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Discussion in 'General Gaming and Hardware Forum' started by DeadHill, Jul 4, 2017.
When you had never eaten a burger at McDonalds...
The problem with the "you can be friends with everyone" as a complaint about Skyrim vs. Fallout 4 is that it's a fundamentally mistaken premise. IN Fallout 4, there's four factions which are fighting for control of a region and eventually, you have to pick a side (theoretically).
In Skyrim, the factions you join are trades.
There's no reason you shouldn't be able to join the Bards Guild, Warriors Guild (Companions), and Magic College. They're not at war with one another. If you can afford the guild dues and blow up stuff then what's the problem.
In the Stormcloaks vs. Imperials choice, you have to choose by like the second quest.
The problem is that you can join all the guilds even if none of your skills actually represent the guild. You can become the Archmage of Skyrim even if you never put asingle point on mana or any of the magic skills. There isn't much choice of anything when everything has no player requirements. The big problem of having no Level cap, the entire Role Playing part of the RPG is lost.
Don't take this the wrong way but that's always struck me as a passing the buck excuse. The complaint of someone who feels they've been given TOO MANY options. The game doesn't restrict your form of roleplay but you can't state, "oh, but I become the Archmage of the College without any points in magic!" Well, first of all, then WHY ARE YOU ROLEPLAYING A CHARACTER WHO HAS JOINED A MAGICAL COLLEGE? *
If you're playing a character who has joined all of the Guilds and risen to lead them without a good reason that breaks your immersion.
Well...isn't that just a sign you're crap at roleplaying?
If I'm playing a stupid fighter jock the I'm not going to join the Mage's college.
If I'm playing a demonic Daedric worshiping necromancer, I'm not going to join the Companions.
If I'm playing Darth Vader, which I have, I'm not joining the Thieves Guild or Bard's Guild.
* Oh, that's also bullshit as you need to be able to do a mid-level spell in order to join the Mage's college--i.e. a test designed to weed those people who can't do magic out. You can get around that but only by showing proficiency with the Thume. I.e. again, showing you're a powerful magic user.
The game doesn't restrict roleplay, but it makes it so none of the mechanics are condusive towards it. The only roleplay the player can engage in is in made up house rules for themselves.
Why am I playing the Archmage without magic development? Well why doesn't the game make it only accessible to magic oriented characters?
What is the point of roleplaying in a game that doesn't actually react to that and just expects you to play paper dolls with it? Does making any build actually have any actual reward for the player? Why are you putting the effort the game developers didn't put to make the game something it's not?
Walpknut pretty much sumed up would I would say i response. I would add though ;
Think about it in terms of fallout and intelligence for example you can be 'dumb' have low intelligence but then end up fixing computers and stuff like that. The game world reflexs your chose. Of course you can role play the mage guild for example but you can actually play though that with well really using magic at all. I mean never played as a magic character in skyrim (No magic expect alteration) but I still could complete the main quest line even without using magic. I guess stuff like that is small but you sort of get the point. It would be the same is fallout as having a low charisma character being able to talk there way out of every situation. I don't have a problem with this being the way it is in skyrim however the prehaphs should't push the RPG tag so much I guess.
I still like skyrim and enjoy it. It just I wish the RPG elements didn't have to get screwed over so that every play-through can do everything. For me a really good sign of an RPG is replaying the game. Not essential but there needs to be stuff that was added if you where to play though again things would go differently.
My problem with the fallout 4 you can be friends with everyone is a valid point. How can I prove my point ?
Well simple you can literally be friends with everyone till act 3. Meaning you if dont progress to act 3 etc then you will never have to chose and can keep all faction freidly. You can even kill botherhood steel and they will be fine with it same with every faction. That really the problem when you take out the repuatatio system it dumbs it down to much.
Do you not think that having to wait to act 3 in the game to pick a fraction is too long ? When you can already do all the side quests its only the main quests that get locked out ? I never looked this up but never got father in the main quests to when the pyrwden show up because I realised that would set all the fraction of. So yeah it does't really disguise it either
Which isn't a bad thing, IMHO.
So you can roleplay a fighter/mage. Restricting options isn't a good thing and is basically an inhibition to real roleplaying. Maybe you want to be a character who starts die-hard anti-Imperial and evil but because of his encounters is redeemed. Then you can start off Dark Brotherhood Quest and then redeem yourself as an Imperial with the Companions as well as saving the world as a Dragonborn. Maybe you want to be a goody-two-shows who falls to evil.
