because it was so easy to get that smelly green stuff. That's (unfortunately) not a joke, or even an exaggeration.
3. That culture has been there for a while, so besides the locals, even the local governments are really into sustainability, DIY, and off-grid things like solar power, bioengineered sewage treatment, and even building solar powered treehouses made from pallets and old Volkswagen vans, with bioengineered toilets.
It's basically already like Arroyo. It just needs brahmin and a few Vault expatriates. There's plenty of Hakunins there already. Though maybe the spore plant spikes ought to be smokeable.
1. The most likely bands of survivalists up there are pot growers (armed with machine guns and land mines), and old hippies living on communes. The hippies can grow the food, and the growers supply the pot and the defenses.
2. Once the war starts, the kids going to Humboldt State College can't get to Burning Man, or even go home to whatever part of the state they came from, which is fine with them. Most of them only went to Humboldt because it was so easy to get that smelly green stuff. That's (unfortunately) not a joke, or even an exaggeration.
3. That culture has been there for a while, so besides the locals, even the local governments are really into sustainability, DIY, and off-grid things like solar power, bioengineered sewage treatment, and even building solar powered treehouses made from pallets and old Volkswagen vans, with bioengineered toilets.
It's basically already like Arroyo. It just needs brahmin and a few Vault expatriates. There's plenty of Hakunins there already. Though maybe the spore plant spikes ought to be smokeable.
Fair enough, but... have you ever made a character in FO2 that had, say, Big Guns, Energy Weapons and Science tagged? Well, me neither, but such a character still can be made. Now how could the primitive Arroyo folks who scorn technology have taught them that? I know, there are a lot of possible explanations, like your character sneaking out of the village for days to see the technological wonders, yeah. But still, it sounds weird.Tagaziel said:
On the other hand, you were spot on about why there's little crime in Arroyo; it's related to them being a community in which there is little variety of trades - basically, everyone hunts and cooks. With specialisation come social differences, economic differences and then your evil relations. This is all, though, derived from technology which makes it easier for the people to fulfill their basic needs, thus relieving some from their hunting-and-cooking duty, giving them time to specialise in different stuff. I'm not sure if that was what the Vault Dweller has dreamed of after getting his butt kicked from V13, though, given that a random draught can simply kill his posterity off. I'd still take the water chip.
I was slightly disappointed with the tanker quest in SF: just NavCom part and FOB FTW. I mean, isn't it plausible that the tanker could have been undocked and steamed to the platform without assistance of the NavCom? You'd just have to find a good navigator and the correct coordinates of the platform plus some software/electrical hacking skills to reroute controls ...
thegaresexperience
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
There's a book that follows a community's descent into tribalism after WW3. I forget the name of it though (I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in the Fallout Bible).
The community was a military base, so they had at least some tech and know-how (like vault 13), but after awhile what with the breakdown of machnes and such, they hae to learn to be self-sufficient. When you think about the Arroyo in those terms, it makes sense.
and the spirit worshipping could be people trying to justify what is happening to them and to try to raise morale. plus i think for some people it helps to think that someone else controls their life
The community was a military base, so they had at least some tech and know-how (like vault 13), but after awhile what with the breakdown of machnes and such, they hae to learn to be self-sufficient. When you think about the Arroyo in those terms, it makes sense.
and the spirit worshipping could be people trying to justify what is happening to them and to try to raise morale. plus i think for some people it helps to think that someone else controls their life
DirkGently
Still Mildly Glowing
@Kuj2: I would chalk up being able to tag energy weapons, science, etc to a natural affinity for that kind of stuff, which is what I would consider all the tag skills. You just naturally 'get' that stuff and you're better at it from the start and more adept at learning it.
I don't think that weed farmers are the ones with machine guns and landmines though. I think that's more of a coke-importing cartel thing.
