Why don't we have a communist society yet? I mean we could.

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Crni Vuk, Feb 17, 2019.

  1. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Marx was criticising capitalism very harshly yes. But he was not simply rejecting it or aimed at tearing it down and simply destroying it for the sake of chaos or what ever strange ideas you have about it. Yes if you actually read the works you would see that he did leave also positive comments on capitalism. For example Marx acknowledged the fact that capitalism, particularly trough the industrialisation, increased the productive capabilities which also meant a huge progress in terms of goods and technological advancement. Marx hated feudalism and tribalism a lot more than capitalism. People often forget, he was a man of his time. The modern societies and nations have emerged trough the industrial revolution and the rapid social and technological advances. I quote >>In the communist manifesto, Karl Marx evaluates the effects of capitalist economy and society and asserts that it has both positive and negative constituents. Marx states that capitalist economy ends feudal systems, establishes the universe market, develops a more efficient commercialism, agglomerates population, and increases the technological procedure every bit good as communicating on land."<<. Marx saw capitalism simply as a natural evolution trough our history like if you want feudalism or democracy. We might very well one day see a society that works completely different to today. Who knows what kind of society people will live in 100 years, or what type of economy we will have. Just like other forms of societies had their time they eventually dissapeared, like monarchies and feudalism which have been pretty much terminated trough capitalism with new markets that feudalism could not support trough it's inefficiency. It always baffles me that people look at history and read about the vast changes that happend here over time and think, yep capitalism is the only good system there ever was and ever will be! Says who? I am NOT(!) saying we have to get a communist society in the future or something similar to it. But we simply can not know if there might not be something else no one else has yet thought about that might replace capitalism just as how capitalism made feudalism obsolete. That's what progress is.

    However Marx was very critical of the capitalist society as he saw it during his time. He did not only saw the positive aspects but he also saw what it meant for the people that worked in the coal mines, steelworks and weaving mills, did you forgot about them GonZo? People which often used to work farm lands before but have been forced to move in to the cities due to the rapid changes to the society due to the industrialisation. To make it simple, Marx hypothesis was based on his observation that capitalism would create two opposing classes with the workers (Proletariat) which owned nothing on one side and the bourgeoisie as oppressors on the other. This imbalance would at some point meant the workers would rice and simply overthrow the bourgeoisie and seize the means of production. And when you look at how many nations came really close to some social revolutions because the workers had literaly no rights under what would be today seen as robber barons, can you say that a pure and unregulated capitalism was succesfull for the people? Yes we enjoy many of the technological advancements. But many during their time, did not. It is easy to forget what a capitalist society - or something close to it - can look like for many people. Child labour, 16 hour work days 6 days per week, no social security, no workers rights, no pensions, no sick pay or health care almost everything privately owned. People had work during that time and still starved to death which gave even rice to full blown riots, like the Weavers' Uprising in Germany. I quote >>In 1844, several thousand weavers smashed the newly-introduced machinery that had driven down their wages in Silesia. Thereafter, Prussian government repressed them with great brutality. This uprising attracted extensive attention among then German thinkers and writers such as Heine and Marx. <<
     
  2. Hulk'O'Saurus

    Hulk'O'Saurus Still Mildly Glowing

    249
    Jul 10, 2018
    Source, please.

    I'd like to point out that the exact opposite of this statement is also true...

    Also, please bear in mind that I actually did not take a dedicated supportive stance for theoretical Marxist Communism. I already pointed out in the previous post why I don't think it will work. But I also am not too keen on the capitalistic mode of production.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2019
  3. TheHouseAlwaysWins

    TheHouseAlwaysWins Look, Ma! Two Heads!

    363
    Nov 28, 2015
    You should make your posts shorter @Crni Vuk
     
  4. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Or maybe I should not.
     
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  5. TheGM

    TheGM The voice of reason

    Aug 19, 2008
    Crni only post like a normal person when he gets really angry.
    See.
     
  6. Mario_Dweller

    Mario_Dweller It Wandered In From the Wastes

    153
    Apr 9, 2004
  7. Hulk'O'Saurus

    Hulk'O'Saurus Still Mildly Glowing

    249
    Jul 10, 2018
    I don't think this is a bad concept.

    However...

