Question to the Amis ~ aka Americans.

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Crni Vuk, Aug 6, 2015.

  1. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    I am curious. And bored. Perfect combination.

    So, this is a question to the US users of this forum. How comes boobs make your heads explode but violence is ok? :look:- pretty much how it works with Nazi stuff in Germany, as you can get almost away with everything except for that. I mean it's ridiculous, there was a case where nazis sued an anti-nazi song and it worked because it contained nazi words, so it had to deal with demagoguery or something like that. They must have missed all of the irony.

    With nazis I can undersand it though. History and all. But did the US had something similar with sexuality?
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2015
  2. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Oct 27, 2003
    Its as you mentioned in other posts, we in the U.S. have a crazy fascination with religion, the whole 'In God We Trust' thing.

    Boobs only make conservative jesus folks heads asplode. Your average American is fine with porn. Can't fight the bioloigcal urge ya know. Even those same jesus folks get caught being perverts often.

    The violence is more centered on us as a nation of non-conformity. We don't like being told what to do, we don't like socialism, we don't like Ayn Rand economic policies. We don't like affirmitive action and we don't like people who don't want affirmitive action. We are a nation of contradiction. Hence why it is so fucking hard to get shit done here besides socialism we all can agree on like police, fire departments, roads, mass transit, etc.

    It is the nations obsession with individuality and freedom of expression, all very chaotic.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2015
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  3. Moosick

    Moosick cats

    458
    Jul 8, 2015
    Let's not forget the British aversion to nudity ;) over here we use a bed sheet with a hole in it. And we still use bible oaths in court here, though I don't think much weight or significance is usually placed behind that anymore so much as it's another part of the nonsensical rituals the British justice system gets so worked up about. It does make me laugh how we'll objectify people on page 3 with a tokenistic 'here's what THIS pair of tits thinks about the latest scandal, because that's what you're here for!" but get upset by tame kisses or a flash of a nipple on T.V.
     
  4. Cistern Logic

    Cistern Logic Assistant to Dr. Mobius

    72
    Jul 21, 2015
    You have to look at our history. Who settled our country? All the religious nut jobs that were outcasts from Europe like the Puritans! We are still strongly influenced by the religious right, but we're gradually coming out of it. Each generation seems to get more liberal. Hence, the reason the majority now favor gay marriage. It must truly seem silly and nonsensical to Europeans that the most heinous, violent tripe is okay to put on TV but everyone looks for a stake to burn you on if you have a "wardrobe malfunction" at the Super Bowl half time show. I hope my explanation makes sense.
     
  5. Gizmojunk

    Gizmojunk Half-way Through My Half-life

    Nov 26, 2007
    C.S.Lewis said it best when he carefully described this US phenomena.

     
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  6. Cistern Logic

    Cistern Logic Assistant to Dr. Mobius

    72
    Jul 21, 2015
    And HE was a pretty religious guy! Great post bro. :lol:
     
  7. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Mhmm. Yeah I get what you mean. It's the same with Hitler and Nazis here. Its everywhere forbiden, yet when ever some news paper is making a special about Hitler their papers sell like 20-30% better compared to normal.

    Maybe I should have clarified it, I was more talking about the mass media and the like. The normal american isn't so different from the normal european. May I say political correctness? Yeah. It seems to be a lot more of concern to the mass media in the US though. I mean take our politcians for example. Some have been divorsed several times and it doesn't really hurt their political career as much as it (maybe?) does in the US.
     
  8. AskWazzup

    AskWazzup Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Aug 21, 2008
    Isn't USA the hub of porn?... Hm, maybe not, i forgot about Japan.
     
  9. Stone Cold Robert House

    Stone Cold Robert House Mojave Rattlesnake

    157
    Jul 6, 2015
    Asking current Americans what's wrong with nudity is not really the best approach for a matter which is 100% historical, and as with anything to do with culture, hard to explain solely on current perceptions (because often the current perception isn't the rationale, and people do things naturally once it's internalized on a large scale). You know, and this is pretty relevant in anthropology, that often there doesn't have to be a current explanation for anything... the passage of time makes societies forget why they started doing something and there's so much in the world this applies to. But we can't really connect it to religion, at least as the main reason: shame over nudity goes as far back as Ancient Greece, because only the barbarians were naked in public. At least until the Classical era where nudity became more acceptable during public exercise. In fact, the reason women generally couldn't expose as much skin as the men in western society can be traced down to Spartans allowing both men and women to be naked and compete in nude events, which Athenians saw as barbaric since they only allowed men to be naked during those situations.

