Russian-Ukrainian war

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Tagaziel, Feb 28, 2014.

  1. .Pixote.

    .Pixote. Antediluvian as Feck
    Modder

    Sep 14, 2009
    Poland should seize it, surely Polish speaking people living there demand it. :V
     
  2. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    considering their history they should conquer half of Europe and Russia anyway. Pretty much everyone was screwing them at some point. The new polish empire!
     
  3. fred2

    fred2 Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    475
    Nov 2, 2013
  4. zegh8578

    zegh8578 Keeper of the trout Orderite

    Mar 11, 2012
    My understanding of the matter is that they originally intended to fragment (and de-germanize) Prussia, by sharing it between Poland and Lithuania. In other words - it was initially supposed to go to Lithuania, but this became very problematic quickly, since Lithuania is a small country, the Kaliningrad area quite large in comparison, and it proved simply way too costly for Lithuania to adopt all that area, which was very destroyed, and required extensive re-building.
    For a country like Poland, one more destroyed area didn't make that much of a difference, so they gladly accepted the territorial expansions they recieved.

    Since Kaliningrad was best kept fragmented, the part given to Lithuania was instead kept by Russia.
     
  5. UniversalWolf

    UniversalWolf eaten by a grue.

    Aug 28, 2005
    Thanks for answering my question. That makes a certain amount of sense. It's pretty strange to see it on a map though. It definitely looks like it should be part of Lithuania and/or Poland.
     
  6. RetroAmerica

    RetroAmerica It Wandered In From the Wastes

    196
    Feb 18, 2014
    The interesting irony of this situation is that 30 years ago we would not have dared tolerate such behavior from the Soviets, and had they illegally violated the sovereignty of another nation, the West would have brought things to the brink and with a artful mix of military posturing and tough talk would have brought the Soviets back to their senses.

    Unfortunately, once the Cold War ended we began this softer line on Russia looking at it as some form of economic and social backwater whom was better off as the brunt of political jokes(and by all accounts the Presidency of Boris Yeltsin bordered on a very bad one indeed). As we softened our stance and let the Russians to their economic misery and disorder, we began to sow the seeds of the Russians looking for a political strongeman.

    They found that figure in Vladimir Putin. An economic reformer with the soul of an old Communist Party Hardliner. Putin has reinvigorated the Russian Federation and put it on the world stage again, but unfortunately his imperial ambitions of rebuilding the old Soviet Union have created a rather ruthless tyrant who only understands hard currency and force (in many ways much like the old Soviet leadership).

    If we wish to stop Putin and his creeping advance into the former SSR's, then we need to show that we in the West are resolved to use force to counter Russian aggression, and that any act against any sovereign state in which Russia attempts to bully into submission will be met both be economic but military means if necessary, after all Putin doesn't care about strongly worded statements. The only thing that will deter him is forceful action!
     
  7. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    The problem is, as others have put it, Putin NEEDS Crimea, so much so that he has shown a willingness to fight for it. Its akin to backing an adversary into a corner, it will fight all the harder and pull all the stops. As much as the U.S. seems to be the sole superpower, we simply do not live in a world where might makes right is the only alternative. In other words, even for the United States, it can only push its weight around just so much. I think Crimea was simply a test, akin to S. Ossetia and Kosovo. We could no sooner tell the PRC what to do about Tibet or the Ughyar situtaion either. The conspiracist in me believes that the permanent security council members have become akin to a bunch of mafiosi who have decided to work things out at a sitdown in regards to running the world than to just go military crazy.
     
  8. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    depends on the context. Because I think, we would have tolerated it. I mean the Soviets invaded Afghanistan, and no one shed a tear about it. It depends in which corner the shithole happens to be that you invade. Lets say the Soviets would have invaded Finnland. Thirdd world war. lets say they crossed the border to South Korea. Third world war. Retaking Berlin? Third world war.

    It depens how much the people are "worth". The western society is extremly hypocritical. Blow up two towers and the world will cry. But a situation where pretty much 1 million people died and even with the help of the french government. No one cares.

    Let's be honest here. The Soviets ... I mean Russians under Putin, could invade the Ukraine as whole tomorrow and in 5-6 months no one will even talk about it anymore, because the court case of Justin Bieber is more important. I mean I hate to say it, because thats how our world works, but the fate of the Ukraine does not matter really either to Europe or the US. Not their citizens anyway. And that's what counts. Hell, most people dont even know where the Ukraine is.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2014
  9. fred2

    fred2 Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    475
    Nov 2, 2013
    There is nothing hypocritical about it, only reflects reality in which you can't be the world police, the new "media wars" and that knowing how to choose your battles is part of life. Those who don't get achieve nothing.
     