    Speaking of ''irrational''...

     
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  8. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    Funny how it is cheaper to take a trip to Canada, buy insulin there than to buy it in the US.

    And the funniest part is people defending it as "the free market". No. No it's not. How is it a free market if pharma companies write their own bills? It's corruption. That's what it is. It's at this point not eve a question of free markets or what ever if public health care is a good or bad thing. What you have right now with the big pharmaceutical companies and health care companies is a system that's rigged. Rigged in their favour. Trough laws and politicians deciding in their favour and by controlling the market dictating prices.

    I've been looking at what insulin costs here in Germany and it can range from 16 to 30 euros - which are also mostly covered by health care.

    In the US (...)The cost of a vial of the short-acting insulin lispro (Humalog) increased 585% (from $35 to $234) between 2001 and 2015.

    Well if that is the kind of free market people crave in the US ... then I want none of it here.


    Hope this post was short enough for some people.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2019
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  9. TheGM

    TheGM The voice of reason

    Aug 19, 2008
    Fixed. Now if only there was a gif of a scarecrow moving goal posts for his inevitable longform reply.
     
  10. FreedomStalker

    FreedomStalker Still Mildly Glowing

    243
    Apr 22, 2016
    I think this can be solved by rewarding people for working the unpleasant jobs. Not with money but with privileges and status. Money is just one way to reward people. Of course, people are not going to be motivated to do anything unpleasant without gaining more and more. If the job is not unpleasant, they wont need to be motivated. Personally, I think people should just live as tribes, without money.
     
  11. Hoplite

    Hoplite Worth 1/5th of 100 grams of tea

    288
    Oct 4, 2019
    But you give someone privilege and status and you created a class based society again. Great.
     
  12. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Anyone ever read the letters Marx and Engels sent to each other? Cheezus, those are two chucklefucks. No wonder they developed the theories they did.
     
  13. MutantScalper

    MutantScalper Dogmeat

    Nov 22, 2009
    New year, new capitalist scams. Or are we finally going to get rid of capitalism? Capitalism isn't fixing the inequalities in the world, or protecting the environment, or solving any of the big problems facing planet Earth. So it's basically a toxic, harmful ideology.
     
  14. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Neither does communism, but where capitalism is branded a toxic ideology that needs to be dismantled despite having reduced world hunger and poverty to a large degree, communism is just branded "not true communism" and needs to be tried again and again.
     
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  15. MutantScalper

    MutantScalper Dogmeat

    Nov 22, 2009
    Capitalism has never been criticized, we are still being subjected to the same system which hasn't changed since ancient Egypt. Instead of a pharaoh we now take orders from "the markets", "Wall street", etc.
     
  16. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Y'know, I just wanted to look up the current PISA rankings to show that the usually high ranking of Finland has to be a lie, but then I remembered that you are, uh, "differently abled" and not exactly representative of the finnish population. Hopefully.

    /edit:
    "Capitalism has never been criticized". In a thread about communism.
    That takes some serious skill. Chapeau.
     
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  17. MutantScalper

    MutantScalper Dogmeat

    Nov 22, 2009
    I've worked a little as a teacher, I can give you a short synopsis about the whole PISA-ranking situation from the 'grass root' -level, if you wish. There are many factors that influence the learning results in a particular nation, PISA might not be the best way to measure the overall level of education in a country. Teachers don't have it easy in this country, but I'd still say that when it comes to basic education, elementary/grammar schools and pre-school/day care, Finland is still better than Sweden, where they have bigger problems with getting folks to become teachers.
     
  18. Hassknecht

    Hassknecht For hate's sake. Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Aug 16, 2010
    Oh yeah, the finnish system is quite good. The german states often look to Finland (and the scandinavian countries for that matter) for inspiration on how to improve our shitty ranking, but they never quite understand the problem.
     
  19. Crni Vuk

    Crni Vuk M4A3 Oldfag oTO Orderite

    Nov 25, 2008
    By whom exactly?

    The mass media? The politicians in our parliament?
     
  20. Walpknut

    Walpknut This ghoul has seen it all

    Dec 30, 2010
    Capitalism creates inequality and poverty to make a select elite rich, then turns around and says "See? we reduced Poverty and hunger!".