    Still while this gives us some perspective over how people see nudity, it doesn't really answer why there are circunstances it's more acceptable than others... and that's more class based, I think. Catherine de Medici held court festivities with topless women and that was seen pretty casually but at the same time, it was considered more appropriate, generalizing broadly in Europe, for a poor woman to expose her breast than a noblewoman - so the queen's servants, for instance, would show their breasts but never the queen herself or her family. That's still partly true today; you have probably seen those National Geographic pictures where pictures of African villagers weren't censored, but naked American or European women were. Social standings among different populations, dig?

    Also, adornment has been used as a sign of status ever since humans started wearing clothes at all. Clothes show how rich or powerful you are and they are the last thing to be taken from the destitute.

    So I don't think it started as a religious thing, much less a Judeo-Christian thing. For one, look at uncontacted tribes - some wear some kind of loincloth or in some way cover the genitals. In ancient Chinese myth, it's said the Yellow Emperor invented clothes (and pretty much everything else). Obviously he didn't, but the point is that his traditional dates are around 2700 BCE so it's reasonable to think that Chinese people have been wearing clothing for at least that long. If you look at the artistic record of China, there's also pretty much no nudes. And I like said on my first paragraph, Greek nudity only became common after the Classical era. Besides, there is the practical aspect - depending on the weather of the region you live in, it might be advantageous to wear certain types of clothes. So societies which made that a tradition ingrained into their culture thrived.

    Let's move on to why violence is accepted, but not nudity. A surprising amount of people say it's due to Puritan tradition, and I don't buy that, because puritan values didn't influence American culture as much as revisionist Victorian history likes to say. (I'm not American, by the way.) It's totally true that America was basically founded by puritans who were too vocal for the British elites, but America very quickly became more influenced by a lot of other different Christian denominations which certainly had more impact than the initial puritans.

    And while I do believe neither nudity nor violence should be censored, unless it's in extremes, there is an important aspect to consider. People (specifically teens) are more likely to engage in impulsive sex acts than they are in impulsive acts of violence. Normal children see violence and they know it's not ok, they know it's fantasy. But they see promiscuity, and the lines aren't so clear. What's the problem with showing sexuality? By itself, and by basic standards, none. But in any place, but particularly in America due to how it developed so much so fast, "another form of control". Teaching social freedom, especially in regards to sex, means that the other social norms will be called into question. Some people may equal this to propaganda and control we'd see in a totalitarian regime... it's not, and I'd smack anybody who made that comparison, but the reality is that this is what the streamlining of cultures leads to (in this situation). Violence, on the other hand, is not only more easily understood as a negative thing, it can also be teamed with righteous fury or whatever other characteristic you tie it to. It's more impersonal. Watching violence on television doesn't make you violent, but watching porn on TV, conditioned (and natural) behavior may get you randy.

    For the record, I don't believe nudity is pornographic. I do believe media shouldn't be ashamed to show naked people unless it's deliberately used for sex appeal. If you show a bunch of guys in a gym shower room, there's no particular reason to hide anything... no particular reason to focus on showing anything either, but if it's appropriate, you shouldn't need to change your production because of one detail. Especially when it goes against logic - how do you explain a woman wearing a bra right after a sex scene? It's not very logical, and that's a case it wouldn't be a problem to show nudity. I saw Ben Affleck's schlong in Gone Girl and it wasn't pornographic or erotic at all, it would have simply been awkward to position the camera in ways that didn't show it considering the nature of the scene. So that's an appropriate showing of nudity in a movie. But my point was to show why we generally don't see much nudity in media, and although you'd need further research for more specific developments, it seems simple enough to understand what led to this perception in global culture.
     
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  10. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Dude, I never expected an real answer. But thx anyway.
     
  11. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    Strikes me as profoundly odd that this post hasn't been crushed by a wave of rads. Very well said, very well understood, TOO many comments I wanted to make were addressed here. Just good stuff.
     
  12. Courier

    Courier Venerable Relic of the Wastes
    Orderite

    Apr 10, 2011
    Because the Neo-Puritans hate anything to do with sex but it's a big part of our culture that violence can be an ok way to solve problems sometimes, which is maybe just what happens when your country is founded on rebellion.
     
  13. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Seed Man Staff Member Moderator

    Apr 1, 2005
    Americans are a bit unenlightened in regards to sexuality and violence. Blame religion. This question has already been answered so I won't elaborate.


