Norwegian Massacre

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by .Pixote., Jul 23, 2011.

  1. The Enclave 86

    The Enclave 86 Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    394
    Jul 5, 2010
    Yeah but your being rather liberal with your defination of Xenophobia, did the Second World War come about because of xenophbia that came from Germany invading Poland. Because it wasn't the act of oppression and gaining power for a facsist state but rather because we just hated the Germans for doing it?
     
  2. Horus9k

    Horus9k It Wandered In From the Wastes

    161
    Jun 29, 2011
    Argumentum ad Hitlerum. The inevitable result of any internet forum debate. The USA invaded Iraq, Viet Nam, and Korea because of Xenophobic reasons.
     
  3. alec

    alec White heterosexual male Orderite

    May 21, 2003
    First of all: Godwin's law, dude.

    And Jesus. Ethnical cleansing. Look it up.
     
  4. The Enclave 86

    The Enclave 86 Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    394
    Jul 5, 2010
    Not being an American I am largely unaware of these conflicts aside from very rudemantry knowledge of their approximate start and end dates.

    EDIT: Everyone knows about the Nazis, that is why they are used so often; why waste time thinking of an original comparison which might require explaining when this one suffices? I don't find a pointless piece of observational humour like "Godwin's Law, entire premise of arguement is null and void" an acceptable answer.

    EDIT: I didn't even say Hitler, in-fact I very deliberately said "Germany" because disacosiation between the two at the time is just denial.
     
  5. Korin

    Korin So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
    Admin

    Aug 6, 2010
    I did an ethnic cleanse once. Ate nothing but curry for a week straight.
     
  6. Horus9k

    Horus9k It Wandered In From the Wastes

    161
    Jun 29, 2011
    Are there Polish troops stationed in Iraq? Did Polish troops take place in the 2003 invasion of Iraq? I guess that makes you pretty ignorant of your country's own international obligations (ie. 'okay' xenophobia because the guys doing it aren't wearing grey and Sieg Heiling to a flag you don't like).

    Using Nazis in any debate is a stifling tactic as debating such a period of time to non-historians (and in many cases actual historians) is like walking on egg shells.
     
  7. alec

    alec White heterosexual male Orderite

    May 21, 2003
    :rofl:
     
  8. The Enclave 86

    The Enclave 86 Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    394
    Jul 5, 2010
    I'm not fucking Polish either, Christ man. Being English I guess I can only use examples of English conflicts...

    edit: Which I did anyway given that Britian declared war on Germany when it invaded Poland.
     
  9. Horus9k

    Horus9k It Wandered In From the Wastes

    161
    Jun 29, 2011
    Another country that partook in the 2003 invasion of Iraq for xenophobic reasons and has occupying troops there.
    Yup, the most ruinous war for England and our Empire the world has ever seen.
     
  10. The Enclave 86

    The Enclave 86 Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    394
    Jul 5, 2010
    Am I comparing anyone's ideals to that of the Nazi Party? No. Did I even mention the Nazis? No, I said Germany because that was the state involved. It was a well known example of a military conflict.
     
  11. Ilosar

    Ilosar Vault Fossil

    Apr 20, 2010
    Never said you did. I said he disagreed with the idea strongly and can't really be seen as the guy who started it, as you implied.


    The difference between scientific interest and fear is semantics? News to me and my dictionary.

    I wasn't talking about Nietzsche, but the gentleman who used (part of) his work to promote one of the harshest political agendas and the worst war in history. And I did read it.

    If you think that's how DNA works I have bad news for ya. Xenophobia is irrational fear of those different, not the reasonable fear of the unknown. Draw the semantics card all you want, it's not the same thing. It exists, certainly, but it's not inherent and inevitable and is not a trait of evolution.

    Except that's the point of this particular experiment, it wasn't done in a cliche laboratory with stark white walls and genetic-engineered mice, but recreated a ''natural'' scenario as faithfully as possible, which is the point of a lab.

    Yeah, I shouldn't have mentioned malaria, I guess. Let me rephrase it;

    Oh yeah, I forgot, Misanthrope. Probably a convenient excuse not to approach anyone, I guess, s/he could give you good nature by talking to you or something, the inferior capitalist pig.

    You try to make a correlation between the popularity and validity of a media on NMA, of all places?

    Now you have me utterly baffled. You just proved my point. And I am sorry your life is so sad, too, especially if you think what you are buying is anything but a product. Love is so fucking wonderful. Best feeling in the world. The fact you don't feel/believe in it doesn't mean it does not exist.

    And you are lecturing me about semantics? My point is not that they all do, but that some do.

    And that would be where?

    Also, bothering to change my nickname to make such an easy and lame pun? Come on, you can do better than that.

    EDIT: Christ, you guys are using xenophobia like it's in fashion or something. WW2 (which barely mentionning does not invoke Godwin's Law, come on) had scores of it, but the invasion of Iraq had at least as much political and rational thinking to justify it. Not that it was legitimate or even useful by any means.