The Yakuza don't make a lot of sense, but I can get the 'mafia' style family. Through whatever surviving means of old american lifestyle that slip through the radioactive cracks, I wouldn't be surprised if the concept/style of the mafia slipped in or if it become popular. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the family were descendants of one of the old families. Hell, the mob is a huge part of the reason that Vegas is the way it is. Maybe a remnant of it hid out in a vault or other shelter (Or maybe their own shelter) and over the course of the years the situation in New Reno became what it was.
The dirt/spirit worshippin' tribals i can dig though. Even if the majority of the people founding Arroyo were V13 members, once they had kids, they probably were too worried about surviving, and establishing themselves to bother teaching their kids a whole lot of nonessential science/skills, quickly making up stories about spirits and things to placate the kids and provide morals and shit to educate them.
I don't think that weed farmers are the ones with machine guns and landmines though. I think that's more of a coke-importing cartel thing.
The Yakuza don't make a lot of sense, but I can get the 'mafia' style family. Through whatever surviving means of old american lifestyle that slip through the radioactive cracks, I wouldn't be surprised if the concept/style of the mafia slipped in or if it become popular. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the family were descendants of one of the old families. Hell, the mob is a huge part of the reason that Vegas is the way it is. Maybe a remnant of it hid out in a vault or other shelter (Or maybe their own shelter) and over the course of the years the situation in New Reno became what it was.
The dirt/spirit worshippin' tribals i can dig though. Even if the majority of the people founding Arroyo were V13 members, once they had kids, they probably were too worried about surviving, and establishing themselves to bother teaching their kids a whole lot of nonessential science/skills, quickly making up stories about spirits and things to placate the kids and provide morals and shit to educate them.
There are a lot of annoying things in Fallout 2. When you talk to Lynette in Vault City the conversation path can go:
"How do you know of the GECK? What... huh... you're from a vault? But we've... we've never seen/met/communicated with another vault before... how can this be?"
Or it goes like this:
"Oh, you're from vault. We used our GECK already, sorry."
It's extremely weird that in one conversation path she is amazed that you are from a vault and then in another it's completely uninteresting and unsurprising.
"How do you know of the GECK? What... huh... you're from a vault? But we've... we've never seen/met/communicated with another vault before... how can this be?"
Or it goes like this:
"Oh, you're from vault. We used our GECK already, sorry."
It's extremely weird that in one conversation path she is amazed that you are from a vault and then in another it's completely uninteresting and unsurprising.
Well, when she finds out you're not actually from a Vault, I guess her interest drops a bit...
memetics
☢ Mysterious Stranger ☢
Topic = tough question to answer. On the one hand, Fallout 1 is better-plotted and more tightly-written than Fallout 2. On the other hand, one of the key elements of Fallout 2 is those pop-cultural references, which are writ large all over the game. F2 is just a different kind of game than F1, despite the similarities. Maybe they just carried the jokes a lot farther, but I think it's more than that.
In a sense, with Fallout 2 the player is being invited to see each city as its own little vignette with its own theme, only loosely connected to the rest of the game by the post-apoc thread. Kind of like a series of short stories that aren't linear or interconnected tightly like the chapters of a novel, but stories that happen to have some of the same characters or settings: some more-minor thing connecting them, making them seem like they belong in one collection. Think about how Jay and Silent Bob tie all of the "Clerks"-type movies together (the writing / dialog style also provides such "glue" there). Or more like a Quentin Tarantino movie that has all kinds of nods and allusions to other movies or genres more broadly: the movie itself more or less has a plot thread that follows from beginning to end, but the major chunks / scenes of the movie each make more sense within themselves than they do as pieces of the larger work.
Overall, I found Fallout 2 very entertaining when I got into the tongue-in-cheek spirit; I loved seeing the Tardis and the Guardian of Forever. Still, the areas just seemed to disconnected from one another. I prefer the tighter continuity and thematic structure of Fallout 1, because it just feels like a much better-structured and more engrossing story. I cared more about resolving the plot. I didn't really give a rip whether Arroyo dried up and blew away, but I really was keen to save Vault 13, even though it was full of stupid drones. The story itself made me care more.
