Movie Thread

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Serge 13, Nov 20, 2011.

  1. Akratus

    Akratus Bleep bloop.

    May 14, 2011
    But I can also say, that I dislike it when you criticize red letter media, whilst ignoring every single episode but that one. I mean, it's perfectly valid criticism, as rlm is very apathethic to hollywood blockbuster movies and superhero movies and this one is both. But still, they have very good knowledge on the movie making process, especially Mike Stoklasa who does the Plinkett Reviews which are simply the most informative reviews ever made.
     
  2. UniversalWolf

    UniversalWolf eaten by a grue.

    Aug 28, 2005
    I think Disney has finally ruined Pixar. Brave was a mess with a mindless Disney template story, and I haven't seen any of the cash-cow sequels they've put out since. That said, there may be some hope if Brad Bird, who directed The Incredibles and Ratatouille, comes back to direct The Incredibles 2. Sounds like there's a good chance. But of course Disney is capable of ruining anything.

    I'll be interested to check out Bird's current project, Tomorrowland, when it opens in 2015.
     
  3. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Level 27 Wizard Staff Member Moderator

    Apr 1, 2005
    I have noticed the comic book "purists" do tend to shape the opinion of movies on the internet. It's happening with Antman right now, in a much worse way. Hank Pym is old? Lang as Antman? Yellowjacket as the villain? Hope Van Dyne? They hate all of it. Half of them hated it even when Wright was going to direct it. Now they hate it because he isn't going to. They hate it because it's trying something different. Why Antman? Why not Black Panther? Because Black Panther isn't vital to what they are telling right now. It's in a different stage of development. It's obviously coming too. Look at where the Avengers 2 plot is going.

    These dudes don't want to hear that. More minorities they say! Well, how about Nick fucking Fury? His role in Winter Soldier MADE that movie. WarMachine is in Avengers 2 now. Sure they aren't lead roles but they do have limited heroes to use that would work. Funny enough Goliath may someday show up in Antman, but not if the reception stays this way. Hell we have Luke Cage coming up on Netflix at least. Oh they just announced Guardians of the Galaxy 2, Doctor Strange, and various other side projects? These fans don't care. They complained that Marvel didn't announce more at SDCC. These assholes booed Peyton Reed at SDCC! Booed him for trying to bring a D lister to big screen. I feel so bad for that guy. I hope he makes them choke on it.

    Then they bicker about Fox, Marvel Studios, and Sony until their faces turn blue. Now I don't care a whole hell of a lot about these newer Spidey movies, or the Xmen franchise blunders, or Fantastic Four, Ghost Rider, Daredevil, and various others, but I do appreciate the effort. I'm glad to be watching the flicks at least, even if to make fun of the dumbass kids in costumes. Heh. Legitimate movie reviewers do have a right to critique these movies the way they do though. Amazing Spiderman 2 is a cash grab. People know it's a cash grab. Sony HAD to make the movie. The same with FF4. Doesn't inspire confidence to say the least. Sure it's a cash grab that is executed decently well, but you will notice they delayed Amazing 3 now. Way back. The reception was lukewarm at best. Even Cap gave Spidey a run for it's money. That is a surprise compared to his first outing, although one can argue the Avengers effect has taken hold.

    Comic Book fanboys are largely assholes on the internet. Of course not all of them. The community is pretty toxic though. They hate everything. That being said, they were right to not like Amazing Spiderman 2. Even if their reasoning was flawed and childish, and I did see some pretty shitty reviews, I think you will find as time goes on it loses it's appeal, as do many of these movies that are decent at first, but progressively worsen as time goes on.

    /endrant
     
  4. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    The nerd community in general is toxic, not just comicbook beardnecks. Altho they tend to be the worst.
     
  5. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Level 27 Wizard Staff Member Moderator

    Apr 1, 2005
    The general lack of knowledge is even worse. Half the people complaining about Antman don't know it's loosely based on "To Steal An Antman". I love these stories too, but I understand that it's a separate fucking universe, just like in the comics. Should they have Hank slapping the shit out of Janet in the movie too? Gotta keep it comic accurate! Give me a break.
     
