Shamus Young talks Fallout 3

Discussion in 'NMA News and Information' started by WorstUsernameEver, Mar 19, 2013.

  1. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    as far as argentinia goes. I think Yugoslavia is an better example of what can happen when the "old" rules colapse.

    people which have literaly lived decades next to each other more or less peacefully started to sudenly murder each other when the war started. All because one of them was a croat and the other a serb.

    I guess the situation depends a lot on the context and history of the place. I guess in an situation like in Fallout I would rather expect ALL people to be dishonest and untrustworthy for example. Just as how I would have expected in the Civill War in yugoslavia from everyone to cut my throat if I told them I was serbian - works the other way as well for the Croat in Serbia. Simply because you can not afford to be wrong here. Contracts? Honor? People going for "order"? What does that mean when someone points with an rifle on your head because you are a croat and his father or brother was killed by one and now he seeks revenge.

    I admier Tagz positive vibe. But I would rather expect from the common man to be dishonest then honest. With saying that, I also believe that as groups people tend to rather go with safety and rules, if possible. Simply because that is what we have in our genes (remember humans are very similar to apes and thus gregarious animal)

    hmmm

    I would not be so sure about that.

    Stanley Milgram: Obedience to Authority Or Just Conformity?

    "Many wondered after the horrors of WWII, and not for the first time, how people could be motivated to commit acts of such brutality towards each other."
    ...
    Assuming people were not utterly convinced on an unconscious level that the experiment was for real, an alternative explanation is in order. Perhaps Milgram's work really demonstrates the power of conformity. The pull we all feel to please the experimenter, to fit in with the situation, to do what is expected of us. While this is still a powerful interpretation from a brilliant experiment, it isn't what Milgram was really looking for.

    Whether you believe the experiment shows what it purports to or not, there is no doubting that Milgram's work was some of the most influential and impressive carried out in psychology. It is also an experiment very unlikely to be repeated nowadays (outside of virtual reality) because of modern ethical standards. Certainly when I first came across it, my view of human nature was changed irrevocably. Now, thinking critically, I'm not so sure.


    I am sure you are used with that experiment. And the many other ones that actually try to find out more about human behavior.

    Again tagz, the examples of people and the things they do to other human beings or just animals is staggering. There are for sure many examples of humans helping each other, building an society, following what we could call "good" morale. But sadly there are just as many negative examples of people committing crimes, violence, rape, thievery and worse things. Explaining it all with "those are psychos" doesn't work obviously. Of course we can not ignore the conditions. Harsh conditions particularly wars and war like scenarios have an very negative effect on human behavior. It shows usually the worst in even "good" humans.

    One thing I believe is for sure though.

    The need for violance, is there. Inside of us. For everyone. It has to be. If only for the purpose of defending our self or our kin from possible predators or even our own species. This "need" for violance is seen everywhere, books, movies, games (particularly games). Many of the basics sell very well, like Sex, and romance, violance and tension. Its not so much the violance alone and it sure doesnt mean that we suddenly enjoy raping someone just because enjoy an porno or that you would enjoy to torture people or animals because you enjoyed Grand Theft Auto. But the idea of violance in an very limited fashion is something that many see as entertaining. Even more so if the violance is used on groups and individuals which are clearly labed as "the bad guy". Most people though are inteligent enough to make a difference between what is fantasy, fiction and what is rea life. But imagine if no book, or move would use "violance" anymore. Boring world no :p
     
  2. Akratus

    Akratus Bleep bloop.

    May 14, 2011
    It takes intelligence to see the mistakes we make, as a species. But it takes more intelligence to see our potential, and to discern those who make an effort to learn from those mistakes. At least, that's my view.
     
  3. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    Crni, I am well aware of the Milgram experiment. However, note that it doesn't exploit our innate aggression, but our innate tendency to follow figures of authority, to instinctively place ourselves in a hierarchy and follow it.

    Besides, why assume the common man is dishonest? Do you assume that the shopkeeper you buy your groceries from, the postman who delivers your letters, the bus driver that drives you and other people etc. are all dishonest people that are out to get you? While there are singular instances of people being liar and cheats, more of them are decent, honest folks.

    This is reflected by statistics. Crime is the exception, rather than the rule, even in the United States with its thousands of prisoners.

    Note that this doesn't say anything about personality. People can be assholes and remain the most loyal, fierce friends one can dream of. And conversely, people who are polite and nice can also be the worst backstabbing pricks you've ever seen in your life.

    Last, violence. Here it is hard to say anything concrete, as there is no way to reliably separate our innate tendencies as a species from the way our culture shapes us. Is our culture violent because we are violent, or are we violent because our culture is violent?
     
  4. gumbarrel

    gumbarrel It Wandered In From the Wastes

    159
    Oct 18, 2010
    *facepalm* You sure as hell get me wrong.

    Fallout 3 got the award because it was the most popular game there. And a large number of people probably thought that it had a pretty good writing compared (key word here, compared to other shit) to some other games they've played that year. Not everyone has played your obscure indie games with oh-so-sophisticated writing, you know.

