"Oh, you just need the right build!"

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In Underrail, Age of Decadence, and maybe even Expeditions: Vikings, along with a slew of other games, when a person hits a bump in those games and asks around for help a common response is "Oh, you just need the right build."

Is this a snag on RPGs or is it a feature? Should a player have to consciously build a character one way to simply advance through the game rather than just having a bit of a rougher time at it? Shouldn't RPGs - especially open world ones - allow alternate paths to get around such bumps?

I dunno. It's just cropped up in my own personal gaming experience (the bumps, not the responses per say) and it's sticking out to me.
 
RPGs tend to attempt to allow multiple paths to resolve a certain issue or quest. As a result, many different "builds" are possible and viable.
However, this does not mean that a fast talking weakass nerd is going to be able to tank and defeat a wrestler in hand to hand combat.

Due to the fact multiple paths are possible, a few archetypes form. You have the brawler, the long range specialist, the scientist, the thief, etc. Diverting from those archetypes tends to be discouraged for less experienced players, as it might leave you unable to pursue at least one of the set solution paths for the main quest.

That doesn't seem particularly unfair, because more advanced players tend to prefer a bigger challenge and are more likely to min-max or metagame.
 
I've to say that I very rarely encounter such arguments; saying people should play these games with the 'right' build. What I DO encounter most of the times, however, is people telling other people not to try and make a jack-of-all-trades build if it's their first playthrough; that they have to make 'focused' build.
 
Danuis said:
In Underrail, Age of Decadence, and maybe even Expeditions: Vikings, along with a slew of other games, when a person hits a bump in those games and asks around for help a common response is "Oh, you just need the right build."

Is this a snag on RPGs or is it a feature? Should a player have to consciously build a character one way to simply advance through the game rather than just having a bit of a rougher time at it? Shouldn't RPGs - especially open world ones - allow alternate paths to get around such bumps?

I dunno. It's just cropped up in my own personal gaming experience (the bumps, not the responses per say) and it's sticking out to me.
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I honestly feel as though in most, if not all games, there's really no point to building anything other than 'THE BUILD', else it can just lead to annoying losses, etc.

Think of Fallout, starting as an unarmed throwing guy.

Absolutely useless endgame, you're going to end up just getting pissed off at being gibbed by mutants.

A lot of the time there's skills which are grossly more effective per point spent.

Think of Deus Ex Human Revolution, hacking is bloody useless, while the 1 point 'punch through walls' perk will give you hidden ammo caches and praxis kits throughout the whole game.
 
Sure, if you start off as a guy who can only throw rocks you will die. I don't think that was ever a bad thing. You use skills like that along with other things. Anybody wanting to go through the whole game throwing spears and grenades needs to reconsider their life choices.
 
TorontRayne said:
Sure, if you start off as a guy who can only throw rocks you will die. I don't think that was ever a bad thing. You use skills like that along with other things. Anybody wanting to go through the whole game throwing spears and grenades needs to reconsider their life choices.
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But that's the conundrum.

If the skill is genuinely close to 'useless', why put a single point into it?

There's 0 reason NOT to just focus small guns/energy weapons in Fallout 1-2, because the game is pretty geared towards that playstyle, while throwing is nigh useless.

Deus Ex HR, why bother with stealth when all the bosses MUST be fought, and thus a stealth character won't have an easy time fighting them?

My current Jenson is basically specced 100% combat, and thanks to how piss easy the game is because the AI is trash, he's now starting to become a master at stealth too!
 
ThatZenoGuy said:
But that's the conundrum.

If the skill is genuinely close to 'useless', why put a single point into it?

There's 0 reason NOT to just focus small guns/energy weapons in Fallout 1-2, because the game is pretty geared towards that playstyle, while throwing is nigh useless.

Deus Ex HR, why bother with stealth when all the bosses MUST be fought, and thus a stealth character won't have an easy time fighting them?