    I think the member count is too low to expect upvotes so soon after posting. It seems most people are gone for the summer, or just gone in general.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2015
  14. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Oct 27, 2003
    Violence, as stone cold so eloquently put it, is more about fantasy and coolness. Historically, people know how bad violence actually is yet still glorify it. The victors never have a problem with violence unless they become the defeated so to speak.

    So yea, violence can be both a positive and a negative.

    Nudity and porn are two different things, and as stonecold put it, should be differentiated. However, we have a hard time in the states doing so because of religious and issues of arrogance. In many ways, a large majority of the religious and non-religious american population views nudity as the Romans do. Nudity for the poor and barbaric is ok but for those higher on the 'cultural ladder', giving in to such base desires is considered lacking in morality. They continue to think this even though clearly, sex is something that ALL humans tend to enjoy. Hence the contradictions.
     
  15. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Well now that you mention it, the american mentality seems to be closer to the idea of Clausewitz, war ~ violence, is the continuation of policy by other means where European politics (today) would think about war as ultima ratio - last resort.

    Of course, that is all just more or less on the surface. Behind the "political correctness" of the official politics our people are just the same kind of pigs like everywhere else.
     
  16. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Oct 27, 2003
    I think your leaving out something very important here.

    Our friends across the seas realized that letting the sole superpower do most of the heavy military lifting, offers significant economic advantages at the expense of reduced foreign intervention.

    Without a force projection capable euro army, the EU really doesn't have any effective solution to make policy or to counter a rival nations force projection. However, that is considered an acceptable tradeoff as the money that would normally be devoted to military expenditure is now used for progressive social policy.

    I can't help but feel that european global policy is stated to be out of pure altruism/civilized behavior, while ignoring the many benefits it provides.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2015
  17. The_WitchDoctor

    The_WitchDoctor It Wandered In From the Wastes

    102
    Jun 8, 2015
    I'm not sure what you mean about the whole boobs thing. We love boobs! Well, at least I do. If I had it my way nudity would be legalized. The way I figure it, is the only reason it hasn't been legalized is because some people look like Jaba the Hut.

    Probably because you underestimate Americans.... maybe.

    You're quite right. The USA is the world's leader in production of pornography. Japan is right behind us, if I'm not mistaken. I do believe Germany is #3 but take that with a grain of salt.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2015
  18. SnapSlav

    SnapSlav NMA's local DotA fanatic

    Jul 1, 2012
    Again, these things have NOTHING to do with religion. The Victorian standards have much more to do with naked shaming than any religious foundations. Nudity was commonplace and casual in America because of outhouses, close-knitted immigrant communities washing close in alleys, and many groups that were just totally lax about nudity. These groups were ALSO Christian and Jewish, and simply had no issues with these things. But the concern that nudity was improper was brought to the states through Victorian culture. Other things helped, of course. Indoor plumbing phasing out outhouses and making public display of nudity much less common went hand-in-hand with cultural shifts regarding nudity. But the ever-changing (while still essentially the same thing, at its core) attitude of classism and social segregation made these things change when the perspective of what defined the "better" classes was how "proper" they were, and that became embodied by the stereotype of the Victorian gentleman and lady. There are still an abundance of examples of how that culture shift remains in action, even to this day. While we may be more comfortable wearing t-shirts instead of three-piece suits, we still use antiquated terms like "white meat" and "dark meat" to refer to chicken breast and chicken thigh because "breast" and "thigh" were FAR too risque and considered totally inappropriate, by Victorian standards.

    The standards evolve with the times, the times evolve with the people, the people evolve with ALL SORTS of various considerations. Religion is simply not the one and only consideration.
     
  19. ChildServices

    ChildServices Banned

    319
    May 22, 2015
    OP could have just as easily named this thread "FUCK AMERICA, KILL WHITE PEOPLE"
     
  20. TorontoReign

    TorontoReign Seed Man Staff Member Moderator

    Apr 1, 2005
    @SnapSlav

    No, but it plays a rather large role in the conversation. Especially where North America is concerned. It may have once NOT been frowned upon but that isn't the case today. If it was purely due to Victorian beliefs then the US wouldn't be so special in these regards today. Granted these "values" are slowly giving way to more modern thinking, possibly as more and more close minded/stuck in the past folks die off. If you show the average Pentecostal tits, cock, and pussy they will have a heart attack. Show them The Passion of the Christ and they love the realism. So basically fundamentalist Christians still make up a large part of our country, so you will get a strong push in response to sexuality in any way, shape, or form. These are the people that don't want their kids taught about sex at school usually. They try to shelter their kids from all sexual or deviant acts, then - as was the case with some of the people I knew - they are surprised when their kids turn to sex and drugs to rebel.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2016