    And hell, it's not like these awards even matter at all. The Vast majority of people don't give a shit what game got what award. Oh, they will mention the fact when they get in to their little fanboy rants, just so they can win an argument, but in reality, most give two shits.

    That mentality that you describe, the "OMG DIS GAYM HAS SHIT GRAFIX SO IT HAS HIT STORI" doesn't exist, really. I am sure that there are people who don't give a shit about the story and like looking at pretty shader effects, but even those know very well, that graphics don't really matter, when we are talking specifically about a writing award.

    As I said, you are complaining about nothing. You've got your own narrative going on.

    It's not like every serb wanted to kill every croat.
     
  5. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    ah got you now. Yeah well not among gamers, but as far as what some major publishers and developers think of their audience at least. Hence this high focus with new games on action rather then diversive gameplay. Which is why the new Lara Croft game is so close to Just Cause or even better examples, a lot of games follow the footsteps of Call of Duty. Survival Horror is dead. Stealth Shooters (like Splinter Cell 1) dead and so on. Its either about action or action and stealth or action and roleplaying or action and what-do-I-know. So there is in my eyes definitely some tedency in that direction. Publishers believe their audience is simply to dump to find the direction. On maps where you have literaly only one way to go ... (diablo 3 got "quest markers" ... I mean wtf. if there is an more linear game out there then I have not found it yet).

    Dude I am a serb. I know my people. And it was very similar on the other side of the fence. People went bat shit crazy during the civil war in Yugoslavia. Was it everywhere like that? No, sure not. But there, where you had the "war" and armies marching around, it was pure hell. Just ask the people that spend some time in the concentration camps the serbians had like omarska, every fucking serb should feel ashamed and actually apologize for it not because everyone is guility but because they do fucking nothing to actually acknowledge it. Revisionism is such an great thing isnt it. And you can believe one thing. After the war, there have not been many croats left in Serbia. And who could blame them for moving away.

    With people like my bus driver or the baker where I buy my buns? Sure not. I am not some paranoid lunatic.

    But with people I dont know in general? Yes. Seriously, the first thing I think when someone is aproaching my door step with the intention to sell something "how does he want to trick me now in to his contract".

    And the more money is involved in something the more cautious I am. Obviously. You cant tell me you do EVERYTHING on trust and not with security in mind. There are so many ways out there how you can lose money, how some can cheat on you, trick you in to stupid contracts etc. Do I expect from every stranger to screw me? Hell no! But, and this is a fact, given the chance a lot of people do wrong things, depending on the situation. Simply because its so "easy" to do the wrong thing compared to the "right" decision. Like not to sell something to your customers that is of high quality instead of simply telling them that it is.

    I mean hell ... didnt you had recently some issues with an company? About electricity or what ever. There are countless examples of our every day life where we had to deal with things that are either ilegal or barely legal.

    I say, keeping an eye open and expecting the worst but hoping for the best is the way to go. As far as strangers go. You would not believe that maybe, but I am trying to be positive and friendly to everyone. But I am not naive. Thats not how the world works. We do live in an world and society where it is simply easier to do something wrong. Its easier to beat your kidz instead of raising them, its easier to steal something instead of earning it, easier to run away instead of working the problems in your relationship out and so on.
     
  6. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    Skepticism is good and natural. This ensures that both parties held each other up to the same standard and demand quality.

    Don't mistake my point as demanding total, uncritical trust, Crni. I merely point out that humans are naturally predisposed towards order and there is no reason to suspect that every person is a Killer, Rapist, and Thief out to get you.
     
  7. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    of course, I guess at the end of the day you both mopo and you have fair points after all.
     
  8. gumbarrel

    gumbarrel It Wandered In From the Wastes

    159
    Oct 18, 2010
    Oh, so you were pluged in to the a hive mind and you knew exactly what the thoughts and intentions of every single serb were? Get a grip. How old were you back then anyway?

    "I am not a paranoid lunatic" and then you say this? :scratch: If this is seriously true, then this is more of a problem with YOU, not society in general. And you seriously need to deal with this problem.
     
  9. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    If you are not a serbian, then I think I can claim to know a we bit more about "my" people then you do. No offense meant though. I have a lot of relatives there, as my family is pretty big, some have been fighting even in the civil war. What I am talking about here isnt all of the people beeing guility about the war crimes or killing. It is about how the Serbians see the war, its cause and the effects. A large part of the world sees Serbia as the reason, not only becaues of the civil war but as far as Kosovo goes as well. I am not stupid. I know its more then just black and white. I remember the news about Racak and despite of US claims there might have been more behind this then what the officials said, so far that it might be that most if not all of it was fabricated to make it look like an massacre by serbians on albans. The report by an finnish team shows it some new light on it. Though the situation remains still unclear even today.