  6. zegh8578

    zegh8578 Keeper of the trout Orderite

    Mar 11, 2012
    Watching "Gangs of Wasseypur", so far it's not bad, but man, this is my first 5-hour movie for sure.
    Gnnnhhh... okay, wakey wakey, and keep watching!

    (it is divided into two parts, but it is made as a single movie. The split was due to cinemas in India refusing to show movies more than 4 hours in length.)
     
  7. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    5 Hours? Holy Shit, you at least took breaks, right?
     
  8. zegh8578

    zegh8578 Keeper of the trout Orderite

    Mar 11, 2012
    It is two parts, unavailable as one continous piece afaik, so yeah, I took a breather between the two :D Still watching second part... :D
     
  9. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    I have seen them complainning even about comic accurate things. Did you ever watch the Young Justice show? there was a shit storm because they "ruined" "Slade" (Deathstroke) by making him "just a one eyed old man" behind the mask..... yeah....
     
  10. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Level 27 Wizard Staff Member Moderator

    Apr 1, 2005
    Yeah it's pretty exhausting trying to explain things to people. I see debates going on about Guardians plot points already. Try explaining to people that the colors of the gems in the comic don't match the ones in the movies.
     
  11. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    I honestly don't think it was "Cap" on his own at all (but that "Avengers effect" certainly helped the movie a ton). Really, it's more than whether TAS2 was going to be better than what we got, or better than anything else that came out in the same year. It was a question of whether it would clash with ANYTHING Marvel Studios was putting out, and Winter Soldier was coming out. I personally didn't like the first Captain America film at all, it was just... ugh, no. But whether you felt that the next Cap film would be more of the same, or be way better (as Winter Soldier turned out to be) that all fell by the wayside... because "dude it's another Marvel Studios movie!" They stand out from the rest because every new film IS part of an ever-expanding cohesive universe, and they always make tie-ins with each successive film, so ever new outing feels like a major add-on to the existing pieces. Going up against that isn't a bad idea because the individual competing movie is way better, but because it's going up against THE MARVEL UNIVERSE. When the next Superman film comes out, people won't be excited because Batman and Wonder Woman will be tying in the series to some other movies people have loved. This won't be the Nolan Batman, or even the Burton Batman, this'll be something new (again). They'll be building a larger DC universe WITH the coming film, but there won't have been an established series of films that excites the fans like the Marvel Studios films do. So naturally, you just don't wanna go up against that juggernaut right now... that would just be unwise.

    I think the worst (longest sitting) I ever put up with was.... uh.... What was the longest running extended-cut LOTR film? XD Yeah, those. Actually we sat down and watched them ALL at once in a single marathon, which totals to about 10 hours or so? But that's still split between 3 films, and IIRC 5 or so DVDs, so it's not quite the same a single, 5-hour film. At the very least you're getting up to change discs every once in a while. Intermission breaks indeed... XD
     
  12. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Level 27 Wizard Staff Member Moderator

    Apr 1, 2005
    Thanks for pointing out the error. Heh. I missed that in my rant. I agree with everything you said. There is no doubt that all the other characters largely contributed to Winter Soldier, as you said it wasn't just Cap, but that is the thing isn't it? Spiderman doesn't have that supporting cast to really drive things home, not hero wise anyway. These team up movies are becoming the norm. Iron Man had Rhodey. Cap had the Commandos, Black Widow, Falcon, and more. Thor had his Warriors Three...a little anyway. I think Spiderman as a series is suffering because of Sony playing catchup. Avi Arad doesn't seem to be in the same league as Feiger.