A bigger toolbox with more options which doesn't restrict thing is why I loved Saints Row.
If the mechanics of an RPG aren't conducive to Role Playing, that by definition is a failure of the design.
And if you are asking me to LARP the game I won't, I rather just play an RPG that is competent at being an RPG.
Sainst Row is only a sandbox for destruction, not an RPG and in several ways is even more limited than SKyrim.
So instead of Roleplaying in a world built to accommodate your character and be reactive based on your decision, you Roleplay in an open world sandbox where all reactivity and character limitations are simply you making a conscious decision for them to be there?
At that point, why don't you just install an Elder Scrolls themed Minecraft mod and Roleplay in that instead. I'm sure it'd give you a lot more freedom.
You can roleplay a fighter mage, if you take extra efforts to build your character in such a way that they have a balance of both combat skills and magic skills.
A good RPG lets the player make there own character, and trusts they are rational enough to stick with the build they made. A game going "Aw shucks, you went too heavy on combat and not enough in to magic, but that's ok, you can play wizards if you want too anyway" is not good practice.
ALSO, it's not restricting options, it's making the world react to the player. Restricting options would be going "You cannot play this build", making the world react to the player is more among the lines of "You can play this build if you live up to the consequences of doing so".
A character should realistically be able to overcome unique challenges if they are skilled in that area, and should be unable to do certain things if they don't know diddly squat about it.
Realistically, a character who knows a lot about magic will advance quickly in an organisation dedicated to preserving/studying magical arts, whereas a character who hasn't learnt anything new about magic since they joined will not advance at all, so why not make that the case in the game? Treat the character like they are an actual member of that organisation, expected to do the same trials and have the same qualifications as anyone else hoping to advance through the ranks, instead of just a Mary Sue who can become the leader of any organisation with no effort whatsoever.
Warning: a ton of nerd rage and fanboyism, bunch of strong language, discretion is advised, lol dunno why i said dat.
Let's discuss it.You end up as a fucking God of this puke world Bethesda made, targeting casual, mainstream audience, with the PC being a Listener for the Brotherhood, a Harbinger, a person who saved the world, yet he didn't have a single fucking reason to do so, an Archmage (who could as well be a Barbarian, who doesn't even know how to spell MAGIC) etc. The MQ FORCES you to be a fucking superhero-ish Mary Sue, who only cares about everyone but himself and this has bad writing ALL over it. You can't even reject becoming a leader of a particular faction, unless you don't do the quests. Remember Fallout 2? Do you remember what it had? Good choices with consequences. If you helped one faction in Reno, the others would rape your anus unless it (and your face) was hidden behind a fucking walking tank... I utterly hate the fact you are turning Bethesda's oversights and bad choices into pluses, because truly they are not. I am sorry for essentially starting drama but I really had my inner butthurted arrogant cunt bursting a few last couple of days and the more I think about Skyrim's praise, the "Scrolls" incident, the policy of giving review copies (if any) to overly positive cretins who also get paid for being less critical thinking than a pineapple, overpricing DLCs etc.
I just hope Todd Howard and the rest of the studio choked on their profits and would fucking die out already.
Phew, that helped.
Yeah, I disagree.
But to each their own.
We had thid discussion how many times on this forum by now?
PRETENDING to role play is not role playing.
No one in the whole world of Skyrim really acknowledges the 'role' you're playing. Every schmock, as long it's the player, can join the mages guild, become the archmage, the master thief of the thiefs guild and the uber-leader of the companions and any other guild you can imagine in Skyrim. This isn't role playing, it's simply and adventure game. That's like saying that you're role playing a 'meele character' in Call of Duty, because you're never using anything else but a knive to kill your oponents, which is a very strange way of looking at games.
Yes, you cannot have a computer roleplay for you. You can only do it yourself.
You can but why would you want to? You can be a completititonist and play for the experience but don't blame the fucking game for doing it that way.
Uhm ...? What. I do not even know how you ... came up with that from what I said.
What has this to do with a computer, if NPCs and the mechanics of the game acknoledge the choices you as a player consciously made?
Let me ask you something, did you ever played games as a child with other children? You know, the kind of "Cowboys vs. Indians" type of games? If you did, have you really seen many cases where a lot of Indian Cowboy Sherifs have been runing around?