    What disturbs me when I am comparing Serbia and Germany which had somehow to deal with its past, is the revisionism in Serbia and that it actually doesnt really happen. There is no real try to investigate the whole situation in Yugoslavia from its historical context, in an unbiased manner. Imagine people in Germany would believe the US, Russians (or Soviets to be more clear) would have been all the cause behind WW2. There is simply no real debate. New generations dont care and the old ones simply blame the other side as like Serbia was somehow innocent. Any serious try to review the past does not happen in Serbia. And that is what actually makes me ashamed of my own people and why I see my self more as German then Serbia today.
     
  10. Eumesmopo

    Eumesmopo Learned to love the bomb

    152
    Dec 6, 2012
    I explained to you why is not circular logic back then when I mentioned one of the many reasons why societies can take decisions that contradict the direct desires of all individuals. The only thing going circular here is our conversation.

    In case my position isn't clear: Society is a very different thing from individuals. I believe that individuals are the ones who are the potential full-time douches, society; on the other hand, is to a extent independant from the individual for it opperates on a different order. And society, with it's sets of rules and norms, protects individuals from one another.

    I don't. What I do believe is that laws, cops and jails keep the order, not through magic, but through a working justice system.

    Where do these "factions" recruit their croonies from? What is their source of "uncommom" people?

    Who's using circular logic now? 8-)

    Being "evil" does not necessarily cause social or biological failure for a human. In fact, folks with the "dark triad" personality tend to be quite effective breeders. For example: Geneticists found out that Ghenghis Khan has over a dozen million descendants.

    Money, fun, sex, lulz and the satisfaction of their repressed ids.

    Wat :|

    Killing, raping and stealing can be very beneficial for a individual in the biological point of view, such actions not only it can protect one from enemies, but also give him access to extra resources, inflict respect through fear in others, mitigate excarcity and even spread his genes onward. Obviosly this is very damaging for any society in which such individual is present, but then again; that's the difference between individuals and societies that I had mentioned before.

    Neither is our conversation here. Will you abdicate your authority now?

    I mentioned the work of a renowned forensic psychiatrist (Robert Simon) which explains with many details the reasons why the minds of extremally violent criminals present little difference from the minds of pretty much everyone else. Have you put his work as superior to your own theories about human nature?

    I didn't move the goalposts. I'm just demanding from you the kind of holism you're demanding from me.

    If your definitiong of history is as simple as "the past" and not the discipline concerned with constructing coherent accounts of past cultures based on written and oral records. Yeah, right.

    There is a very big difference between History and Archeology. Archeology can advance to the point where it can answer questions such as: "Did these guys honor their words?"

    Besides. If you take out this "voluntary" part (which archeology can't really tell) there is nothing about this "establishments of order" thing which favors your view rather than mine.

    It pushes us back into that "it's hidden off the map" cliché.

    Enclave's presence is hidden because the plot demands so, before anything else.
     
  11. mobucks

    mobucks As a goof Orderite

    May 22, 2010
    I'm never wrong either.
     
  12. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    You know the Chimpanzee is very close to us, from the genetics. In some cases the genetic differences between males and females is bigger then the difference between us and the chimp. Of course the differences we are talking about are not the same pair of genes. But still.

    And I saw once a report where they showed the behavior of chimps, sometimes one group of chimps goes on a crusade on a different group, even if there is no real reason for it (at least not as far the scientists knew). This is an rare event but it happens. The same reason why chimps sometimes eat meat even though they have no reason to do so.

    I guess the urge for violance exists for many species.
     
  13. gumbarrel

    gumbarrel It Wandered In From the Wastes

    159
    Oct 18, 2010
    This is just wrong.

    We are also "very close" with cats and cows, when it comes to genetics.

    Did you know, that humans often play on these weird machines called "PeeSees" and "konsols", even though they have no reason to? I guess the urge for useless shit exist for many species.
     
  14. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    and your point is?
     
  15. GTRichey

    GTRichey First time out of the vault

    7
    May 24, 2011
    These are being reposted because the host for the series took them all down for some reason or another. So the playthrough was done 3 years ago and is now being rereleased on youtube so that they're available once again.
     
  16. WorstUsernameEver

    WorstUsernameEver But best title ever!

    May 28, 2010
    Apologies then. Brother None passed me the videos to post and neither of us knew they were reposts.
     
  17. Brother None

    Brother None This ghoul has seen it all
    Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Apr 3, 2003
    Yip, my bad.

    Don't think it really matters, seems like it was new to most people here.
     
  18. Per

    Per Vault Consort Staff Member Admin

    Apr 1, 2004
    Now someone searching the News forum for "shamus" and looking at the threads that pop up won't get the impression his final verdict of the game was "good but flawed".
     
  19. WorstUsernameEver

    WorstUsernameEver But best title ever!

    May 28, 2010
    The horror! The horror!