My current Jenson is basically specced 100% combat, and thanks to how piss easy the game is because the AI is trash, he's now starting to become a master at stealth too!
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For more than 15 years now, I only play Unarmed/melee characters on the classic Fallout games. I really enjoy playing like that more than using ranged weapons. Low Intelligence, Low Charisma, Low Perception, Big muscles, Great Agility, Great Endurance and some Luck.
I also tend to not have companions now for some reason, I only get some when I want pack mules.
 
... I like unarmed/throwing builds in Fallout. :s
It's actually pretty strong late-game, it's more weaksauce in the midgame, when you don't have a powerfist or Slayer. And it's super OP when you have Jinxed and get to the late-game.
I would more say that a completely useless build would be gambling/barter/outdoorsman focused.

Also, I haven't played Vikings, but for AoD and Underrail it's not really about having the right build so much as not having the wrong one. Like Black Angel said, you just can't play those games if you spread your skillpoints/feats around and go jack-of-all-trades. And you can't do everything with one build (unless you spend the points extremely precisely and meta-game a lot) and that's fine.
 
Risewild said:
For more than 15 years now, I only play Unarmed/melee characters on the classic Fallout games. I really enjoy playing like that more than using ranged weapons. Low Intelligence, Low Charisma, Low Perception, Big muscles, Great Agility, Great Endurance and some Luck.
I also tend to not have companions now for some reason, I only get some when I want pack mules.
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Low Intelligence is a riot. Very limiting but it's actually (in my eyes) fairly accurate. I mean, would most people in the post-war world want to waste time trying to talk to a babbling idiot who confuses giant green mutants with his mom and can barely speak coherently?

I'm not a big RPG player, however I prefer stealthy builds. I find it much more fun (not to mention it's probably more plausible story-wise) sneaking past enemies without touching them.
 
General response: there's nothing wrong with archetypes, sure. The Thief, the Warrior-Tank, the Ranger, that stuff. In fact if a game provides alternate and viable routes for all of those, it's a great game. I'm just hoping that the presented prerequisite that a player *has* to build a character *one* way to even beat the game or progress past a bottleneck, potentially ruining a whole playthrough, isn't a common thing....
 
Danuis said:
General response: there's nothing wrong with archetypes, sure. The Thief, the Warrior-Tank, the Ranger, that stuff. In fact if a game provides alternate and viable routes for all of those, it's a great game. I'm just hoping that the presented prerequisite that a player *has* to build a character *one* way to even beat the game or progress past a bottleneck, potentially ruining a whole playthrough, isn't a common thing....
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Well, do you have a specific complaint about a game that did that?
 
Risewild said:
For more than 15 years now, I only play Unarmed/melee characters on the classic Fallout games. I really enjoy playing like that more than using ranged weapons. Low Intelligence, Low Charisma, Low Perception, Big muscles, Great Agility, Great Endurance and some Luck.
I also tend to not have companions now for some reason, I only get some when I want pack mules.
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And that's fine, it can, and does work, you can complete the game in theory without even levelling up, get a few EMP grenades to 1 shot the master, and its all good.

Its just that when you get JoeMcNormal, he wants to smash the game, and ranged weapons/energy weapons does that much, much easier to the point that using anything else is a self imposed challenge.
 
PlanHex said:
Well, do you have a specific complaint about a game that did that?
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I can tell you I felt like that in Underrail. People praised it like it was the next (classic) Fallout but, when I tried it, my build apparently sucked because I focused on close quarter attack and heavy armors. I didn't use psionic powers or had any crafting skills.
The advice I got back then was "You need crafting skills so you can get the best equipment" or "Melee is not that good" or "You need to start your game again and build your character better" or "You should invest in a ranged weapon skill too" or "You have your build wrong, you need to get these perks instead of the ones you have" or "LOL heavy armor and melee" or "get psi abilities" or "you need higher intelligence", etc. Basically I have to follow a specific, very rigorous build to play that character, if I deviate a bit or choose one wrong perk, it is game over. And I think that goes for most builds in Underrail, you have to have crafting in almost or all the builds you do, you need to have a specific intelligence value for picking some perks or whatever, you need to have specific perks that you can't deviate for your build, etc.
Let's just say it put me off the game for good (I also have other complaints about it that helped me not liking it). :aiee:
 