    I think Spidey was at his best back in Maximum Carnage. He teamed up with everyone in that. Deathlock, Firestarter, Cloak and Dagger, Venom, and many others. For five movies we have gotten nothing but Spiderman really. No Black Cat. No Morbius. All of his movies have been pretty standard storyline too. Save the city. Save the girl...or not. I know the rights to many characters aren't as Sony. Personally, I think that is a major downside to Spidey as a character. He is so dependant on those supporting roles. Stories in Marvel comics are often better just because Spiderman is in them. Good luck seeing a Moon Knight and Spiderman team up anytime soon. Maximum Carnage would be a great movie. The Sinister Six holds promise, but I foresee very little character development in the villains.

    Venom is going to have his own flick. First question is, Eddie Brock or Flash Thompson? Are they going to go with the Ultimate route? Will Spiderman be in the Venom movie, lose his suit, and then Brock gets it? Will Flash Thompson start off with it, altogether forgoing that plotline altogether? It would be much tidier, but the fans would hate it. Then again when is the last time Brock was Venom? I don't even know really. Would he be a villain in Sinister Six? What villains are going to pop up in Sinister Six? Logically I would think Goblin, Octopus, Vulture, Lizard, Electro, and Rhino, at least from the current info provided. Not my picks for that movie personally though. I would like to see Mysterio done justice. Shocker would be a good throwaway villain for a movie. Here comes the next question. If we have Sinister Six and Venom movies, what is Amazing Spiderman 3 going to be about?

    I for one think they don't even know what the end result will be.
     
  13. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    Well like I said it's the difference of Winter Soldier being a movie within a growing universe of tied-in movies, and TAS2 being a singular sequel without anything besides the prequel to tie itself into. TAS2 did one thing really well with its ending in that it ended in the middle of events, and that trick helped world build the series in just a single scene, which those aforementioned token name drops could add to later on. But it was akin to what the first Marvel Studios film, Iron Man did with its after-credits scene adding an element of "there's more to the story than this", and subsequent films were able to build upon this, whereas TAS2 only has TAS3 to build upon it. No tertiary title coming out in a few months to a year later building upon the universe, just a couple more years till the next sequel.

    Sony definitely shot themselves in the foot when their only course of action 5 years ago was to begin work on a new Spider-Man film and ONLY maintain its licensing of that subset of the Marvel Comics universe, whereas Marvel Studios made gambles with superheroes few people really cared about. I mean, thanks ENTIRELY to the films, Iron Man is a household superhero name, but before the first film? Iron Man was an obscure superhero nobody really cared about, and Marvel Studios' gamble paid off SUPREMELY. The fact that they're going to work on Antman just furthers this point. Besides all that vitriol mentioned earlier, much of the dispute about using Antman next has been surrounding "who the FUCK is Antman?????"

    In the early 90s, superhero films went from not being a thing to being a thing all because of Batman, and the Raimi films revitalized that as a thing when the Schumacher films practically killed it off. But the Marvel Studios films didn't simply ride the wave, they created their own new thing, the "team up films", as you put it. It's more than just encapsulated stories about superhero a vs supervillain b; it follows a particular narrative settled within a constantly-evolving established setting, not developed by prequels but by separate, yet related stories. Because her character was established in Iron Man 2 and The Avengers, Winter Soldier didn't have to waste any time establishing who the Black Widow was, even though she wasn't present in the first Captain America film. The doomed nature of the super soldier program from the first Cap film was established in passing exposition in The Incredible Hulk. One film didn't need to spend much time establishing a premise, because tertiary stories had already established these for them. Sony's "play it safe" strategy of sticking to singular franchises and individual superhero vs supervillain stories is living in the past, and that's hurting their work just as it hurt Nolan's; Everything's gotta be about Oscorp/Gotham...