  10. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Eh, I dont know, a couple thousand of dead americans creating a bigger echo then 1 million dead Rwandan people is pretty hypocritical to me, particuilarly when you consider the french involvement in the genocide. The western media, is a bag full of maggots. I hate them. With a passion. They did nothing else then throwing around lies, propaganda and missinformation during the war on the Kosovo war in 1998/99 painting Serbians as some kind of war criminals and ruthless killers that make it a fun of killing Albanians. They have been showing footages from the Yugoslavian civil war from the early 1990s which had nothing to do with the Kosovo war. Just to have more pictures from fleeing people.

    Dont get me wrong. I am sure not proud about my people. I disslike them as well, the nation to say that, for beeing reactionary and backward in their thinking. But that doesnt mean they can be blamed for everything. But its easier to drop bombs on people if you tell your citizen that they deserve it because they are evil. But when ever someone is painting some nation as "the bad guys" or "empire of evil" or what ever it makes me cringe. No nation is simply evil or good.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2014
  11. fred2

    fred2 Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    475
    Nov 2, 2013
    @Crni Vuk, Like some pop start dying creating more echo then hundreds murders\rapes\assaults across the country that become statistical numbers, soon you'll tell me that the world isn't fair :crazy:

    The only hypocritical things here is the suggestion that non-westren media is any better(and arguably far worse, usually representing the human cesspit), just because it resonates with what you believe in certain cases.

    As for Rwandan, as liberal, I hate bleeding heart "liberals" who more in love with the idea being liberal then the reality of how making it happen. Like those politician who rise by pointing everything that is wrong, as oppose to how to fix it. In the real world wars are just as much about logistics, and the day after as some ideology.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2016
  12. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Yourself too? Thats a good start I think! You have to prove it that you will fight ANYONE. Start with your self.

    Otherwise you will be painted as liar.

    Hmm? Is it suddenly wrong to point at something that is yeah ... blatantly silly and wrong? The mass media are doing nothing in educating or briefing the people. Hell in some cases they are even clearly biased to some political side, like for the rupublican or democrat parties.

    Its simply wrong in my opinion that Justin Bibers wedding would generate more fuss then 100 000 dead Africans or Iraquis or what ever.

    Maybe its because I have some experience beeing a Serbian, knowing about the Balkan and its history, growing up in the western world (Germany, and yes I love Germany because its a great nation), knowing not only one society and one view on the world. I just find it so frustrating to see people care more about americans next idol or some drama in the media.

    I know that is how the world works. But that doesnt making it any better.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2014
  13. fred2

    fred2 Where'd That 6th Toe Come From?

    475
    Nov 2, 2013
    I agree with that, most of us (humans) are very apathetically to our surroundings unless it directly effects us or our "interests" circle. You don't need to go as far as Africa to prove that point, just take a walk through the poor part of your city.

    What is wrong\hypocritical of you to pretend that this is new and characterize only the "western" media\nations...
     
  14. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    yeah, it isnt new. I am just saying that no one will care about the Ukraine, even if the Russians would invade it completely, no one here, despite all the sanctions and big talk, would go in to a war with Russia. Not for the Ukraine. Thats the point. Hell, it has droped out of the news here already. Back to buisness as usual!

    Meh. Like always, the ordinary people, be it in the Ukraine, Russia or Europe, are the loosers again. If prices on gas go up. We pay for it (most of us). If the Ukraine gets bullied by Russia, the people there have to pay. If Russia has to deal with sanctions, their people have to pay for it. But Putin? Or our Politicians? Or even the one in the Ukraine? Ooh nooo. They never pay. Its like history always repeats it self. Over and over again. It somehow feels like the Yugoslavian civil war. Where everyone hated each other, and everyone wanted to blame the other side, the Corats the Serbs, the Serbs the Croats, the people in Slovenia, Bosnia. All going in to war with each other. And today? Where are all those politians that loved to throw around their hate speches, that wanted to improve the situation for their nations. No one of them was fighting. Just making money from the civil war, or gaining one way or another power. And has the situation really improved for anyone in the end? Do the serbians have a so much better situation today? Or the people in Croatia? Macedonia?
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2014
  15. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    I had numerous talks about the forming of a one world government with my buddy and its weird that a lot of people see it as a problem. Why so much competition between nations? Hell, why the fuck do we need a concept of national identity? I mean chinese, russian, british, indian, pakistani, fuck that. Why not the Terran alliance. Guess its flawed fucking people needing its various institutions to survive because, at the end of the day, no matter how much we may hate our leaders, its their responsibility to govern because most of us little folk would find it way too demanding.
     