Risewild said:
I can tell you I felt like that in Underrail. People praised it like it was the next (classic) Fallout but, when I tried it, my build apparently sucked because I focused on close quarter attack and heavy armors. I didn't use psionic powers or had any crafting skills.
The advice I got back then was "You need crafting skills so you can get the best equipment" or "Melee is not that good" or "You need to start your game again and build your character better" or "You should invest in a ranged weapon skill too" or "You have your build wrong, you need to get these perks instead of the ones you have" or "LOL heavy armor and melee" or "get psi abilities" or "you need higher intelligence", etc. Basically I have to follow a specific, very rigorous build to play that character, if I deviate a bit or choose one wrong perk, it is game over. And I think that goes for most builds in Underrail, you have to have crafting in almost or all the builds you do, you need to have a specific intelligence value for picking some perks or whatever, you need to have specific perks that you can't deviate for your build, etc.
Let's just say it put me off the game for good (I also have other complaints about it that helped me not liking it). :aiee:
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I just started Underrail, this is something I fear, a bit. Though I'm going for a more sneaky thief-rogue like build.
 
Danuis said:
I just started Underrail, this is something I fear, a bit. Though I'm going for a more sneaky thief-rogue like build.
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If you don't really like parts of games where you get stuck a lot, I'd recommend playing Underrail on Easy instead of Normal. Underrail difficulties are honestly a step up from what they should be with Easy being more like Normal and Normal being more like Hard(And Hard being more like impossible)

Also, don't get frustrated if combat doesn't go your way at first. Often times you will find yourself needing to change strategy to get through. That's part of the fun. It's not impossible, it's just making you think on your feet.
 


Literally supposed to be the hardest boss in the game.

I laughed when this actually worked, rendering literally any build pointless.
 
Jogre said:
If you don't really like parts of games where you get stuck a lot, I'd recommend playing Underrail on Easy instead of Normal. Underrail difficulties are honestly a step up from what they should be with Easy being more like Normal and Normal being more like Hard(And Hard being more like impossible)

Also, don't get frustrated if combat doesn't go your way at first. Often times you will find yourself needing to change strategy to get through. That's part of the fun. It's not impossible, it's just making you think on your feet.
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I wouldn't recommend finishing the game tbh, just play it on easy and just youtube deep caverns. Saves a lot of frustration and anger. And play on easy, Normal sucks.

Some games definitely do force you down a path, however some builds are nonsensical that its obvious they dont work. Fallout or System shock or Deus ex 1 are examples of it done right. Underrail is not.
 
I think it happens mostly when someone tries to be P.E.R.F.E.C.T., not S.P.E.C.I.A.L. Right build is then character concetrated on being great in one field or good in few.
 
Supreme Shah Ismail said:
I wouldn't recommend finishing the game tbh, just play it on easy and just youtube deep caverns. Saves a lot of frustration and anger. And play on easy, Normal sucks.

Some games definitely do force you down a path, however some builds are nonsensical that its obvious they dont work. Fallout or System shock or Deus ex 1 are examples of it done right. Underrail is not.
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I've restarted on Easy. Just that alone with my prior experience has made the starting area a bit easier to handle....
 
ThatZenoGuy said:
Think of Deus Ex Human Revolution, hacking is bloody useless, while the 1 point 'punch through walls' perk will give you hidden ammo caches and praxis kits throughout the whole game.
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what

Hacking is pretty much <3 throughout the game and essential for stealth. Are you sure you're talking about Human Revolution?
 
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