    Well, among all the complaints that TAS2 wracks up, isn't is striking that "OMG first Goblin wasn't Norman Osborn? LAME!!!!" isn't more prevalent? While I wouldn't like it, it's possible they COULD pull off skipping Brock as Venom entirely, and the fans might not hate it as much as you'd think. I personally favor Brock as Venom, and while he hasn't been Venom for a long time in the comics, I'd say he's the "eternal" Venom, so there's not much reason to overlook his character. I personally like him the most out of all the symbiote wearers, because he's the first (besides Peter, of course) and he comes to truly master his suit, keeping his knowledge of Peter's secrets to himself when he could just as easily go public with them and ruin Peter's life. But he doesn't. His restraint, calculating planning, and viciously preying nature make him one of the most striking nemeses to Spider-Man, possibly more so than Goblin or Fisk. I'd love a Brock Venom, so long as it turns out right, unlike SM3's emo Brock..... *shudder*

    I always operated under the assumption that TAS3 WOULD be the Sinister Six film. Though like I said above, it only hurts the story to cram so much into such a tiny vessel. If Sony had the rights to more names (cause God knows they HAVE the funds to crank out more films if they wanted to) and did even a slight mimicry of Marvel Studio's success with interwoven multiple film stories then each story would be far more interesting. A film focused on Black Cat that openly tied itself to the present TAS franchise would leave watchers wondering how the events would impact Spidey's excapades. A film focusing on a Flash Venom would build that character and add more to the world of the TAS universe simply by existing and acknowledging their connection.
     
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  14. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Level 27 Wizard Staff Member Moderator

    Apr 1, 2005
    Not much to elaborate on since I agree with everything you said. I also have the suspicion that Amazing Spiderman 3 may have the Sinister Six in it, but I'm not a fan of Sinister Six being completely about the villains, as some have suggested, so I'm hoping there is more to it than that. I do disagree with you saying that fans wouldn't mind Brock not being in it much. When it comes to Spiderman, fans are very hard to please. If they skipped Brock altogether you would have the purists in an uproar due to Brock being shafted once already. They would probably think he wouldn't get another chance in movies to shine until the next reboot, which would piss off Venom fans. One important factor to consider is the close ties between Venom and Carnage.

    My ideal story would be a version of the symbiote plotline where Spidey has the black suit, loses it, Brock gets it, later gets defeated, and thrown in Ravencroft right next to Cletus Cassidy. Then you could throw in a stinger scene at the end where Carnage is born. If they wrapped up Sinister Six in the standalone movie they could then do a version of Maximum Carnage for Amazing Spiderman 3. In Amazing Spiderman 3 we would have Black Cat and Venom teaming up with Spidey against Carnage, Doppelganger, and Shriek, at the very least. I would go as far to include Demogoblin and Carrion, if only to show that Spiderman has a pretty interesting rogues gallery. Of course you could simplify and go with a more streamlined version of the storyline, leaving out the extra villains since most of them haven't been used successfully in years. You would have to simplify anyway due to all the other character cameos.
     
  15. UniversalWolf

    UniversalWolf eaten by a grue.

    Aug 28, 2005
    I come at it from a slightly different perspective because I couldn't care less about comic books but I like movies. To paraphrase a review I read recently (sadly I don't recall the author or the movie), I wish they would stop making comic book movies for people who like comic books, and instead make them for people who like movies.

    I also think there's another factor at work in the nature of on-line fan communities themselves. In the absence of a strong guiding will at the top, they can have a profoundly negative impact on any project, be it films, television shows, games, or whatever. That's a larger discussion, however.

    On a different note, for those of you who like The French Connection, I recommend a lesser known early-1970s Gene Hackman movie called The Conversation. No car chases, but it's still really great. I won't say too much more about it because I don't want to spoil it.
     
  16. memetics

    memetics ☢ Mysterious Stranger ☢

    214
    Jan 2, 2009
    My first thought was "What about Serenity - a counter-example, or an exception?" but then I re-read your comment and realized that your "strong guiding will" qualifier (i.e., Joss Whedon in this case) disqualifies the example.

    By definition, being a fan seems to mean being attached too much to a past work to be able to judge a present work on its own merits. So essentially there's no way to do something new that will please everyone in such a group, or even a majority, particularly when there's a generational gap and each generation feels attached to a different part of the franchise (e.g., Star Wars, established super heroes, etc.). Anything that follows will be unable to fulfill fan expectations for the entire fan base of the franchise. They come to the work already divided.