Since you're saying that you're a writer, I would expect that you above all actually understand what a 'narrative' is and how it actually shapes a person or character. When it comes to a role playing game on a computer, it really does not only depend on what you do as a player, but in which way the world and mechanics is dealing with restrictions. While Morrowind is certainly not a perfect game, it did a relatively decent job when it came to the factions, showing the limitations and how difficult it was to actually join all factions, since a few of them engaged in open hostilites for example. But there is also Fallout, as someone already mentioned New Reno, how believable would this mob war be, if you simply joined all of the factions? Or if joining one family, wasn't properly adressed by the other families?
You can like Skyrim, I actually did enjoy the game for what it was, but role playing is really not role playing, just beacuse you can join a certain faction. That's simply not enough. Any good RPG really needs a reasonable and sensible use of mechanics and limitations on to the player, otherwise how is a choice meaningfull, if it has no consequences?
Why do you intend on playing a role playing if you're a completionist? if you want to get the full experience, start a new character and make different decisions? How is the games fault, if you don't like the outcome? Like shit! I killed my quest giver ... now I am hated by this faction ... THIS GAME SUCKS!!!!! That's seriously the typical mindset of the Beth fan these days. And that's something Todd even complained about with Fallout 1 and 2, that your 'actions' could block you off from quests ... no shit! If you piss of some faction, you can't .... join them anymore. What a terrible concept!
What you want, isn't a role playing experience you want a open world/adventure game. This is fine, Skyrim is actually that type of game. But that doesn't make it necessarily a great RPG. Because contrary to popular belief, an RPG is actually a very narrow and niche type of game - it always was. Obviously in the last 20 years or so, it became more and more diluted, by games which borrowed RPG mechanics, while not beeing RPGs at their core. But that still doesn't change the fact, that if you're looking at the history of RPGs, that one major aspect is the choices and consequences, both in mechanics and the narrative. You can (usually) not become the jack of all trades.
No, but you can have a well designed digital world which is reactive and allows different ways to achieve your goals.
The difference between Roleplaying and playing with Barbie Dolls is that Roleplaying is playing in a world that reacts to your choices, where there are set limitations, and certain ways a character can use things they are skilled at to achieve there goals.
Because a good RPG tries to make the experience differ based on what build you have, so a different character can help contribute to different things.
If the only way to make the RPG experience feel reactive is to consciously ignore content you aren't supposed to be doing, then it is very well the game's fault. The game made a conscious choice to favour completionism over reactivity, and we should acknowledge it made that choice, and the consequences that come with it.
So dearest CT. Why can't you go and apply for President of the United States of America? Or become chairman in Zenimax? Or sit as director of the next Avatar movie? Because in an actual living world that has a society in it, you can't do whatever you want. People will tell you to fuck off. You'll be pushed around, and it'll be physycally impossible. And hell, you even could do it after a lot of effort and subterfuge. And then face the trouble that such things actually are.
In Skyrim? You become Archmage in a gameplay hour. No questions asked! There aren't even magical exams or challenges or whatever the fuck. There are no magic "checks" in the game unless it somehow is "bring your retarded viking to work" day.
Only an idiot would charge a spear weilding dude against giant monsters and shotgun weilding bandits.
Once you get enough levels and gear, you start to steamroll everyone.
To be honest thats any fallout game. All of them have a harder early game that requires more thinking on the players part and by the mid to end they are king thick dick of fuck you mountain. Wish that wasnt the case and the difficulty held up tho, even if they arent really that hard to begin with.
IIRC the lore, before Oblivion and Skyrim retconned everything to be generic and lifeless, mentioned how Cliff Racers drove Dragons away from Morrowind.
Here's a quote from the wiki that cites a book that does not really say anything to that effect:
Here's a pre-Skyrim statement on what the dragons did to cliff racers:
EDIT: In short, Cliff Racers FTW!
Anyone given too much freedom in a game that does not possess realistic limits will inevitably do something that breaks the role-playing in order to squeeze more content out of said game. The game should be imposing restrictions and allowing you options based on how your choices and how you've built your character. Any normal player would be unable to restrict the urge to join every faction for whatever reason and any so-called role-player would have to force themselves to do so rather than play naturally and discover how their choices have consequences. That's not natural role-playing, that's creating rules for your playthrough (like what people do to forcibly vary their experience in other games i.e Melee only runs of Deux Ex 1 and the like).
In fact, Morrowind did this the best out of all the Elder Scrolls games. You could join most factions but you will always face minimum requirements in order advance in those factions so no instant Archmages for inept magic users ala Skyrim plus choosing some factions will lock you out of others (i.e the Great Houses and the Fighters/Thieves Guild though the latter can be exploited in order to gain access to both factions).