Mainly because of what I saw as the superior story, I'd love to see Fallout 1 ported over to the F2 engine (and de-bugged). It'd also be great in that line to see new stories that follow a similar vein, with people just starting to exit a different vault far away from the previous game maps (starting in north Idaho, perhaps?) or etc. New challenges, new story line, but similarly excellent storytelling and game-wide thematic continuity. I'd trade in all of the post-Van-Buren Failouts for that!
(Long live NMA and its modders!)
m-
In a sense, with Fallout 2 the player is being invited to see each city as its own little vignette with its own theme, only loosely connected to the rest of the game by the post-apoc thread. Kind of like a series of short stories that aren't linear or interconnected tightly like the chapters of a novel, but stories that happen to have some of the same characters or settings: some more-minor thing connecting them, making them seem like they belong in one collection. Think about how Jay and Silent Bob tie all of the "Clerks"-type movies together (the writing / dialog style also provides such "glue" there). Or more like a Quentin Tarantino movie that has all kinds of nods and allusions to other movies or genres more broadly: the movie itself more or less has a plot thread that follows from beginning to end, but the major chunks / scenes of the movie each make more sense within themselves than they do as pieces of the larger work.
Overall, I found Fallout 2 very entertaining when I got into the tongue-in-cheek spirit; I loved seeing the Tardis and the Guardian of Forever. Still, the areas just seemed to disconnected from one another. I prefer the tighter continuity and thematic structure of Fallout 1, because it just feels like a much better-structured and more engrossing story. I cared more about resolving the plot. I didn't really give a rip whether Arroyo dried up and blew away, but I really was keen to save Vault 13, even though it was full of stupid drones. The story itself made me care more.
Mainly because of what I saw as the superior story, I'd love to see Fallout 1 ported over to the F2 engine (and de-bugged). It'd also be great in that line to see new stories that follow a similar vein, with people just starting to exit a different vault far away from the previous game maps (starting in north Idaho, perhaps?) or etc. New challenges, new story line, but similarly excellent storytelling and game-wide thematic continuity. I'd trade in all of the post-Van-Buren Failouts for that!
(Long live NMA and its modders!)
m-
Phad_Vickers
First time out of the vault
Sorry to revive an old thread, but as I love Fallout2...and think I've got a couple of explanations for Arroyo:
First, I think Arroyo was intentionally so backwards culturally to provide as a foil to Vault13 in Fallout1. You can contrast the two starting communities very easily- Vault13 had no clue about the outside world, while Arroyo live literally off the land. Vault13 had significant technology that could have saved many lives in the wastes (much like Vault City could, but similarity chose not to do so) while Arroyo is exactly the sort of people that requires such aid, and so on.
Second, what happened with the Vault13 founding members and the result seems very similar to Lord of the Flies. It was actually published in the 1950s, and reflects the darker view of humanity that people had following WWII. It's a 1950's take on the future after a third World War- sound familiar?
In it, British children are evacuated by plane from England and are shot down- stranding them on an island, and depriving them of any adults (the pilot is killed). They quickly become savages, forgetting their past lives and technology... instead embracing cannibalistic rituals and worshiping spirits and gods.
Not unlike Arroyo...
First, I think Arroyo was intentionally so backwards culturally to provide as a foil to Vault13 in Fallout1. You can contrast the two starting communities very easily- Vault13 had no clue about the outside world, while Arroyo live literally off the land. Vault13 had significant technology that could have saved many lives in the wastes (much like Vault City could, but similarity chose not to do so) while Arroyo is exactly the sort of people that requires such aid, and so on.
Second, what happened with the Vault13 founding members and the result seems very similar to Lord of the Flies. It was actually published in the 1950s, and reflects the darker view of humanity that people had following WWII. It's a 1950's take on the future after a third World War- sound familiar?
In it, British children are evacuated by plane from England and are shot down- stranding them on an island, and depriving them of any adults (the pilot is killed). They quickly become savages, forgetting their past lives and technology... instead embracing cannibalistic rituals and worshiping spirits and gods.
Not unlike Arroyo...