    And hornets destroy a beehive when it becomes a danger to itself and/or occupies it's territory. Not the same thing as just hating bees because almighty DNA says so. Anyways it's not xenophibia snce they are not the same species.
     
  12. Horus9k

    Horus9k It Wandered In From the Wastes

    161
    Jun 29, 2011
    Indeed, if I misread your first mentioning then forgive me, but reread that as it's hardly an easy read.
     
  13. The Enclave 86

    The Enclave 86 Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    394
    Jul 5, 2010
    Indeed it is :?
     
  14. Horus9k

    Horus9k It Wandered In From the Wastes

    161
    Jun 29, 2011
    Yes, this needs clarification in the worst way. Did Germany invade Poland for xenophobic reasons (we can construe the 'Danzig crisis' as a xenophobic episode of sorts) or because of actual international grievances (ie. the desire to create a Greater Germany, plus the uncooperative attitude of all powers involved [which in part was due to the Munich Agreement by our boy Chamberlain and 'The Boss'])?

    I just don't quite get what you were trying to say originally.

    Plus 'Argumentum ad Hitlerum' is a inevitable mention of Nazism, Germany in WWII or any other subjects related therein for reasons that are sometimes not so easy to determine. In many cases it can lead to strawmen.
     
  15. The Enclave 86

    The Enclave 86 Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    394
    Jul 5, 2010
    That Xenophobia is hatred (I always thought that it had to be irrational anyway?) but the reasons Alec gave were:

    "Maybe one hates or fears the other because they are 'stealing' resources."

    and

    "Maybe because their women get raped."

    Saying that both are just Xenophobic surely isn't right? When I was 10 a black kid beat the shit out of me, I would love to return the favour and I hate him but it's not Xenophobia; the fact that he is a different race to me is incidental but the act itself is why I hated him.

    For Alec's example, somebody stealing anothers property is... theft, people fight for their property because they have it, it's not hatred of the other party's creed or race but defense of property.

    edit: or aquisition thereof.

    edit: The Danzig Corridor is xenophobia? Logistical and territorial but not motivated primarily by hatred of Poles.
     
  16. Horus9k

    Horus9k It Wandered In From the Wastes

    161
    Jun 29, 2011
    Typically xenophobia illustrates short term irrational fears of foreigners based on crude examples. The Persians interacting with the Greeks is the first Western example of xenophobia. However the reasoning for xenophobia can be as wide and varied as possible as hatred (a better word is 'fear') can have many origins, some real and some believed. Just because some negro assaulted you and you chose to blame and individual and scorn racism doesn't mean that some other bloke won't pick up the racist banner after a similar confrontation.
    The Danzig Corridor is... what? Come now.

    That many Corridor Germans wanted to leave Poland and join the Reich was done in many cases for xenophobic reasons, some irrational but others quite real (as shown by the Bromberg Massacre). That's why Poland was scared as shit at Germany's mention of holding an international plebiscite in the corridor over what nation its fate should lay with, xenophobia.
     
  17. alec

    alec White heterosexual male Orderite

    May 21, 2003
    Wrong.

    Let's say theer's this country, rich with fossil fuels, and it's inhabited by veiled, religious people who believe in things that make no sense to us.

    Let's say that they say: fuck you, no more oil for you, we need it ourselves.

    You know what's going to happen, don't you? We'll invade them and kick their arses. Steal their oil.

    Now say that said country is inhabited by the same people as us, Aryan (yes, I'll use the word), liberal, "free-thinking", our brothers and sisters actually, equally high on the ladder of technological ingenuity and enlightment. How do you think we'd explain a war with them?

    We'd never wage one. We wouldn't be able to justify it.

    So yes: xenophobia. Always xenophobia. That which is alien is easier to kill.
     
  18. The Enclave 86

    The Enclave 86 Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    394
    Jul 5, 2010
    Because it would be a harder war, I don't think that the leaders of nations and their entire attache are going to look over it because; "Damn, their white like us, guess we'll have to do without." More than likely because it would be a harder war to win, with consequences outweighing the profits.
     
  19. Horus9k

    Horus9k It Wandered In From the Wastes

    161
    Jun 29, 2011
    Well to be fair the Persians and Poles in the examples of ancient Greece and contemporary Germany 'looked' in many instances just like their respective Greek and German counterparts. Xenophobia knows not race necessarily. Racism in the low-brow usage only describes hate/fear over color whereas xenophobia can be based on culture, identity, language etc.

    Alec is quite right in pointing out aptly that xenophobia is the primary mover and shaker and dare I say culture and identity maker.
     
  20. alec

    alec White heterosexual male Orderite

    May 21, 2003
    Hmmm... this leads us far from our initial discussion, wouldn't you say?