  16. Ninjaz

    Ninjaz First time out of the vault

    3
    Mar 29, 2014
    This is intense as cuban crisis.I really hope that this will be all solved peacefully.One thing that Fallout 2 taught me it is that new aged America is hungry for oil.I don't want to offense nobody.
     
  17. zegh8578

    zegh8578 Keeper of the trout Orderite

    Mar 11, 2012
    Whenever a country experiences peace, war is unthinkable. It is a human conundrum :D But really. Once that country is being bombed, it quickly becomes normal, people are very adaptive. 2nd year into German occupation, people considered it normal, they had their routines, ranging from polite cooperation, to polite disobedience, to deliberate impoliteness, to outright insurgency, and most people knew someone who knew someone who was in hiding, who was being tortured, things like that. As soon as the Germans retreat from Norway, everything the nation has experienced becomes unthinkable again. "War and bombs here? Hahaha, you must be crazy!" untill it happens again.

    Or famously shown in that Michael Moore docu, Iraqi market-place shoppers, who actually laughed at the prepostrous idea of an American attack on their home soil - it sounds ridiculous to them, absurd! Even if they had experienced it just a decade back - but that's my point. Even just a few years of peace, makes war unthinkable.
     
  18. RetroAmerica

    RetroAmerica It Wandered In From the Wastes

    196
    Feb 18, 2014
    The difference is, we could wholly use limited force against the Soviets just to point out that we in the West will not put up with illegal Russian aggression. After all, this isn't "The Great Game" anymore, and we shouldn't simply just play up, but instead actively oppose Russian expansionism and if that requires a use of force, then we should be willing to use force.
     
  19. UniversalWolf

    UniversalWolf eaten by a grue.

    Aug 28, 2005
    I will agree with you on that. The media here in the U.S. demonized the Serbs. Their motivation was really simple. They loved Clinton, and because Clinton was going to move against the Serbs, they had to gin up dislike of the Serbs and make the Albanians in Kosovo into victims. The political right jumped on the bandwagon too, because even though they disliked Clinton, they were hawkish and interventionist.

    Even though the media here has largely moved on to different things, you'll still see Serbs show up in TV shows as brutal war criminals (I'm looking at you, Law & Order, and your bigoted creator Dick Wolf).

    I went to college with some Serbs in the early 1990s. I remember once we were at a bar at about 2 in the morning, just before closing, and the Serbs all started singing their national anthem. Nobody knew what they were saying, an everyone looked at them like they were crazy. This was in Madison, Wisconsin, mind you.
     
  20. DarkCorp

    DarkCorp So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Oct 27, 2003
    @retro

    The most important thing is realising limits/escalation. In todays climate, what Putin did was desperate in my eyes. He practically gave the west and the rest of the world a naughty stick to beat Russia with. He wouldn't make a decison like that lightly. What I am trying to say is even the U.S. can only throw its weight around so far before we start stepping on the toes of others. As Tibet and the situation with the Ughyars shows, the U.S. understands this situation, and, in the situation with the PRC and Russia, will react accordingly (in this instance, we are backing down because I believe our government is testing what we can get away with).

    But yes, this doesn't mean the U.S. wants a competitor either, so in that regard, I do not believe Putin will try to claim anything more. The Soviet Union had its chance to beat out the west and failed. If they attempt to do so again, the west, including the U.S., will be there to stop it. In the most basic terms, its a geopolitical dance to the tune of give and take.

    @Universal

    Know a real nice and pretty girl that is Serbian. Its not a unique stituation in the U.S., but people all over the world tend to get caught up in some kind of nationalistic, moralistic or religious, etc, fervor and esentially, their ability to think logically shuts down. We get the most hate though because we have this damned need to constantly tell the world how morally correct we are when we should just call it like it is. But yea, the serb situation is no different than what happened to the japanese-americans here in WW2, the jews of europe, etc, etc. A lot of hate that should be directed towards the government is generalised and spread evenly on the populace.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2014