    Basically it seems that to be great and widely accepted as so, a work must be its own thing, in its own space, at least in the audience's eyes, and must be built on great writing (from the writer to the screen writer to the director to the editor), so it can be judged fairly on its merits.

    -m
     
  17. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Some people just become parts of "fandoms" to belong to something.
     
  18. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    I didn't say they could skip Brock entirely and no one would care. I just used TAS2's handling of Goblin and the lack of volatile uproar as an example that, hey, they COULD do something and it might be receive less-hatefully than you might expect.

    The only issue I take with them using Spidey's rogues gallery is that their direction, as mentioned above, focuses on "everything revolves around Oscorp" because of how they've centralized their story. Just as the Nolan DK films were ALL about Gotham- a misanthropic terrorist organization with influence all over the world is single-mindedly hell-bent on destroying Gotham as its crowning achievement -and this simplified a rich universe with colorful characters into a dull, one-note store, Sony's TAS franchise focusing the story through Oscorp makes expanding on Spidey's available rogues gallery pretty tricky to tackle. They could EASILY make the symbiotes another experiment of Oscorp's, as many of theirs have already been militarily applied attempts at human longevity and vitality enhancement, and they could do the same with others as well. But this cop-out can only work so many times before it not only stifles audience suspension of disbelief but makes the film-universe so serendipitous that their awareness of the fourth wall NEVER disappears. Without a larger, colorful universe with an abundance of (ridiculous on their own) causes and sources for superhero/villain creation, a singular mega-corporation practically "manufacturing" super people begs the question, "Why can NO ONE ELSE in the world do anything remotely as revolutionary as just these guys? Why haven't they taken over the entire world already?"

    Hell, if nothing else, comparing how one franchise handles superheroes with another franchise's handling, it makes me a little bit more excited about the next Man of Steel film... XD
     
  19. zegh8578

    zegh8578 Keeper of the trout Orderite

    Mar 11, 2012
    Years ago, well, longstoryreallyshort - I waited for a female friend, who happened to be a.. "supplier of herbs", I was welcome to her private stash, moderate ammounts, and I spent my time there out of convenience (they were family friends, and I was far from home). She was god-knows-where, and I decided to just hang out there untill someone came back. I don't like making myself too comfy in someone elses home, so I stuck to the lil basement tv-room with the stash, and a few DVDs. To pass the time, I decided to simply plant myself in the sofa, and watch LOTR, extended, from start to finish, and then simply begin watching it again once I was done. Needless to say, as day became night, my mind increasingly hazy, and Frodo stumbling up the stupid mountain for the second time, the whole experience was bordering into nightmarinsh.

    In fact, I don't even fully remember how that day/night/morning ended, but I think she finally arrived, and mocked me for having watched LOTR so intensely.

    I have done similar things before, in fact, whenever I consider it in retrospect, it strikes me how utterly pathetic it is :D Just some months ago I downloaded the Matrix triology, just to have it, and out of boredom begun to play and half-watch the first movie, then the second, then the third, then the first again, then the second, as night became morning, morning a new day, day into afternoon, untill I hit a wall of "Omfg if I have to hear Keanu Reeves voice for another second, I'm gonna die on the spot o_-"*

    I have some sleep issues :0
    Amongst other.

    *I feel obliged to add that I have a lot of respect for Keanu Reeves as an actor and person, but there is only so much "Neo" one can tolerate.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2014
  20. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Well, I once had to pick up a friend from the hospital because he had a Panic attack in the middle of a midnight acid trip and ended up walking around the city barefooted for hours. When I first got the call from the Hospital I was pretty worried and went there ASAP, when he told me the story I just couldn't stop makign fun of him. The doctors there were such normies, they were worried because he still was talking too fast and I had to tell them that he was like that sober. Wait we weren't sharing drug stories?